Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Quote

Close combat isn't really an issue. Like I said a T-rev bait trap is aces against CC threats (plus you have 3 units of them filling your battleline. You can easily "double bubble" wrap them which would even protect them from double turns. 

Just to check, is the "bait trap" teleporting a unit of Tree Revenants to 9" away and forming a nice wide line that they need to go around (particularly if there are tree stumps as well) or waste a turn killing?

[Nico]

Quote

 

Gnarlroot/Housold 

Treeman Ancient - Oaken Armour,Gnarled Warrior,Regrowth,General 

Branchwych - Acorn of Ages, Verdant Blessing 

Drycha 

3x5 Tree Revenants 

10 Spite Revenants 

4x3 Kurnoth Hunters - great bows. 

 

I'd echo what was said above. Imagine you come up against a Stormcast Pew Pew list. The second your dudes are in range, they will very happily shoot 3-4 or so models off each of the Tree Revenant units with modes Judicator pew pew and watch the rest pop from Battleshock and pop the Spite Revenants. Your model count will rapidly plummet. Embrace the joys of Dryads - our unsung heroes!

[Aezeal]

If we deploy a wargrove as a single drop are we allowed to put some units (characters) on the table and put others in enclaves off board?

I know it would be risky against certain armies with lots of ranged attacks or teleporters.... but I can see reasons to deploy this way. 

 

Also is a Wych with the range extending artefact and the reaping worth 200 points if you donate him a balewind? Currently I play a gnarlroot list with TLA, Drycha and 2x Wych and find I often, very often cant cast 7 spells. Now I like the acorn the 2nd Wych has... but not sure I like it enough. Options are more troops or giving the other Wych (currently it has the bonus to cast item and throne to boost it's native spell. With reaping and native spell with range item and vortex those spells would have scary ranges 18 and 30 inch.

Anyone tried this?

[DantePQ]

I dount it's worth it, for 200 you can have Teclis who is much better option as he can choose Deepwood Spell as well and his spell is fantastic and work really, really well with Sylvaneth style of play. 

I will try this list out soon 

TLA - Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour, Regrowth

Branchwych - Acorn, Verdant Blessing

Teclis - Dwellers Below

20 Dryads

2x5 Revenants

4x3 Hunters with bows 

and I still have 140 left , so I can more Dryads unit bigger, pick Spite-Revenants or another Tree Revenants unit.  I gave Teclis Dwellers Bellow becasue Reaping isn't that great, maybe I'll just drop Acron of Ages and give Wych Reaping with Silverwood Circlet and give Teclis Verdant Blessing. With Teclis spell almost any big unit/leader is in big trouble as he will be almost useless whole battle. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

If we deploy a wargrove as a single drop are we allowed to put some units (characters) on the table and put others in enclaves off board?

Yes.

You can also deploy it as 5 units (whether on table or in Hidden Enclaves), then 1, then 1, then 1, then 1.

You cannot do 1, 1, 1, 1, 5! See the middle column of the page introducing Warscroll Battalions in every Battletome.

With reaping and native spell with range item and vortex those spells would have scary ranges 18 and 30 inch.

The Reaping Bomb is definitely a thing. However, now you need to cast a 7 to summon the Balewind (which is a huge gamble). It's even worse since you don't have any other (credible) way to use the reinforcement points otherwise.

Roused to Wrath

I've not looked at this spell for a long time. However, a corollary of the discussion about Split and Split again in the Let's Chat DoT thread would be that were you to summon 2 D6 Dryads using a Branchwraith, then (assuming you rolled a 7), then you would have paid 120 in reinforcement points, for which you would now have a unit that you could top up to 10 models (what you paid for), but no further (note this also stops Death from summoning 10 Zombros and then rolling for the banner and getting 6 more). Of course for Sylvaneth, topping up units is a lot harder than with Split or Death. Verdurous Harmony should work (purposively - I know that they haven't technically been slain).

What I have just noticed about Roused to Wrath is that the requirements on the positioning are incredibly generous (which counterbalances the risk of rolling derpily for the number you get). You can set "a unit" up 3" away from the enemy (not 9" away); and fully within a Wyldwood that is within 12" of the caster (this could be an incredibly long distance from the caster, 12" plus the length of two Citadel Woods. Here's the best bit, there's no restriction on the movement of the Dryads thereafter, so they can move and then charge or move and then run (onto an objective for example). A gamble, but could be interesting for objective grabbing. 

