Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Please be careful. You're about to invite the tree zealots in for the world's least interesting debate about whether the trees can/should be removed. 

[Mirage8112]

Lol wish I could like that more than once.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xerek]

27 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Besides, our army is a bunch of trees, you don't think they might know how to politely ask the trees to "scooch over just a bit?"

I absolutely agree; however, that would then mean that the enemy mechanically should be able to do the same thing as we don't have a custom rule that let's us explicitly stand in a tree.

 

So, it's up to the player to play the base with or without the trees.  If you play with the trees, then they would be in the way of any models and none could stand on/inside a tree (not to mention they would block line of site).  If you play without the trees then the trees aren't physically there thus no issue.

[Xerek]

2 minutes ago, Nico said:

Please be careful. You're about to invite the tree zealots in for the world's least interesting debate about whether the trees can/should be removed. 

I certainly don't want to invite the tree zealots, but i've already lost this debate once and so was hoping for some backing from the wargroves of the interwebs.

[scrubyandwells]

Re: Ironbark Wargrove, take a look at 30 Thunderers buffed by a Runelord. Could be a nice addition, even though the 16" gun range (20" w/ move) is a little short.

[Age of The Erstwood]

After running The Gnarlroot Wargrove all through an undefeated Season of War campaign I finally lost my first match to an insane Tomb Kings list a couple of weeks ago and took the loss as a chance to change up my army a bit and try something else. I was already in the process of building up a Hurricanum for use in the Gnarlroot list so couldn't resist the running it as the centrepiece in Winterleaf Wargrove. Anyway, I played my first game with the Battalion last week, my opponent kindly agreed to 1200 point game so I could run the Hurricanum along with the requisite formation, the list I ran was as follows;

WW wargrove 100
Forest Folk 60
Branchwraith (Treesong & Accorn of the Ages) 100
20 Dryads 240
10 Dryads 120
10 Drayds 120
10 Dryads 120
Celestial Hurricanum 320 (Order trait and artefact increasing and healing wounds, at this point I hadn't been reading this forum and didn't realise I could give it Sylvaneth traits/artefacts)

Tactically the list doesn't leave too many options, you pretty much have to advance and engage, fortunately I was playing against a Nurgle/Skaven army so once I'd taken out the weapons teams with the Hurricanum he didn't have much choice but to come meet me. What the Hurricanum does to the Dryads is quite something, it turns them from a slightly above average battleline to a well above average elite, especially in their own turn when enrapturing song and portents of battle means your hitting on 2's and doing extras attacks on 4's (re-rolling 1s in this particular match up too). Even the units of 10 Dryads we're regularly doing 20+ hits and 10+ wounds per turn (one unit even wiped out 20 plague monks with one round of attacks). As a standalone model the Hurricanum's shooting was averaging about 5 mortal wounds per turn and along with its spell it managed to snipe both characters and 4 weapons teams throughout the battle. Granted a unit of 10 dryads were pretty squishy but if you chose your targets and make sure you get the charge (which with 7" move, spirits paths and the Forest Folk battalion rule shouldn't be too difficult) you can sing to their victims and so as long as one of them is withing 10" of the Hurricanum you should dish out enough damage to keep them alive.

If I were to run this list as 2000 points I'd probably bump another of the units of Dryads to 20, add in a Treelord Ancient and 2 units of Kurnoth Hunters, probably with bows, sitting 10" behind the Hurricanum and helping with/taking over the sniping. 

I missed the absence of a Treelord and the hunters in the smaller but it was still a lot of fun to play (though I am going to need more dice) and I managed to table a Nurgle army in four turns without any real chance of losing the scenario, of course a list with lots of Dryads gives you a lot of bodies for capturing/contesting objectives.

Anyway, would like to know if anyone else has ran this list (i'm currently working my way through reading the whole topic & as of yet it's all Gnarlroot Wargroves, apologies if this has already been covered) and what their thoughts are?

Oh, and I learnt one other valuable lesson; if you're playing against Poison Wind Mortar teams, run 19 Dryads instead of 20!
 

[Nico]

Quote

Celestial Hurricanum 320 (Order trait and artefact increasing and healing wounds, at this point I hadn't been reading this forum and didn't realise I could give it Sylvaneth traits/artefacts)

I think the latest thinking on this is that you cannot take Sylvaneth artefacts on a non-Sylvaneth hero. You still might be able to give an Order Wizard a Sylvaneth Lore Spell.

More importantly, you definitely cannot take both Allegiances - you cannot get both Order traits/artefacts and Sylvaneth traits/artefacts in the same army! You have to elect one allegiance before each game.

