Unusual Stormcast List

[Turragor]

I had an idea for an army that I will probably never play because A) I'd need to buy and paint a ton of judicators and B) It's a bit cheesy:

http://bit.ly/2a5F2LW

What I wanted to ask was if my understanding of the number of attacks was right.

So the main idea is that in AoS range is not great but you can fire in combat. So the boltstorm squads are actually to be used as close combat troops. Their main weakness is being on the move.

When in combat they don't move and so in the shooting phase (before combat) get 3 attacks each (is this right?) focus these into the melee they're in then when the combat phase comes round use your regular melee attacks.

The stat line for the Storm Gladius and Boltstorm Crossbow is identical. It's a total of 4 attacks per Judicator (excluding special weapon options - which are mortal wounders).

LCoD is there for the battleshock bubble. Castellant is there for save boost at crucial times. Relictor for heals on LCoD and mortal wound chipping.

There's one skybolt bow unit but I'm not even sure I shouldn't just add another block of 10 stormbolt crossbows. It's mostly bows for some semblence of extra flexibility. The prosecutors are in there for speed, objectives and slightly longer range harrasment.

Every unit is a 4+ save, hardly groundbreaking but for a Stormcast 'horde' and mass of dice it's respectable?

I dunno, what do people think? Will we see someone run this in a tourney?

[Forgebellows]

The link doesn't show your list, just links to the scrollbuilder without anything selected.

[Turragor]

2 hours ago, Forgebellows said:

The link doesn't show your list, just links to the scrollbuilder without anything selected.

Double checked, seems to open blank but then load in after a second or two. Attached the pdf list that you can dl from scrollbuilder.

warscrollBuilderList.pdf

[daedalus81]

Unless you can get somewhere fast other longer range armies are going to make it hurt.  They'll target the prosecutors and make you hoof it.  Two units of bows behind two of crossbows might keep you from being forced to march to their side.  

Also this will rely on shooting the enemy off the table and objectives will be harder to control.

It does have merit and I often ponder rocking off barrages of bolts for giggles, but I think the support needs to be more varied.  Maybe even some dracothian guard.

[Turragor]

13 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Unless you can get somewhere fast other longer range armies are going to make it hurt.  They'll target the prosecutors and make you hoof it.  Two units of bows behind two of crossbows might keep you from being forced to march to their side.  

Also this will rely on shooting the enemy off the table and objectives will be harder to control.

It does have merit and I often ponder rocking off barrages of bolts for giggles, but I think the support needs to be more varied.  Maybe even some dracothian guard.

Yeah other longer range armies are a bit of a counter.

But basically, if someone shapes a Stormcast force around a big block of Crossbow Judicators with the idea to use them as close combat/shoot phase troops, it could be strong?

Right now I'd lean more towards either proper ranged skybolt bows or liberators as the main core for Stormcast. But if this idea is stronger...

[TrexPushups]

I think the reason why this idea might not be a strong as using liberators as the buffers is that the judicators lack the sigmarite shields & close combat can happen 3 times in between shooting phases if your opponent gets a double turn. 

Only having 1 attack per judicator and no special weapon like a grand hammer or grandblade means you really need that shooting to keep pace with the significantly cheaper liberator unit that could be your front line instead. 

[Turragor]

2 hours ago, TrexPushups said:

I think the reason why this idea might not be a strong as using liberators as the buffers is that the judicators lack the sigmarite shields & close combat can happen 3 times in between shooting phases if your opponent gets a double turn. 

Only having 1 attack per judicator and no special weapon like a grand hammer or grandblade means you really need that shooting to keep pace with the significantly cheaper liberator unit that could be your front line instead. 

Good point with the phases, they do need the shooting phase for superiority and there are fewer shooting phases (given you can activate a unit in your opponent's combat phase).

If you factor in 2 attacks per liberator with an average of double combat phase to a single shooting phase, that gives 10 Liberators 40 attacks IF they can all make it into range. There would be two grandweapons and an extra attacks from the prime each phase (double if it's 2 x 5 units with a prime each). 

So 44 and the extra damage from big weapons.

