Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Rhellion]

3 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

some sort of confirmation from @Forestreveries and Ben Johnson that it is. 

 

reread the updated FAQ. They reversed the rule.

[Mirage8112]

4 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

reread the updated FAQ. They reversed the rule.

thank christ. back to the debate of the merits of -2 rend vs 3 extra attacks...

[Nico]

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I'm still looking through the FAQ and the posts here.

That FAQ is pretty harsh with regard to "as if it were the movement phase". But that's why we have fAQ. Sometimes RAW does not get RAI across. Still  brutal nerf tho and pretty much makes Gnarlroot our main battalion for competitive play (with Winterleaf being a close second.) I'm still sort of sure dreadwood could be used, but not as I intended to play it.  

As to retreat, looking at some of the wording, it's my bet that if they ruled on that you wouldn't be able to use it to retreat at all. Most of the clarification seems to be that the core rules are more iron-clad than I thought; with phases being more restrictive of what you can do. Based on that I agree with you now that retreating "is only a move". But now the "what is a move" question seems to imply that only "regular moves" allow you to retreat. 
 

It's a potential Pandora's Box. Now you need to check every single ability (on your target and on your Warscroll and any external buffs and debuffs) to see if they are phase-dependent or not.

For example Kurnoth Hunters have a (special case) rerollable save from the start of the charge phase (this is Fanatics' temporal realm incidentally) until the end of the turn - so that wouldn't work in a deemed combat phase in the hero phase against Kunning Rukk melee combat. To be fair, that one hasn't changed, but there are better examples elsewhere.

If Dryads hypothetically could do an attack in a deemed combat phase in the combat phase, then their Enrapturing Song wouldn't work.

Wrathbros only give their Crimson Haze buff in the combat phase, so melee Kunning Rukk wouldn't get +1 attacks each in a deemed combat phase in the Destruction hero phase. More significantly, Bloodfury only works in the combat phase, so if you killed the Wrathbros in a deemed combat phase, then they don't get to pick one of your models to attack with.

It's a really major change!

If you get a buff to your run in the movement phase, that wouldn't work if you ran in a deemed movement phase in the hero phase.

It's basically a global nerf to certain combos and a buff to Kunning Rukk, funnily enough the net effect is to buff the least combo dependent army with the best troops in the game, who might that be....

Spoiler

Stormcast.

As far as I can tell, none of the Kunning Rukk Arrer Boy buffs actually suffer from this change (Damned, Bellowing Shout, Reroll 1s to Hit, Spirits Spell +1 to hit, Exploding Attacks on 6s - since none of these are phase-dependent; whereas some defences to pew pew probably will suffer.

For example the Bad Moon Icon of Grots is limited to the shooting phase, so it wouldn't protect Moonclan Grots (+1 save normally) against Kunning Rukk shooting in a deemed shooting phase in their hero phase, but would do so in the later shooting phase.

I hope there's a DoT related reason for this change.

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As to retreat, looking at some of the wording, it's my bet that if they ruled on that you wouldn't be able to use it to retreat at all. Most of the clarification seems to be that the core rules are more iron-clad than I thought; with phases being more restrictive of what you can do. Based on that I agree with you now that retreating "is only a move". But now the "what is a move" question seems to imply that only "regular moves" allow you to retreat. 

Good stuff. Thanks. 

I don't want to retrigger the debate, but with a firm separation of moves and set ups, it would simply be a matter of (am I near enough to Wyldwood A?), then set up the models in a valid position near Wyldwood B, then roll on the table (so a self-contained code).

The position of enemy models around Wyldwood A is irrelevant. Enemy models near Wyldwood B would limit where you can deploy or they could be Gryph Hounds. This assumes that the Wyldwoods aren't next to each other for simplicity.

It gives Kurnoth Hunter pew pew another string in the bow (pun intended), but they've just a lot of their in-Sylvaneth value in the Free Spirits battalion. The right to attempt a charge on a 9 is nothing to write home about. 

There's still the thorny (puns just flying) question of whether they are overpowered as mixed order quasi-artillery. Then again, they are only movement 5 outside of allegiance (and major faff to bring an Ancient to possibly summon a Wyldwood and then another one etc.).

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All these FAQ's seem to have gone against us. 

At least Wyldwoods are in a sensible place. 2-lines or Les Martin Clumps. Some people were clamouring for maximum 1 Citadel Base.

