Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Forestreveries]

At the tournament here in Australia in January, we're allowed to take two lists and I'm finding that all my lists tend to be low on heroes. I was originally going to take a Gnarlroot list and maybe a Dreadwood list to bring out vs the hoard destruction armies, but I'm considering just doing a second character heavy list for the 3 places of power match. What do you think the best 2000 point 3 places of power list would be? I'd considered a similar list to @Forestreveries.  

We were actually playing with 2 list format. My other list was intended for 3 places of power, having a hurricanum, lots of ranged attacks and mortal wound output. And more heroes.
I'll dig it out and post it up here on my break [emoji1303]

Aaron


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[Nico]

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We were actually playing with 2 list format. My other list was intended for 3 places of power, having a hurricanum, lots of ranged attacks and mortal wound output. And more heroes.
I'll dig it out and post it up here on my break 

Sorry I missed that point - that changes things completely.

I'm skeptical about sideboards and dual-list events for this very reason - it removes a lot of the challenge of making a list. Frankly it allows you to bring complete filth in one list (without giving a damn about the battleplans) - and I mean Skryre and Bonesplitterz Archers not anything in Sylvaneth; and get away with it because you can bring a "normal list" or a "6 heroes" list for certain battleplans and your bad match ups.   

[Nico]

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What do you think the best 2000 point 3 places of power list would be? I'd considered a similar list to @Forestreveries.  

Probably Treelord Ancient as general, the Loremaster, all the heroes with Oaken Armour; and then the Free Spirits formation to alpha strike onto one of their objectives . Have the Ancient cast Verdant Blessing for a new wood near the objective and a killable enemy hero, use the combo of Swift Vengeance and Forest Spirits to deploy in hero phase 9 inches from said hero; cast Hand of Glory on Spirit of Durthu; move in movement phase closer to hero and then charge him. Kill with Durthu so that you get the objective back immediately.

[MidasKiss]

We were actually playing with 2 list format. My other list was intended for 3 places of power, having a hurricanum, lots of ranged attacks and mortal wound output. And more heroes.
I'll dig it out and post it up here on my break [emoji1303]

Aaron


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Sounds similar to what I'm thinking. Shoot off enemy Heroes while not losing my own haha.

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[Nico]

Between Durthu's shooting attack (with rerolls); his sword (with rerolls) and the Hunters' shooting - that's a lot of anti-hero damage.

[Forestreveries]

These were my two lists;

Both Gnarlroot variants, think they're both pretty strong but could certainly be better.

The Sisters list is all about the resilient brick wall and counterpunch, the Hurricanum list utilises ranged damage and mortal wound spam and Wyldwoods' roused by magic.

[Nico]

I think those are both excellent lists for people to look at if they're starting out with Sylvaneth. It's very hard not to use the Gnarlroot formation.

[Forestreveries]

I think those are both excellent lists for people to look at if they're starting out with Sylvaneth. It's very hard not to use the Gnarlroot formation.

Agree.

The hurricanum one takes a little more understanding of the way the faction plays but I 100% agree that Gnarlroot is easy to fall into.

Especially given that it is so cheap and you probably want at least the Treelord Ancient and cheap battleline, it means you can take it alongside other battalions.

Points get tighter with the order wizard if you go Hurricanum or Sisters, but with a Battlemage or Loremaster should be easy.

Aaron

[Nico]

Winterleaf is useful, but the 4th unit of Dryads is a costly waste.

[Forestreveries]

Winterleaf is useful, but the 4th unit of Dryads is a costly waste.

Yeah having the fourth battleline unit in my hurricanum list was annoying.

Imagine household required Dryads and not Tree Revenants [emoji7][emoji7][emoji7]


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[MidasKiss]

If spite revenants were battleline, would you be more likely to play Dreadwood? I love the idea of Dreadwood but it's 7 small units normally, and 4 or 5 of them aren't fantastic

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[Nico]

Yes - I love the range reduction ability. 

It's just a killer having MSU melee combat units - total garbage.

You can make a decent alpha strike out of it, but you're scrambling for points and the core of your army will be paper. Also so few armies are genuinely vulnerable to battleshock/bravery based tricks.

[Bowlzee]

I will weigh in now I've had 5 games with the Sylvaneth including a 3 day tournament Honour & Glory in Portsmouth over the weekend.