It's good to see the Winterleaf Wargrove doing well. I've certainly thought about running it. My concern is that the 4 units of Dryads is too much of a dead weight and the formation itself is costly compared to Gnarlroot. I prefer to run a 30 and two minimum sized units of Battleline troops.

[Forestreveries]

Oh, and I learnt one other valuable lesson; if you're playing against Poison Wind Mortar teams, run 19 Dryads instead of 20!

 

Ha! I like that! Brilliant tip!

Aaron

[scrubyandwells]

1 minute ago, Nico said:

I think the latest thinking on this is that you cannot take Sylvaneth artefacts on a non-Sylvaneth hero. You still might be able to give an Order Wizard a Sylvaneth Lore Spell.

More importantly, you definitely cannot take both Allegiances - you cannot get both Order traits/artefacts and Sylvaneth traits/artefacts in the same army! You have to elect one allegiance before each game.

No go on giving an Order Wizard a Sylvaneth Lore Spell. Sylvaneth Lore Spells are part of the Sylvaneth Allegiance Abilities' lockbox. Order Wizards without the Sylvaneth keyword on their warscroll can't gain access to that lockbox. With that said, a Gnarlroot Order Wizard does gain access to Verdurous Harmony, which isn't a Sylvaneth Lore Spell. 

[Nico]

In principle yes and that's kind of what the FAQ answer says. However, as you immediately point out, the actual wording suggests otherwise and there's already a clear exception. The wording re Lore is different from the wording re Artefacts. It says Wizard in a Sylvaneth Army, rather than Sylvaneth Wizard (in a Sylvaneth Army). Whether this matters in practice I doubt. You're not going to be taking another wizard and then not using his own spell. 

[scrubyandwells]

1 minute ago, Nico said:

In principle yes and that's kind of what the FAQ answer says. However, as you immediately point out, the actual wording suggests otherwise and there's already a clear exception. The wording re Lore is different from the wording re Artefacts. It says Wizard in a Sylvaneth Army, rather than Sylvaneth Wizard (in a Sylvaneth Army). Whether this matters in practice I doubt. You're not going to be taking another wizard and then not using his own spell. 

Yeah we went over this already...also checked directly with a reliable GW source and they said Order Wizards that don't have the Sylvaneth keyword on their warscroll can't access the Sylvaneth's Deepwood Spell Lore.

[RossMHoward]

I was told that Dryads like most units which are costed in the generals handbook couldn't be divided into few models?

Initially I had planned to run two units of 15 but I had to run 20/10 instead. 

Does anybody have a compelling argument against this? 20/10 actually worked out better for me but It'd be nice to have the flexibility and a reference to back up my reasoning. 

[Forestreveries]

I was told that Dryads like most units which are costed in the generals handbook couldn't be divided into few models?

Initially I had planned to run two units of 15 but I had to run 20/10 instead. 

Does anybody have a compelling argument against this? 20/10 actually worked out better for me but It'd be nice to have the flexibility and a reference to back up my reasoning. 

You would have to pay for 4 warscrolls worth of dryads to take 2x15

Taking under strength warscrolls is fine. You just have to pay the full amount.

Splitting warscrolls between 2 units is not allowed

You'll find this rule in the Generals Handbook at the start of the Matched Play section, I don't have a page number to hand.

Aaron

[RossMHoward]

Beautiful, cheers! I'll move on with my life

[Xerek]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah we went over this already...also checked directly with a reliable GW source and they said Order Wizards that don't have the Sylvaneth keyword on their warscroll can't access the Sylvaneth's Deepwood Spell Lore.

In addition, on the page in the sylvaneth battletome right before it lists the sylvaneth allegiance abilities, of 106, it says that the spell lore is part of the allegiance abilities. Combined with the FAQ which precludes anyone without the keyword to benefit from allegiance abilities I'd argue it's pretty clear cut. 

[Nico]

Kind of - the FAQ question looked like it was interpreting/summarising the existing rules rather than creating a new rule. If it's only interpreting/summarising, then arguably the Lore is different from the artefacts. Anyway I'm not planning to use a Lore spell on an Order Wizard. A Kroakster might I suppose.

[Tommm]

With so much weight on manipulating the double turn is the Skink Starseer worth a consideration as your Order Wizard?

[Nico]

Using generic rerolls to rig the initiative roll is generally frowned upon (it has been banned in independent events for over a year, but was allowed at The Warlords).

[Tommm]

I'll take that as a sign it's worth it for all GW events that are coming up then. 

[Forestreveries]

With so much weight on manipulating the double turn is the Skink Starseer worth a consideration as your Order Wizard?