• Death have been nerfed on at least 4 fronts (sometimes with good reason, e.g. to fix the Tomb Herald exploit, but with side effects, nerfing Neferata, Mannderp and Nagash).
• Moonclan, Gitmob, Tomb Kings, Greenskinz, Spiderfang maybe have all lost their battalions or made them more complicated and less competitive. The Gitmob one is definitely dead in the water now as the Wolfboss doesn't exist in Gitmob.
• Fanatics were nerfed (it's not clear how much).
• Chaos Talisman has been re-written to buff it (not re-interpreted).

 

 

[Mirage8112]

17 minutes ago, Nico said:

It's a potential Pandora's Box. Now you need to check every single ability (on your target and on your Warscroll and any external buffs and debuffs) to see if they are phase-dependent or not.

For example Kurnoth Hunters have a (special case) rerollable save from the start of the charge phase (this is Fanatics' temporal realm incidentally) until the end of the turn - so that wouldn't work in a deemed combat phase in the hero phase against Kunning Rukk melee combat. To be fair, that one hasn't changed, but there are better examples elsewhere.

If Dryads hypothetically could do an attack in a deemed combat phase in the combat phase, then their Enrapturing Song wouldn't work.

Wrathbros only give their Crimson Haze buff in the combat phase, so melee Kunning Rukk wouldn't get +1 attacks each in a deemed combat phase in the Destruction hero phase. More significantly, Bloodfury only works in the combat phase, so if you killed the Wrathbros in a deemed combat phase, then they don't get to pick one of your models to attack with.

It's a really major change!

It's tricky indeed. thankfully it's an across the board change, so it's not just us. 

 

23 minutes ago, Nico said:

I don't want to retrigger the debate, but with a firm separation of moves and set ups, it would simply be a matter of (am I near enough to Wyldwood A?), then set up the models in a valid position near Wyldwood B, then roll on the table (so a self-contained code).

The position of enemy models around Wyldwood A is irrelevant. Enemy models near Wyldwood B would limit where you can deploy or they could be Gryph Hounds. This assumes that the Wyldwoods aren't next to each other for simplicity.

I think we've covered this topic pretty extensively. I'm just mentioning that I've changed my position on the matter. 

My original position was that you could use Navigate the realmroots to get out of combat, but it counts as retreating. After looking at the FAQ I'm more inclined to think you cannot use it to get out of combat, because the only way you can get out of combat is to retreat and it seems the only way to retreat is to move. I know your logic that it's a set-up and not a move, but if moving is the only way to get out of combat then you can't use a "set-up". 

Their ruling that "as the movement phase" essentially means "the phase is the phase", and retreating is definitely phase dependent. So forest folk and stormcast teleports which happen in the hero phase are definitely not retreats, since retreats are explicitly a requirement of the movement phase. 

I'll add that I'm not 100% sure on this. Maybe 55/45 between our two interpretations. You can either use it to get away and still shoot, or you can't use it; its unclear.

 

[Nico]

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It's tricky indeed. thankfully it's an across the board change, so it's not just us. 

Yep. In fact, we're probably a net beneficiary as most of our -1 to hit debuffs are phase-independent - Dryads and Briarsheath (except Stomp obviously); and Oaken Armour and the reroll 1s buff are phase-independent. 

One muppet is going to end up writing down a list of all the phase-dependent abilities and it will probably end up being me....

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Their ruling that "as the movement phase" essentially means "the phase is the phase", and retreating is definitely phase dependent. So forest folk and stormcast teleports which happen in the hero phase are definitely not retreats, since retreats are explicitly a requirement of the movement phase. 

That's an interesting angle that I'll have to think about.

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My original position was that you could use Navigate the realmroots to get out of combat, but it counts as retreating. After looking at the FAQ I'm more inclined to think you cannot use it to get out of combat, because the only way you can get out of combat is to retreat and it seems the only way to retreat is to move. I know your logic that it's a set-up and not a move, but if moving is the only way to get out of combat then you can't use a "set-up". 

It's definitely moving in my direction, but it could still be clearer. I've asked a specific question for the purposes of Heat One only.

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

Navigate Realmroots is a set-up not a move. It triggers Gryph Hounds for example! All my arguments still stand.

If anything the fact that these new FAQs start off by referring very expressly to "move" and are very specific to "moves" and have a prominent table of "moves"; and the "set-up" rule hasn't been touched at all reinforces my key point that the rules of the game are designed to put a bright line between moves and set-up rules (at least on an initial reading).

 

I'm not convinced really. Setting the unit up somewhere seems to me to be a type of ability which makes you move (of the unit is already on the table). So while there seems to be a subset of rules for the set-up action.. I think set-up actions of units that are already on the table will fall under the bigger header of moves.