What I've been playing:

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior 
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Branchwraith (100)
- Artefact: Harvestboon Artefact 
Branchwraith (100)
- Artefact: The Silverwood Circlet 

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 20 (240)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows

Behemoths
Treelord (260)

Batallions
Forest Folk (60)
Harvestboon Wargrove (100)

Total: 2000/2000

I've won 2 out of the 5 games I've played, had 1 very close game against a monster mash Destruction list and been comprehensively beaten by two Chaos lists.

Some quick points

• I love the Forest Folk battalion, it's won me the game or given me a decent chance at winning. I also used it to save a few units of Dryads from an unfavourable combat.  Quick question, do you have to pick up ALL units from the battalion?
• I love the Branchwraiths, or it could just be the spells they have access too. The Harvestboon artefact allows you to take 2 spells and gives a 3" increase in spell range. I give this Wraith Regrowth and the Raise Forest spell. She usually just does Mystic shield or Arcane bolt but is a good back up if my Ancient fails to create a wood ( I only have 2 bases of woods painted) or if I need to regrowth some Hunters that are out of the Ancients range. The second Wraith takes Reaping with the Circlet for 9" shenanigans. The +1 to cast from the wargrove helps my bad dice rolling, Sitting these in an Arcane scenery for +2 to cast makes them much more reliable.
• The Treelord is so hit and miss. Sometimes he's the boss and kills so much but most of the time he does absolutely nothing. 
• Dryads are really good once you can get them into a Wood. In one game over the weekend 20 of them held up and eventually killed 6 Crypt Horrors followed by their Courtier. Then redeployed to take an objective using the battalion rules to win me the game. I need to paint more woods so I can take advantage of the -1 to hit.
• Ancient suffers from the same hit or miss that the Treelord has, however because he's a Leader you can make him very tanky. Gnarled Warrior + Briasheath + Mystic shield + Command Trait and he's suddenly 2+ Save rerolling ones, ignoring -1 rend and -1 (or -2 with Stomp) to hit. I give him regrowth to be able to heal himself also. Over the weekend he tanked a Ghoul King on Abyssal Terror in one game, a Mangler Squig + Orc Chariot in another, and Nurgle Daemon Prince, 2 Plague Drones, Bloab in combat and a GUO shooting at it for a few turns.
• Hunters are amazing,  The guys with Scythes deal so much damage, I had 3 of them kill 20 Plaguebearers over 3 rounds of combat, even with them regenerating models. They also took down a Mangler squig and walked through Orruks like they were made out of butter. If I hadn't fluffed 1 round of combat (dealing only 1 wound to 10 Orruks) I could have won an additional game over the weekend. I need to place them better in games like Escalation, but super happy with these guys. The Greatbows are very useful, but again I need to roll better.

I plan to drop the Treelord, and 10 Dryads to take 2 additional units of Hunters, another 3 Greatbows and 3 Scythes. It's really annoying that the cheapest unit is 100 points, makes building lists really frustrating,

I do believe the Branchwraith should be 80 points. Not quite sure why it's 100 points when it gives no synergy to the army, and it's unique spell is useless in Match Play. It's literally only for spell casting, it's no better than a DE Sorceress, Mistweaver Saih, Wardokk all 80 points.

 

[Forestreveries]

It's really annoying that the cheapest unit is 100 points, makes building lists really frustrating,
I do believe the Branchwraith should be 80 points. Not quite sure why it's 100 points when it gives no synergy to the army, and it's unique spell is useless in Match Play. It's literally only for spell casting, it's no better than a DE Sorceress, Mistweaver Saih, Wardokk all 80 points.
 

Those units can't teleport around the table and don't have a built in -1 to hit them. I think that's what you're paying for.

Aaron


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[Bowlzee]

46 minutes ago, Forestreveries said:

Those units can't teleport around the table and don't have a built in -1 to hit them. I think that's what you're paying for.

Aaron

 

 

You're probably right. Would love a better spell though. Regen D3 Dryads would be useful

[Forestreveries]

You're probably right. Would love a better spell though. Regen D3 Dryads would be useful

That's why everyone else is using Gnarlroot instead of Harvestboon

Aaron

[Bowlzee]

10 minutes ago, Forestreveries said:

That's why everyone else is using Gnarlroot instead of Harvestboon

Aaron

 

I ain't no bandwagoner  

[Nico]

Then do Winterleaf for Turbo Dryads and trolling Chaos opponents with the rerolls incl shooting!

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Quick question, do you have to pick up ALL units from the battalion?

Sadly I think the answer is yes.