[Aezeal]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I dount it's worth it, for 200 you can have Teclis who is much better option as he can choose Deepwood Spell as well and his spell is fantastic and work really, really well with Sylvaneth style of play. 

I will try this list out soon 

TLA - Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour, Regrowth

Branchwych - Acorn, Verdant Blessing

Teclis - Dwellers Below

20 Dryads

2x5 Revenants

4x3 Hunters with bows 

and I still have 140 left , so I can more Dryads unit bigger, pick Spite-Revenants or another Tree Revenants unit.  I gave Teclis Dwellers Bellow becasue Reaping isn't that great, maybe I'll just drop Acron of Ages and give Wych Reaping with Silverwood Circlet and give Teclis Verdant Blessing. With Teclis spell almost any big unit/leader is in big trouble as he will be almost useless whole battle. 

 

No gnarlroot?

And if you delete one unit of hunters you could get Drycha and I really like her.

 

 

On the vortex:

Having dryads as backup to summon instead of the vortex is a good idea. I agree the casting cost of the vortex is a problem but you could take a starseer. Its extra points ofc but it's not useless in itself and it means you can pretty reliably cast it in 2 turns.

BTW. . If the vortex is unsummoned and cast again ... do you pay new reserve points? And if unsummoned.. could you then (last turn) summon dryads from those same points (assuming you had 120 to begin with)?

 

A Durthu next to it would increase its survivability... but makes for an expensive .. but again certainly not a useless .. addition for this scheme (Hell then you should probably go all the way and get 2 sets of wyches, the seer and Durthu and try to just magic the enemy to death.. against MSU it might even work)

[scrubyandwells]

4 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I dount it's worth it, for 200 you can have Teclis who is much better option as he can choose Deepwood Spell as well and his spell is fantastic and work really, really well with Sylvaneth style of play. 

Teclis - Dwellers Below

Sorry to bear bad news but warscrolls lacking the Sylvaneth keyword don't get access to Sylvaneth allegiance abilities like the Deepwood Lore spells. While you can of course take Teclis via Gnarlroot, which does give him access to Verdurous Harmony and still allows you to maintain Sylvaneth allegiance for your army overall, it doesn't give Teclis access to a Deepwood Lore spell because he doesn't have the Sylvaneth keyword on his warscroll. 

[DantePQ]

Yeah I've got Gnarlroot/Household counted in as it is the only way to use Teclis. 

So you guess it's better to field 9 Kurnoth Hunters with Drycha then 12-15 Kurnoth Hunters with bows ?

I've just played with the list above and Teclis once again was star, his ability to immobilize certain unit/model is priceless 

[DantePQ]

12 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Sorry to bear bad news but warscrolls lacking the Sylvaneth keyword don't get access to Sylvaneth allegiance abilities like the Deepwood Lore spells. While you can of course take Teclis via Gnarlroot, which does give him access to Verdurous Harmony and still allows you to maintain Sylvaneth allegiance for your army overall, it doesn't give Teclis access to a Deepwood Lore spell because he doesn't have the Sylvaneth keyword on his warscroll. 

not really 

Deepwood Spell Lore 

"Each Wizard in a Sylvaneth army knows an additional spell chosen from the Deepwood spell lore" maybe there is a FAQ about it but Battletome never states that you need Sylvaneth keyword to get access to Sylvaneth allegiance. 

And even so as I said earlier I don't really need Teclis to cast Deepwood spells as he shines without it anyway.

 

[scrubyandwells]

19 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

not really 

Deepwood Spell Lore 

"Each Wizard in a Sylvaneth army knows an additional spell chosen from the Deepwood spell lore" maybe there is a FAQ about it but Battletome never states that you need Sylvaneth keyword to get access to Sylvaneth allegiance. 

And even so as I said earlier I don't really need Teclis to cast Deepwood spells as he shines without it anyway.

This issue has come up numerous times, including in this thread. The answer to why Teclis / Loremaster / Battlemage / etc. don't get a Deepwood Lore spell is on the 1st and 2nd page of the General's Handbook, and it even calls out Sylvaneth as the example, in particular the bold text:

Page 156 – Allegiance Abilities, Allegiance
Add the following to the end of the second paragraph:

‘The allegiance abilities you choose will apply for the duration of the battle.