@MidasKiss and I were discussing this yesterday. The Starseer does seem to be a decent enough option with Sylvaneth.

Plenty of times when a single dice roll is really important.

Couple of examples For sylvaneth specifically that I thought of;

Groundshaking stomp in a vital combat round.

High damage attacks such as Durthu's Guardian Sword or a Treelord Ancient's Shootig attack.

Casting Verdant Harmony. I've failed to cast this on turn one in so many games and it completely changed the game plan. Not having to would be great!

Realmroots. Failing by rolling that 1 at a key moment could cost you a game. No more!

Drycha's mood. I play flitterfuries with her and tend to always want her angry instead of sad, tho this is only a 50/50 chance so perhaps a waste.

I believe@Midaskiss is thinking of putting together some sort of document to help players decide on their Order Wizard and the benefits and drawbacks of each.

Aaron

[Age of The Erstwood]

9 hours ago, Nico said:

I think the latest thinking on this is that you cannot take Sylvaneth artefacts on a non-Sylvaneth hero. You still might be able to give an Order Wizard a Sylvaneth Lore Spell.

More importantly, you definitely cannot take both Allegiances - you cannot get both Order traits/artefacts and Sylvaneth traits/artefacts in the same army! You have to elect one allegiance before each game.

It's good to see the Winterleaf Wargrove doing well. I've certainly thought about running it. My concern is that the 4 units of Dryads is too much of a dead weight and the formation itself is costly compared to Gnarlroot. I prefer to run a 30 and two minimum sized units of Battleline troops.

See the way I interpreted the FAQ was that you could count allies Sylvaneth when choosing abilities but they wouldn't benefit from those abilities that are keyword specified? E.g the general, if allied, could take the trait allowing you to add one to spirit walking (sorry my book is not with me) but it can't spirit walk because it's not Sylvaneth, in which case chose something it can use? I think the FAQ says something like that they count as Sylvaneth when choosing abilities, what does it mean by abilities then if not artefacts/traits? 

Youre definitely right about taking Sylvaneth/Order abilities though, I missed the either/or in the FAQ.

Finally, I think as long as the Dryad's are in the range of the Hurricanum they wouldn't be considered dead weight. Otherwise my plan is to have two units of 20 to hold the line and throw the two units of 10 into a first wave. Perhaps use he formation ability or spirit paths to set them up for first or second turn charge and see what damage they can do where. I don't think it would mess the greater plan to sacrifice them or even use them as bait. 

[Age of The Erstwood]

4 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

I believe@Midaskiss is thinking of putting together some sort of document to help players decide on their Order Wizard and the benefits and drawbacks of each.

I found a Grey Battle Mage from the Free People's list quite useful, stack that -1 to hit with Dryad's in woods, ground shaking stomps or a briarsheath. A Treelord Ancient that's -3 to hit is gonna hold his own against most things.

[MidasKiss]

7 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

I believe@Midaskiss is thinking of putting together some sort of document to help players decide on their Order Wizard and the benefits and drawbacks of each.

Aaron

Working on it! I've got the summary of the warscrolls / abilities done, though I need to check it against the app as the website warscrolls are often off it seems. Then I want to put them into tiers, from highly useful, to situational, to not much use (normally because of points or faction specific abilities).

[Well of Eternity]

Hi!

Few weeks ago I started my adventure with small Sylvaneth (after long time dedicated only to Chaos Gods )army and need some advice. This tread is a great source of knowledge but I still thinking about best ways to use Wyldwoods.

Generally in our gaming group we play Take and Hold, Border Wars and Gifts from Heavens so I try to find best strategies for additional forests on board. First of all - where to place Sylvaneth free Wyldwood?

Is the best place on the middle of the board (if yes, then what are pros of this position) and then use ‘Acorn’ to drop another one in the middle of my territory (on my objective) or there is better use of this artefact?

Later in the game I can always summon more Wyldwoods. I think it`s a great way to block my opponent army and make a good defensive position for by battleline units contesting and holding objectives. Am I right?

TL;DR: I looking for any advice about how to use Sylvaneth Wyldwood in pitched battles scenarios (especially Take and Hold, Border Wars and Gifts from Heavens)

[Nico]

I think the "free" one should link the two deployment zones, ideally between or across an objective.

Your next one with the Verdant Blessing spell should be put right up next to as many enemy units as possible (as it can conga and it can get 1 inch away from enemy models) - this allows you to Awaken the Wood with the Treelord Ancient. The Acorn one can be in your deployment zone and towards an objective on the mid line. That leaves another shorter ranged one from the Treelord Ancient's passive ability.