[MidasKiss]

I would love to see what other people have been thinking for their 1000pt lists. I am assembling my way through the start collecting set, and have been thinking something like:

• Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
• Household Battalion (20)
• Tree lord Ancient (300)
• Branchwynch (100)
• 5 Tree Revenants (100)
• 20 Dryads (240)
• and either 1 more Branchwynch (100) for a total of 940, or another 10 dryads in the above unit for a total of 960.

I love the extra spell cast / unbind, and the Verdurous Harmony spell from the Gnarlroot Wargrove, and the +1 bravery and no retreat from the household battalion could make the dryads a good tarpit, mystic shield and hopefully in a wildwood or some kind of cover near an objective. I'm not sure if those bonuses make it worth the extra 100 points of battalions, and the 100 points of tree revenants (I'm waiting to try them, the seem situational). 

As discussed above, it's not that many models on the board. I haven't played much yet though so I'm curious to see what other armies have in their 1000 point lists. The new savage orcs are frightening, I don't fancy versing them with their cheap units, high damage output and monster hunting bonuses...

I maintain that I didn't bandwagon, but simply fell on the Gnarlroot early on before I knew anything haha.

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[Mirage8112]

Sorry I've been out for a bit. The mother in law was in town this week, and I've been trying to work my way through the Wildwood models I have unbuilt. i thought it would be a small project, but it turns out there are way more mould lines than I anticipated. It's shaping up all right, but it's not as fast as I thought it would be.

Normally I would run through and quote posts, but I'm feeling lazy, so I'll just address points. 

One of the things I absolutely hated about the tournament scene under 8th edition was the prevalence of net lists. There's nothing more frustrating than seeing 10-15 players all playing some variation of the same thing. In some cases, the lists were very strong, but only because they took advantage of the narrow field of opponents. On top tables, you would often see the same 4-5 armies (WoC, VC, DoC and HE, occasionally DE's and maybe Empire depending on the event and comp pack.) but mostly within those armies, you really only saw 1-2 lists hitting the table with some slight variation. 

Yes Gnarlroot is good. It's very forgiving for beginners. Especially because of it's ability to mitigate damage if you make a mistake. But, after this list has been in rotation a while, the meta will adapt and that will be a very bad thing if it's the only way you know how to play. 

Gnarlroot is nice, but it can't take everything that AoS can throw at it without a major amount of luck. As I said in a post in previous thread, this list could very easily be shut down by a player whose brought a strong magical defense list. Regrowth doesn't work if it's unbound by Teclis. And that dude gets +2 to unbinds and can unbind 3 spells per turn. Gnarlroot's strength is in it's spellcasting, but without that, it doesn't have a tremendous amount of room for units designed to do heavy lifting. Most of the lists I've seen offered up only have 2 units of 3x hunters in them. 15 wounds per unit is plenty if you can heal through the damage and replace lost models. It is not plenty if that units eats a turn of focus fire and a units thats wiped out can't be resurrected. Not to mention 1-2 models hitting back is the reality if you can't get a healing spell off.  (Hell, wanders don't even need to roll for unbinds with a spellsinger. Could you imagine Teclis and a Spellsinger shutting down healing spells, while getting pummeled by phoenix guard? Or 2 units of glade guard putting out 60 -3 rend shots each at 20"? No thank you...) 

Sylvaneth are my main army, but I also play Chaos Undivided and the Wanderers/Eternity king lists (when that was a thing). Gnarlroot is a strong formation, but it's partially strong because it's new. I'm not saying these lists are bad. They are good (sometimes very good) under the right conditions. But they are, more or less, all the same. As such they suffer from very similar weaknesses and it won't be long before those weaknesses are known. 

I think we've been paying a lot of attention to big meta formations, because we've been focusing on a one turn drop, with some units hitting the field and others going into the hidden enclaves. But that won't work in every situation. I think there is some real gems in the smaller formations (free spirits being one) and they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand just because they aren't a gnarlroot list. @Nico and @scrubyandwells and I have talked a little about an alpha-strike Outcasts based list, and fairly certain there's still some hidden potential in the Ironbark wargrove as well. 

There's a lot of things AoS can throw at us. It would be good if we had more than one thing to throw back. 

[Nico]

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Gnarlroot is nice, but it can't take everything that AoS can throw at it without a major amount of luck. As I said in a post in previous thread, this list could very easily be shut down by a player whose brought a strong magical defense list.

You'll cry if Nagash rocks up - did someone say 8 unbinds with +3 to unbind.