When picking your army’s allegiance abilities, all units in a warscroll battalion are considered to have the allegiance listed above the title on the warscroll. For example, the Guardians of Alarielle warscroll battalion includes both Sylvaneth and Stormcast Eternals units, and has ‘Sylvaneth’ listed as its allegiance above the battalion’s title. This means that all of the Stormcast Eternals units in the battalion are considered to have the Sylvaneth allegiance when it comes to choosing allegiance abilities. An army otherwise made up of Sylvaneth units which included this battalion could choose the Sylvaneth or Order allegiance abilities, but the Stormcast Eternals from this battalion wouldn’t benefit from the Sylvaneth allegiance abilities, as they don’t have the Sylvaneth keyword.’

[Aezeal]

49 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Yeah I've got Gnarlroot/Household counted in as it is the only way to use Teclis. 

So you guess it's better to field 9 Kurnoth Hunters with Drycha then 12-15 Kurnoth Hunters with bows ?

I've just played with the list above and Teclis once again was star, his ability to immobilize certain unit/model is priceless 

I'm lacking Kurnoths (only 3) so I couldn't compare directly.. I just know Drycha wrecked face a games. Shooting attack on a 20 model unit.. yes please. Then charge... after battle shock hardly anything left.. and these were chaos warriors. Next turn they where gone , Drycha on full wounds. (Tbh I also had 5 revenants backing her up and considering her 2+ reroll 1 save he decided to attack them killing 3 of them - I'd limited his possible attacks by getting a relatively small surface against his blob)

[DantePQ]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

This issue has come up numerous times, including in this thread. The answer to why Teclis / Loremaster / Battlemage / etc. don't get a Deepwood Lore spell is on the 1st and 2nd page of the General's Handbook, and it even calls out Sylvaneth as the example, in particular the bold text:

Page 156 – Allegiance Abilities, Allegiance
Add the following to the end of the second paragraph:

‘The allegiance abilities you choose will apply for the duration of the battle.

When picking your army’s allegiance abilities, all units in a warscroll battalion are considered to have the allegiance listed above the title on the warscroll. For example, the Guardians of Alarielle warscroll battalion includes both Sylvaneth and Stormcast Eternals units, and has ‘Sylvaneth’ listed as its allegiance above the battalion’s title. This means that all of the Stormcast Eternals units in the battalion are considered to have the Sylvaneth allegiance when it comes to choosing allegiance abilities. An army otherwise made up of Sylvaneth units which included this battalion could choose the Sylvaneth or Order allegiance abilities, but the Stormcast Eternals from this battalion wouldn’t benefit from the Sylvaneth allegiance abilities, as they don’t have the Sylvaneth keyword.’

It still doesn't mean that I can't pick spells from Deepwood as it only cover Sylvaneth allegiance abilities and aretfacts and spell lore aren't Allegiance abilities not only they are not listed as such. Listed as Allgience abilities in Sylvaneth Battletome are :

- Battle Traites 

- Command Traits 

these two are called exactly "Sylvaneth allegiance abilities' Artefacts and Deepwood Spell Lore are not. 

Also there is wording of Deepwood Lore "each wizard in Sylvaneth army" - not "each Sylvaneth Wizard" and as I said above regarding quote you provided "Artefacts and Spell Lores" can't be treated as Allegiance Abilities. 

- 

[scrubyandwells]

8 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

It still doesn't mean that I can't pick spells from Deepwood as it only cover Sylvaneth allegiance abilities and aretfacts and spell lore aren't Allegiance abilities not only they are not listed as such. Listed as Allgience abilities in Sylvaneth Battletome are :

- Battle Traites 

- Command Traits 

these two are called exactly "Sylvaneth allegiance abilities' Artefacts and Deepwood Spell Lore are not. 

Also there is wording of Deepwood Lore "each wizard in Sylvaneth army" - not "each Sylvaneth Wizard" and as I said above regarding quote you provided "Artefacts and Spell Lores" can't be treated as Allegiance Abilities. 

- 

Good lord. 

Think and do whatever you want dude.

For everyone else reading this: I've received first-hand clarification on this issue from the company. And as the person who started this thread, I've also spent a lot of time getting clarification on multiple sylvaneth rules issues from the company and sharing the results here, as others could attest to. It's all in the thread. 

Play however you want, though, as long as the opponent and/or event organizer are cool with it. 