 

Anyway no clumping wildwoods means I'll probably just use 2 of them in most cases.

 

PS did I miss a ruling on moving over wood bases/trees/holes etc?

 

[Mirage8112]

No, you didn't miss it. It's didn't make it into this round of FAQs. Prob the next one though.


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[Nico]

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I'm not convinced really. Setting the unit up somewhere seems to me to be a type of ability which makes you move (of the unit is already on the table). So while there seems to be a subset of rules for the set-up action.. I think set-up actions of units that are already on the table will fall under the bigger header of moves.

I don't see how you can make a distinction between set up in the context of a teleport and set up in the context of a unit coming on from the Celestial realm. Have you read the FAQs on page 2 - particularly the What is set-up one?

There is no doubt whatsoever that the only thing stopping you from Vexilloring a model to being adjacent to an enemy unit is the fact that it expressly states in the rule that you must set up more than 3" from the enemy. Camo Skinks have long been known to be able to set up adjacent to an enemy unit and do it repeatedly over the course of the game (although they have to go off the table for a turn in between as I recall). The Changehost of Tzeentch is perhaps the best example of a unit on the table being set up where the models can touch the enemy if they want to; and they can conga up to 9 inches as they like (although query whether Tzeentch Daemons really want to teleport into melee - Sky Sharks maybe....). It might get a bit more use in a month's time.

The lingering and diminishing doubt in relation to Navigate Realmroots stems from (a) the "instead of moving normally wording" which is somewhat ambiguous and (b) the fact that this ability unlike the Vexillor operates in the movement phase.  

[Nico]

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PS did I miss a ruling on moving over wood bases/trees/holes etc?

This is considered to be a consequence of the core rules on scenery and such - I genuinely don't care about the details on that one as it's such a tiresome debate.

I suggest don't fight it - embrace it, use the Wyldwoods to block enemy Stonelords and Maw Krushas (try landing that dinner plate without a helipad) and so on. It's a double edged sword as Sylvaneth monsters are also blocked in a similar way. 

[Aezeal]

15 minutes ago, Nico said:

This is considered to be a consequence of the core rules on scenery and such - I genuinely don't care about the details on that one as it's such a tiresome debate.

I suggest don't fight it - embrace it, use the Wyldwoods to block enemy Stonelords and Maw Krushas (try landing that dinner plate without a helipad) and so on. It's a double edged sword as Sylvaneth monsters are also blocked in a similar way. 

I don't want to play it one way against this opponent and different against another. I want a clear rule so I know how to play it

[Jamie Ferguson]

To change tack ever so slightly, is anyone having much luck against the Warrior Brotherhood stormcast formation?

 

im really struggling with it, it's easy to kill it all but not before it's outscored you considerably. 

 

Has as anyone come up with a good plan/tactic/unit choice to take them on? 

[Aezeal]

33 minutes ago, Nico said:

I don't see how you can make a distinction between set up in the context of a teleport and set up in the context of a unit coming on from the Celestial realm. Have you read the FAQs on page 2 - particularly the What is set-up one?

There is no doubt whatsoever that the only thing stopping you from Vexilloring a model to being adjacent to an enemy unit is the fact that it expressly states in the rule that you must set up more than 3" from the enemy. Camo Skinks have long been known to be able to set up adjacent to an enemy unit and do it repeatedly over the course of the game (although they have to go off the table for a turn in between as I recall). The Changehost of Tzeentch is perhaps the best example of a unit on the table being set up where the models can touch the enemy if they want to; and they can conga up to 9 inches as they like (although query whether Tzeentch Daemons really want to teleport into melee - Sky Sharks maybe....). It might get a bit more use in a month's time.

The lingering and diminishing doubt in relation to Navigate Realmroots stems from (a) the "instead of moving normally wording" which is somewhat ambiguous and (b) the fact that this ability unlike the Vexillor operates in the movement phase.  

Which FAQ exactly?

[Nico]

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To change tack ever so slightly, is anyone having much luck against the Warrior Brotherhood stormcast formation?

 

im really struggling with it, it's easy to kill it all but not before it's outscored you considerably. 

 

Has as anyone come up with a good plan/tactic/unit choice to take them on? 

Never actually faced it, although I did defeat Sam the Slayer when he was using a non-battalion Stormcast army at Rain of Stars. I would have thought that Sylvaneth could deploy largely in the Hidden Enclaves and trade unit for unit, so drop something weak, score with it, then let them counter it with something hopefully more expensive. You should take a single drop army, as WB might be slightly more than 1 drop, depending on what they have. Is it only 2 heroes in the Battalion?