The judicators (IF already in combat or stationary) get 24 attacks in the shooting phase (minus the special ranged weapon). That special ranged (if it's the crossbow) is mortal wounds. If it's the bow it's extra wounds. Both are better than the liberator combat choice but are used half as often.

Then you've 2 x combat phases @ 10 attacks each IF they can all make it into range.

My maths isn't great as you can maybe tell but it feels like it's almost equal on total combat wounds output. I'd almost say the judicators have it given in the shooting phase they're in range of any combat they'd be involved in.

But as you also said:

• You're paying 160 v 100 (general's handbook). So you'd have to multiple the Liberators wounds output by 1.6.
• Judicators are definitely weaker defensively.  I think sigmarite shields are going to save you 33% of most non-rending wounds?
• Double turns could be tough to survive

The more I think of it, the more I think I'll probably commit myself to buying and painting maybe 25 (uggghhhh I hate painting large lumps of miniatures!) Judicators at the end of the year. I like the models and they're a strong battleline unit anyway (even if they're bows and wholly ranged).

I can add 15 to the 5 bowmen I have because I do think them as traditional ranged is stronger in a stormcast line up, but I'll build 10 as crossbow dudes to test them as a melee focused ranged unit in a few smaller battles.

[Turragor]

16 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Unless you can get somewhere fast other longer range armies are going to make it hurt.  They'll target the prosecutors and make you hoof it.  Two units of bows behind two of crossbows might keep you from being forced to march to their side.  

Also this will rely on shooting the enemy off the table and objectives will be harder to control.

It does have merit and I often ponder rocking off barrages of bolts for giggles, but I think the support needs to be more varied.  Maybe even some dracothian guard.

There may be merit to splitting the judicators layout. I'd still be using the crossbows as melee - that's what I was thinking mostly about. How fast would they crumble? How well would they last in combat?

[daedalus81]

Well since bravery is independent of combat results it will really boil down to what they're fighting and how fast you can kill them.

Ideally you won't be moving your unit into firing range.  You'd be something like 18" away from a move 8 unit to be safe-ish.  So that means no shooting.  If they're smart they may sit outside 12", but the other longer range units should prevent that.

But let's assume they move within range for your next turn - that means you'll have one round of shooting before combat if you don't get messed up by initiative.  

Now we need to look at how these weapons compare.  I have a score that weight weapons against all armor types.  The crossbow at 2x is 2.22, at 3x it's 3.33, and the bow is 1.78.  So the crossbow at it's worst is still "better" than the bow - even against 3+.  

The problem you have to solve is how do you keep those 3x shots rolling?  The best I can think of is a wall of libs or something cheap to take hits.  Put the crossbows just behind them and pincushion anyone you can stick into combat.

[WoollyMammoth]

Crossbows are generally considered the weaker choice for Judicators, and with merit.
- The 4+ to wound will cut all your wounds in half, and bad rolls are going to be really depressing
- 12" is nothing, anything that close is likely going to charge you next turn. You are going to spend 2+ turns just getting ready to shoot.
- The not moving thing is going to be constantly annoying.

The long range and rending of bows is invaluable to contrast the slow & mostly close range theme of stormcast. In order to effectively use bow judicators, you have to understand a lot about target priority - many people waste shots on poor targets and assume their shooting sucks. When you shoot at the right things, bow judicators can easily be your opponents most hated unit. 

Shooting is also much, much worse than close combat. Lets say you get close enough to shoot something, then charge them to get that "4th attack" of the gladius in. Then your opponent gets to attack back. Then on their turn, they attack you again. If they get a double turn, that's a third time they are attacking you, while youre stuck in gladius misery. That's potentially 3 rounds of combat before you can shoot again. 

Liberators, in contrast, have twice the attacks in close combat and re-roll saves of 1 (shields). They also very often get +1 to hit as well. Paired hammer liberators are often 3+ re-rolling 1s to hit then 3+ to wound, which means a lot of attacks are getting through. Then you factor in a big nasty rending grand weapon for every 5 models. Also consider they can get +1 to hit with a Lord-Celestant. The liberators are a great combat unit.