[DantePQ]

Why are you so agressive about this ? I'm not questioning that my way of reading must be right, I just asked by clarification and then your provided FAQ which in this case doesn't mean anything. 

And yes second hand information even if it's true doesn't mean that it's official info. I just asked if there is officail FAQ that could be used to back up what you said nothing else. And your first-hand clarification doesn't mean anything in that context. 

To your knowledge I've used Teclis few times and I've never used him to generate or cast Deepwood Lore Spell but reading rules and GW FAQs literally one could argue that it's allowed to do so and there is no reason for you to be agressive towards players who read it this way. Dude chill a little  bit. 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It still doesn't mean that I can't pick spells from Deepwood as it only cover Sylvaneth allegiance abilities and aretfacts and spell lore aren't Allegiance abilities not only they are not listed as such. Listed as Allgience abilities in Sylvaneth Battletome are :

- Battle Traites 

- Command Traits 

these two are called exactly "Sylvaneth allegiance abilities' Artefacts and Deepwood Spell Lore are not. 

Also there is wording of Deepwood Lore "each wizard in Sylvaneth army" - not "each Sylvaneth Wizard" and as I said above regarding quote you provided "Artefacts and Spell Lores" can't be treated as Allegiance Abilities. 

- 

This is just plain incorrect.

 

Page 106

Largest heading: Allegiance abilities 

Subheadings 

-battle traits

-command traits

-artefacts of power

-spell lore

 

 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Good lord. 

Think and do whatever you want dude.

For everyone else reading this: I've received first-hand clarification on this issue from the company. And as the person who started this thread, I've also spent a lot of time getting clarification on multiple sylvaneth rules issues from the company and sharing the results here, as others could attest to. It's all in the thread. 

Play however you want, though, as long as the opponent and/or event organizer are cool with it. 

No need for FAQ's on this one IMHO..  it's just litteraly in the book.

[SpiritofHokuto]

Let's get back on track. It's fair to say that Spirit of Durthu backed up by a Loremaster is a staple for a heavy hitter. But how about this for getting some mortal wound generation?

 

Treelord Ancient 

(General, Gnarled Warrior, The Oaken Armour, Regrowth)

Branchwych 

(Ranu's Lamentiri, Verdant Blessing)

Drycha Hamadreth

(Swarm of Squirmings, The Dwellers Below)

20 Dryads 

2x5 Tree-Revenants 

2x3 Kurnoth Hunters

(Greatbows)

3 Kurnoth Hunters 

(Scythes)

5 Sisters of the Thorn 

Gnarlroot Wargrove 

Household

[Aezeal]

So I can't play a lot of games.... if there is someone who plays a lot (and has time to mess about a bit who could try this list I'd love to hear about it:

Treelord Ancient 300 (regrowth,  Gnarled warrior, either oaken armor OR acorn of ages if you want a sure drop in your own deployment zone - to teleport wyches into the possible mid board forest)

Son of Durthu 400 (Gnarled warrior, oaken armor)

Star seer 160 

Branchwych 100 (circlet, reaping)

Branchwych 100 (circlet reaping)

Vortex 100

Vortex 100

Revenants 100

Dryads 120

Dryads 120

Gnarlroor (100)

 

for 1600 if I'm correct. sadly doens't really fit in 1500 points and certainly lacks shooting, however doing D3 damage on several enemy units per caster and 1-2 wounds (per mage) on probably most of their army might not be that bad, especially if battleshock helps a bit. Add Hunters as you wish (or.. one or two more Wyches with vortex).

Revenants can try to assasinate a badly positioned mage to avoid dispelling.

Dryads defend objectives.

Durthu defends the 2 wyches as a body guard, TLA heals them if needed.

Starseer mainly there to make sure you can cast the vortex in either turn 1 or 2 (if you have 4 dice rerolling any cast dice below 4 should help a lot). His spell can either be cast on the Durthu when in combat (increase a hit or wound roll or a damage roll) or otherwise on one of the wyches also to help the vortex.. or if it's already up to make sure the spell is cast (with another possible +1 to cast you should make it) OR to make a 5 a 6 on the damage roll of the spell or increase the roll of the D3 on an character.

 

 

 

[Nico]

The Starseer is an exceptional choice for Sylvaneth. There are a lot of key dice rolls that he can reroll - Stomps; that pair of lucky 6s that your opponent rolled on its saves to fend off 12 Damage from Durthu; 4+ to summon a Wyldwood; and Initiative rolls.