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Gnarlroot's strength is in it's spellcasting, but without that, it doesn't have a tremendous amount of room for units designed to do heavy lifting. 

I don't think this is a property of Gnarlroot, I think it's a property of Sylvaneth generally. You don't have to buy extra wizards. On the basis that you want to take a single drop army, the Gnarlroot is by far the most efficient - the Treelord Ancient is pretty much in every list and the only downside is a mandatory unit of Tree Revenants - vaguely useful situationally. 

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Sylvaneth are my main army, but I also play Chaos Undivided and the Wanderers/Eternity king lists (when that was a thing). Gnarlroot is a strong formation, but it's partially strong because it's new. I'm not saying these lists are bad. They are good (sometimes very good) under the right conditions. But they are, more or less, all the same. As such they suffer from very similar weaknesses and it won't be long before those weaknesses are known. 

This is a good point.

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But that won't work in every situation. I think there is some real gems in the smaller formations (free spirits being one) and they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand just because they aren't a gnarlroot list. @Nico and @scrubyandwells and I have talked a little about an alpha-strike Outcasts based list, and fairly certain there's still some hidden potential in the Ironbark wargrove as well. 

I think Ironbark with a Runesmiter and 30 Vulkites will really mess people up - you can deepstrike anywhere so the opponent cannot just think Woods Woods Woods. Plus Ward Saves! The downside is that the Ironbark buffs are garbage.

If you wanted to play on the basis that you'll win the double turn, then Runesmiter and 30 Auric Hearthguard would also be superb for hero sniping. But if you lose the double turn, 200 point for 10 models with 5+ save and 1 wound means you lose.

[Nico]

Ok here's an Ironbark list: 

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)
- General
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe Runic Iron & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Artefact: Hoarfrost

Units
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400)
- War Pick & Slingshield

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironbark Wargrove (60)
Household (20)

Total: 1980/2000

This is on the basis that battalion requirements are keywords (FAQ) and that a Treelord Ancient has the "Treelord" keyword - which is somewhat debatable. The fact that the Gnarlroot formation insists that the Treelord in Household be a Treelord Ancient also points in this direction. The Treelord is a disaster for Sylvaneth as it cannot have an artefact and cannot score in 3 places of power.

Vulkites are perhaps the toughest battleline unit available for Sylvaneth. They also do 4 mortal wounds on the charge and if they don't charge they are 4+, 4++ until the phase after they have lost 6 models. They can reroll one of the dice to charge 9.

Alarielle, the Branchwraith and the TLA can move into position behind the Vulkites in your second turn. If the Vulkites fail their charge and the enemy win the double turn, then they hit the Vulkites and Alarielle and the Ancient smack over the top. One thing to watch will be deleting the Vulkites with Awakening the Woods.... If you win the double turn, then the Runesmiter buffs the Vulkites with reroll wounds (including the derpy axes), they keep on chopping. Alarielle and the TLA also enter the fray.

Meanwhile the Tree Revenants are teleporting about. 

Thoughts?

 

[Forestreveries]

Ok here's an Ironbark list: 

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)
- General
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe Runic Iron & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Artefact: Hoarfrost

Units
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400)
- War Pick & Slingshield

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironbark Wargrove (60)
Household (20)

Total: 1980/2000

This is on the basis that battalion requirements are keywords (FAQ) and that a Treelord Ancient has the "Treelord" keyword - which is somewhat debatable. The fact that the Gnarlroot formation insists that the Treelord in Household be a Treelord Ancient also points in this direction. The Treelord is a disaster for Sylvaneth as it cannot have an artefact and cannot score in 3 places of power.

?

 

I don't believe this is a keyword. Keywords are alway shown in caps and bold font. As per the word Duardin on the Ironbark Warscroll.

Agree with your points on Non-ancient Treelords tho.

The lists seems okay but I don't see much that it offers over taking either an Order Allegiance or Sylvaneth Allegiance without the Duardin in it.

Aaron

[Nico]

There's an FAQ question which indicates that Battalion requirements are always keywords.

The issue is whether "Treelord Ancient" counts as "Treelord"

[Nico]

Leaders
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe Runic Iron & Fyresteel Throwing Axes
- Artefact: Hoarfrost

Units
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes
Vulkite Berzerkers x 25 (400)
- War Pick & Slingshield

Behemoths
Treelord (260)

War Machines

Batallions
Ironbark Wargrove (60)
Household (20)

Total: 1980/2000

This one might be better and avoids the possible Treelord problem.