When you consider Judicators are 60% more points, it becomes silly to not bring some liberators. Judicators are more expensive because shooting is not limited by model size; only so many bulky Liberators are going to be able to fit in a pile in, but shooting is not restricted by the bulky model size. You can't get 40 liberators and expect to get a ton of attacks, but you can do 10 liberators and back them up with several units of Judicators to cause a lot of wounds.

Judicators are actually great objective holders - they may not have shields but they are still 4+ 2 wound stormcast. The biggest complaint about them is they can seem to not do much except not die easily. Archers from other armies have fun abilities and work more like glass cannons. Judicators are a mixed-role unit - 50% decent shooting, 50% decent tanking. 

As far as painting 25 models, that's a breeze. You can get a color spray and dip them in wash and youre good to go. Judicator models are bit of a struggle to assemble, I'll admit. But consider other armies who have to make 90 ghouls, clanrats, skeletons, goblins, witch elves, etc etc. Stormcast were specifically designed to make the hurdle of building an army much, much less painful. 
 

[Turragor]

15 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

The problem you have to solve is how do you keep those 3x shots rolling?  The best I can think of is a wall of libs or something cheap to take hits.  Put the crossbows just behind them and pincushion anyone you can stick into combat.

Have I misunderstood something? The whole premise I was working from was that Judicators with crossbows that are in combat are stationary (no move or run) and therefore in any turn they're already in combat get 3 shooting attacks before the combat phase.

So they need no shield wall or a way to avoid combat. In fact, a unit in combat with them is guaranteed within their short crossbow range. The idea is they're close combat troops that only have worth as such thanks to the shooting phase.

If that's not the case then I don't think there's any point to all this fun calculating and debating because I'm working from the wrong idea

[Turragor]

12 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Crossbows are generally considered the weaker choice for Judicators, and with merit.
- The 4+ to wound will cut all your wounds in half, and bad rolls are going to be really depressing
- 12" is nothing, anything that close is likely going to charge you next turn. You are going to spend 2+ turns just getting ready to shoot.
- The not moving thing is going to be constantly annoying.

The long range and rending of bows is invaluable to contrast the slow & mostly close range theme of stormcast. In order to effectively use bow judicators, you have to understand a lot about target priority - many people waste shots on poor targets and assume their shooting sucks. When you shoot at the right things, bow judicators can easily be your opponents most hated unit. 

Shooting is also much, much worse than close combat. Lets say you get close enough to shoot something, then charge them to get that "4th attack" of the gladius in. Then your opponent gets to attack back. Then on their turn, they attack you again. If they get a double turn, that's a third time they are attacking you, while youre stuck in gladius misery. That's potentially 3 rounds of combat before you can shoot again. 

Liberators, in contrast, have twice the attacks in close combat and re-roll saves of 1 (shields). They also very often get +1 to hit as well. Paired hammer liberators are often 3+ re-rolling 1s to hit then 3+ to wound, which means a lot of attacks are getting through. Then you factor in a big nasty rending grand weapon for every 5 models. Also consider they can get +1 to hit with a Lord-Celestant. The liberators are a great combat unit.

When you consider Judicators are 60% more points, it becomes silly to not bring some liberators. Judicators are more expensive because shooting is not limited by model size; only so many bulky Liberators are going to be able to fit in a pile in, but shooting is not restricted by the bulky model size. You can't get 40 liberators and expect to get a ton of attacks, but you can do 10 liberators and back them up with several units of Judicators to cause a lot of wounds.

Judicators are actually great objective holders - they may not have shields but they are still 4+ 2 wound stormcast. The biggest complaint about them is they can seem to not do much except not die easily. Archers from other armies have fun abilities and work more like glass cannons. Judicators are a mixed-role unit - 50% decent shooting, 50% decent tanking. 

As far as painting 25 models, that's a breeze. You can get a color spray and dip them in wash and youre good to go. Judicator models are bit of a struggle to assemble, I'll admit. But consider other armies who have to make 90 ghouls, clanrats, skeletons, goblins, witch elves, etc etc. Stormcast were specifically designed to make the hurdle of building an army much, much less painful. 
 