Risk-reward as it's 160 points for a 5 wound hero (cost of a Daemon Prince); and they can guess correctly a lot, but fun and solid choice.

[Nico]

I'm not a fan of the Shield of Thorns Spell as you'll fail the cast roll too often. Furthermore, the enemy can elect not to attack at all as per the FAQ. Much discussion of this above in the thread.

[Mirage8112]

I'm not a fan of the Shield of Thorns Spell as you'll fail the cast roll too often. Furthermore, the enemy can elect not to attack at all as per the FAQ. Much discussion of this above in the thread.

I've had good results with a unit of 10.


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[Aezeal]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

I've had good results with a unit of 10.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The spell is not worth 400 points I think.. I'd rather get a Durthu instead of that.

[Mirage8112]

On 3/3/2017 at 1:25 AM, Nico said:

Just to check, is the "bait trap" teleporting a unit of Tree Revenants to 9" away and forming a nice wide line that they need to go around (particularly if there are tree stumps as well) or waste a turn killing?

Yes, that's one way to do it. There are other ways as well, but generally it just means presenting a little speed bump that prevents him from charging the Spites while keeping him within 8". 

[Mirage8112]

 

12 hours ago, Aezeal said:

The spell is not worth 400 points I think.. I'd rather get a Durthu instead of that.

It's totally worth the point cost. That spell alone can shut down an entire enemy combat phase by itself.

Imagine you've gone to the trouble to set up a dryad bunker with your TLA in a standard configuration in a wildwood. It's the bottom of the second turn, and your opponent has 2-3 units of something hard hitting, either a super buffed unit of reaver with 4-5 attacks apiece from double bloodsecrators and a totem buff, or some other such "deathstar' nonsense. If you facing say a big unit of ironguts at 3 damage and +1 hit, it only takes 2-3 hits to get through to take out half of your dryad bunker from a combination of wounds/battleshock.

In a normal situation with that much firepower even -2 to hit from dryads and stomp can still severely hurt if the attack volume/damage is high enough. Add to that, the fact that your opponent will get to activate first and has the possibility of getting a double turn, it's very likely Durthu will not survive long enough to put out much damage, and if he does survive, his damage output will be greatly reduced. 

Now, in the same scenario, imagine you've managed to get shield of thorns off in your previous turn. It casts on a 5+ since the sisters unit is 10 strong, so it's as reliable as casting mystic shield. This means your dryad bunker is now sporting a 3+ re-rollable save (maybe even  2+ if you're TLA puts shield on them), that does mortal wounds back on a roll of 4+ (3+ if mystic shield is in play). This also stacks with the TLA's command ability. So Dryads with a 2+ rerollable save, that first reroll 1's, then reroll all failed saves any of which put out a mortal wound on a save of 3+. That reaver unit will positively shred itself to pieces, and it's very unlikely the irongut unit will do more than a wound with so many rerollable saves. Plus, if your opponent rolls well and gets the double turn, shield of thorns remains in play until your hero phase. So you've just shut down 2 potentially disastrous CC confrontations with 1 spell that casts on a 5+. (Not to mention they are move 12", bravery 9 in cover and put out 20 -1 rend shots 9" away making them excellent harassment units if your opponent is tied up in combat.)

Durthu can't do that. 

And as Nico has pointed out, your opponent can choose "not to attack the unit." That's not a bad thing. That's an amazing thing. Imagine there was a spell whose text read as follows. "Choose a friendly unit. On a 5+ enemy units cannot target that unit for CC attacks until your next hero phase." You know damn well we'd all take that spell in a heartbeat. Plus, unlike Durthu, this spell is as effective late game as early game; with 20 wounds AND the ability to bring back dead models through the Gnarlroot spell, this unit is sure to be around in turns 3-5 provided you aren't sloppy with your positioning.  

[Aezeal]

22 hours ago, Nico said:

The Starseer is an exceptional choice for Sylvaneth. There are a lot of key dice rolls that he can reroll - Stomps; that pair of lucky 6s that your opponent rolled on its saves to fend off 12 Damage from Durthu; 4+ to summon a Wyldwood; and Initiative rolls.

Risk-reward as it's 160 points for a 5 wound hero (cost of a Daemon Prince); and they can guess correctly a lot, but fun and solid choice.

But do you think the army as a whole has a chance?