Other than that, the -1 to hit debuffs of the army are a big friend vs Retributors. You need to do better target selection than they have, so not enough Stormcast models to kill your healing heroes and your Dryads against Paladins (just a 4+ save no rerolls) chipping away, ideally you double turn them and get the drop on them with Dig Toys like Durthu activating first against a big block of Paladins (hitting them on the end of the line of models.

It's hard. 

[Nico]

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Which FAQ exactly?

The Offical FAQ (the main one), page 2, left and right columns. The set-up rule is unamended.

[Jamie Ferguson]

It's certainly tricky. Drop for drop isn't ideal I find because they can easily drop anywhere and block our access to safe teleporting points. 

They can (with azyros) drop their (usually 20 paladins) 3" away from us but we have to stay 9" from them. It's just something they do so much better than we do. 

That said, killing them is not an issue, it's not hard to take them all off in a few turns but not before they've controlled the objective game to such a degree that you can't catch them in points. 

I honestly can't think of a worse match up for us just now and it's getting to be a very popular build. I suspect it's one of those armies that we'll have to game plan for but I've not seen a way yet. 

[Forestreveries]

To change tack ever so slightly, is anyone having much luck against the Warrior Brotherhood stormcast formation?
 
im really struggling with it, it's easy to kill it all but not before it's outscored you considerably. 
 
Has as anyone come up with a good plan/tactic/unit choice to take them on? 

I haven't played against it either, but I think MSU Kurnoth Hunters is probably a good counter. They have no particularly juicy targets to alpha and nothing is particularly missed if they do take it off.

I've been thinking of running the following

Alarielle

6x3 Kurnoth (4 units with scythes, 2 units won bows)
3x5 Tree Revenants

Even if they drop everything into Alarielle I don't think you're at that much of a disadvantage, 18 Kurnoth still get a hell of a lot of work done.


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

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Alarielle

6x3 Kurnoth (4 units with scythes, 2 units won bows)
3x5 Tree Revenants

Even if they drop everything into Alarielle I don't think you're at that much of a disadvantage, 18 Kurnoth still get a hell of a lot of work done. 

This could work. I just wonder whether it will boil down to the first iniative roll. Also that list isn't viable on 3 places of power, so if no sideboard/dual list, then you've got a problem.

[Jamie Ferguson]

Tonight I tried something similar - Alarielle, wych, ancient, 20 dryads, 5 revenants and 9 hunters all in the gnarlroot to make it a 1 drop army. 

Ultimately I could fight effectively over 2 of three objectives (we played the new escalation scenario) but he could easily contest three. Each turn I attacked and scored but so did he in his. Most of his force was dead by end but the damage was done. 

Perhaps if I'd spread myself out more thinly I could have fought all three objectives but I suspect he'd have easily overwhelmed one side  with his crazy flexibility and then rolled up to the middle. I won the first roll as well so got extra woods down, if I'd lost that initial roll it wouldn't have even been a game.

That said, playing to keep 2 objectives didn't work either so I'll give it a go next time. There must be something better I can do, I gave his army a good kicking but never really felt in with a chance to win it. 

[Nico]

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It's certainly tricky. Drop for drop isn't ideal I find because they can easily drop anywhere and block our access to safe teleporting points. 

They can (with azyros) drop their (usually 20 paladins) 3" away from us but we have to stay 9" from them. It's just something they do so much better than we do. 

Good point.

Next to your models you mean. For example see here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

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Ben’s army comprises a single Warscroll Battalion – the ‘Warrior Brotherhood’. What’s great about this particular battalion is that it allows every unit to deploy using Lightening Strikes. This means you don’t need to set them up on the board and can instead deploy your army within 3″ of the enemy (it’s normally further away than this, but clever placement of the two Knight-Azyros models reduce this)! Paladins are super hitty and can smash most units in a single turn, but what makes them even more deadly is placing them on the board next to a Knight-Azyros and a Liberator squad.

 

[Nico]

Could you go all pew pew Hunters and Durthu and an Ancient, then get 2+ Wyldwoods up far apart from each other and, drop down most of your stuff near one of them in a bunker (chaff walls etc.) on one of them, then once he has overcommitted, Navigate Realmroots everything to the other Wyldwood and then shoot off his Pew Pew leaving his Paladins stranded at movement 4. Probably needs more work as a strategy as he can dump models in multiple places more easily than you can (as you've said). Tree Revenants could be good for this as they don't need to be near a Wyldwood to pipe and can go to a Board edge.