I would actually prefer a balanced list but this idea was simply a thought experiment. I find it so interesting how shooting and combat work in AoS and how it could mean that a ranged unit with a 12" (always within charge effectively) range is maybe designed to be a combat unit that splits its combat effectiveness across shooting and combat phases.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense (to me) given there's no contest between bows and crossbows in a ranged only scenario. The crossbows are getting one turn of 3 ranged attacks before they're already in combat. In combat they can keep getting 3 ranged attacks. Of course as I noted above, maybe I'm wrong with that. Must double check warscroll to make sure it doesnt say "Doesnt apply in combat" or something.

That said you do make lots of good points.

And as for painting, I always paint to (my own) high level. I can't switch it off! Minimum 1 week of evenings when the kid is asleep for a 5 man unit.

And yes I'm glad I don't play a horde army

[daedalus81]

7 hours ago, Turragor said:

Have I misunderstood something? The whole premise I was working from was that Judicators with crossbows that are in combat are stationary (no move or run) and therefore in any turn they're already in combat get 3 shooting attacks before the combat phase.

So they need no shield wall or a way to avoid combat. In fact, a unit in combat with them is guaranteed within their short crossbow range. The idea is they're close combat troops that only have worth as such thanks to the shooting phase.

If that's not the case then I don't think there's any point to all this fun calculating and debating because I'm working from the wrong idea

Yes that is one way to do it, but not the most efficient, because you have to worry about a lot more factors including the loss of models before they get to shoot.

[WoollyMammoth]

Shooting is only in the shooting phase; as I mentioned you might have 3 close combat phases before you get a shooting phase. You cannot use your crossbow to shoot during close combat.

Bows are vastly superior to crossbows because they have awesome range, better wound rolls and -1 rending. With the Shockbolt Bow you are easily getting an average of 10 attacks with only 5 models, similar to crossbows who usually have 8 plus the D3 of the Thunderbolt Crossbow. At 24", you are usually getting two turns of attacks in before crossbows even get into range to fire their first shot.

Crossbows only perform better against an aggressive army trying to move across the table fast, putting themselves within your 12" by turn 2. Secondly, a massive horde army with low saves is going to lose more models to the higher number of shots, if they put themselves in range.

If you look at the big picture, bows are getting more shots in on average per game and more wounds being caused. If you really want crossbow guys, Just make sure you build only 5 and try them out before you commit to more than that.

I paint high standard too. trying to get better at just getting all my models to the wash stage so they look good for playing rather than fully do one model at a time. 

[daedalus81]

Some points I disagree with there.  Let's assume 6 shooting phases.

If you deploy right on the edge and the opponent does as well you can shoot starting turn 1.  A bow rates at 1.78 so 5 turns of that is 8.9.  A crossbow is 2.22 and 3.33.  So, if the crossbow gets just 3 turns - one while having moved then it ends up at 8.88.  

I totally agree that one is more situational, but if you can find a way to use it then you're going to score pretty big.  I just found out about the skyborne slayers battalion, which would allow you to get crossbows where you want them relatively safely.

It's a novel tactic that has some merit and is worth exploring a little further.  

The Thunderhead Brotherhood is another potential option that fits the criteria and also increases saves for the judicators.  

[Turragor]

3 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Shooting is only in the shooting phase; as I mentioned you might have 3 close combat phases before you get a shooting phase. You cannot use your crossbow to shoot during close combat.

...
Bows are vastly superior to crossbows because they have awesome range, better wound rolls and -1 rending.

...
If you look at the big picture, bows are getting more shots in on average per game and more wounds being caused.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you when talking about ranged. But my whole idea was crossbows IN close combat because the 12 inch range is asking to be charged. At that point do they have the advantage over bows? I think so.

Is the advantage enough to warrant taking them over bows? No, not if you want them to be ranged.

Is there any advantage over other traditional melee units by firing masses of bolts in the shooting phase before the combat phase (possibly 2 opponent phases) where it's gladius only? That's what I was really asking in the thread.

In that sense I'm not interested in the bows which we know are the superior choice unless we hypothesise that the crossbow is built to be a ranged unit that doesn't mind being in combat as much as other ranged units.