The Maces are just a big pain as not a lot we can do against them and losing 8 Dryads in a unit of 20 is still a big loss, let alone almost losing 2 Hunters and probably the rest of the unit to the other Paladins.

[Jamie Ferguson]

Yes, there's been a lot of discussion around that 3" drop thing. I won't rehash it here but with a general with the reckless ability a 3.5" away drop is probably better than landing base to base. At any rate, assuming they're not a terrible player, they have far better deployment tools than we do and should always have the edge in a trade off drop game. 

Movable bunkers is good, I tried that a bit tonight. Trouble is they don't need to commit anything in any particular turn. My opponent was smartly only deploying enough bodies to score the necessary points each turn. Turn one,  can't score so no drops. Turn 2, prosecutors few liberators, judicators etc. Just enough to score all the points but still with 20 paladins and characters waiting on my committing to a certain area. Turn 3, 10 retributors into top of something to score points. I kill them all and then turn 4, 10 protectors to score again and he's got enough points that even if I max out I'll still be a point down at the end. 

I'm not trying to dismiss your ideas, I really appreciate the brainstorming. Perhaps I need more kurnoth hunters, they were really good and hard for him to shift. Alarielle was excellent because of her speed and she kept the score close but as I say, I never really threatened to win it. 

[Forestreveries]

Tonight I tried something similar - Alarielle, wych, ancient, 20 dryads, 5 revenants and 9 hunters all in the gnarlroot to make it a 1 drop army. 
Ultimately I could fight effectively over 2 of three objectives (we played the new escalation scenario) but he could easily contest three. Each turn I attacked and scored but so did he in his. Most of his force was dead by end but the damage was done. 
Perhaps if I'd spread myself out more thinly I could have fought all three objectives but I suspect he'd have easily overwhelmed one side  with his crazy flexibility and then rolled up to the middle. I won the first roll as well so got extra woods down, if I'd lost that initial roll it wouldn't have even been a game.
That said, playing to keep 2 objectives didn't work either so I'll give it a go next time. There must be something better I can do, I gave his army a good kicking but never really felt in with a chance to win it. 

I p played that list tonight. Was good. Never had alarielle rerolling 1's for armour before. Always gone Durthu over Ancient but this was great too.

7 spells from 3 heroes was awesome.


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

5 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

I p played that list tonight. Was good. Never had alarielle rerolling 1's for armour before. Always gone Durthu over Ancient but this was great too.

7 spells from 3 heroes was awesome.


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

Welcome to joy. I don't refer to a 3+ save as a holy grail save lightly, originally back in the early days of AoS when a 3+ save on a Chaos unit or a Death hero was a near miracle (unless it was a 5 wound Khorne Hero). The 3+ rerolling ones is so good. It's why Dracoth Knights are one of the only good heavy cavalry units. Balance wise, the possibility of getting 35/36 saves is essential to keep low rend 40-60 model deathstar buff stacks from being an autowin (above all else the Kunning Rukk).

 

[Nico]

Regarding Deadly Scenery and the similar but different Wyldwood rules, I read this as a death to a specific model rule (like Hand of Dust) - not an allocation of damage to a unit which then gets allocated to models by the controlling player at the end of an attack. It refers quite specifically to "each model" and "the model is slain". 

So don't make the champion or standard bearer the model that charges onto the scenery as that specific model may die - for example you might be able to charge in with a rank and file dude and pile in with the command group onto the scenery. Hopefully this is obvious/unamimous, but worth flagging here.

Don't let your opponent roll a bunch of dice for all the models on the scenery and then deliberately kill and take off two of the models that aren't even on the scenery (who couldn't make it into combat anyway), which is what some people might instinctively do.

Also watch out for Kairos in these circumstances - changing your charge rolls on Deadly scenery. Destiny dice will not affect this roll, but a Disklord would do.  

[Nico]

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Yes, there's been a lot of discussion around that 3" drop thing. I won't rehash it here but with a general with the reckless ability a 3.5" away drop is probably better than landing base to base. 

Depends on what the context is. Against Fanatics deploying adjacent is a hard counter; and against Skulkers it's a soft counter. Sometimes you want to deploy adjacent to score and sometimes, you need to deploy a hero 3" away on an objective and then charge in order to score on Three Places of Power (setting up on the objective doesn't let your hero tag the objective).