Black Knights and/or Hexwraiths in LON

[Lord Veshnakar]

Do they have a place/use in the lists? I have seen a lot of LON lists and rarely are they included. Can anyone stand to make a case for them or has anybody found a good use for them? Both are fast which is useful, black knights seem decent on the charge and Hexwraiths are really durable and can fly so seem like they would be great at securing objectives but I am not sure if it wouldn't just be better to take more GG, Skeles, and Dire Wolves. 

Would love to hear what you guys think though. I have 15 of them unbuilt on sprue and I am curious to hear the consensus. 

[Dracothjay]

I’m using 10 hexwraiths in my LoN list for sure. 

Im ambushing 4 morghast down a flank. Usually if they are alone, they’ll destroy what I want them too, but as they have no support they will die eventually. Having something like hexwraiths to support them is huge. LoN is a very aggressive list, so making your army fast and durable is essential.

im also running prince vohdrai in my LoN list to also charge the same flanks as my morghast. 

As for black knights, I’d only ever take them in a GHoN list as there is a lot more stuff deathrattle can benefit from.  Hexwraiths, although more expensive, are far better than black knights.

[Thanatos Ares]

I always take a unit of 5 Black Knights in my LoN

brilliant unit, overlooked far to often

[Drujeful]

1 hour ago, Thanatos Ares said:

I always take a unit of 5 Black Knights in my LoN

brilliant unit, overlooked far to often

What makes them brilliant? Seems like a lot of people call them mediocre. 

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Drujeful said:

What makes them brilliant? Seems like a lot of people call them mediocre. 

They're a tool that is very effective when used correctly.  They have a minimum 18" threat range, meaning they should almost always be on the charge.  I think they're best in units of ten with Danse Macabre.  They'll kill most things they charge and then regenerate any losses they may have incurred between their two rounds of attacks.  

They're one of the best units against tzeentch imo.  Not susceptible to gaunt summoner on balewind, can easily charge and eliminate a unit of pinks and if danse macabred can also eliminate the unit of blues that gets puked out.  

When I'm across the table from death, outside of big bad heroes, it's black knights I'm always wary of.  A slow moving blob of skeletons is cake to deal with.  They telegraph every move they make, and if you apply the right amount of force they crumble.  

Knights have good enough mobility that if you have two units you can cycle them to hold an objective while regenerating models while the other unit charges then retreats onto the objective to regenerate the next turn.  The newly healthy unit can then charge off the objective.

Great unit, well worth the points.  

[Drujeful]

3 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Great unit, well worth the points.

That’s quite the in depth explanation. Kind of hypes me up on their use. Thanks!

[Dracothjay]

I prefer hexwraiths. Don’t get me wrong, I was impressed my black knights when I used them in a GHoN list as deathrattle benefit greatly from it, but hexwraiths I think have the edge:

hexwraiths are just as easy to bring back, have a non altered save permanently, can fly, do mortal wounds and are so damn durable.

best way to use hexwraiths is alongside (or screening) harder hitting units that are fast. I’m using 10 hexwraiths and prince vohdrai as a flanking team for my LoN list on Monday. Hexwraiths will charge targets, do combat, next turn retreat over the top dropping (hopefully) MW bombs, the vohdrais breath attack from his dragon, then finally charge. They work perfectly together. 

Really, at the end of the day, it’s all personal flavour. Both units excel in different situations, but I’m a sucker for durability as death as a whole are very fragile.

[Thanatos Ares]

I use them for 2 reasons in my LoN list:

 

1) they’re deathrattle so benefit from ‘the bait’ 

 

2) the speed of them makes their banner (-1 bravery) easily positioned where you need it

[Dracothjay]

5 hours ago, Thanatos Ares said:

they’re deathrattle so benefit from ‘the bait’ 

They don’t recieve ‘the bait’ benefit. It’s for skeleton warriors, not black knights or grave guards.

[RoloMcFury]

I thought it would be fun to bring some Mathhammer into the equation. Here's a breakdown of damage output (I applied the Nagash command ability to both, as I run him in my lists):

Here's a breakdown of their survivability:

As you can see, Black Knights are very dangerous on the charge, better than most units in the game actually. Worth noting- I did leave off the "fly over" attack the Hexwraiths have, as it's tough to calculate and equally tough to fly over a unit and still charge it, thanks to the 3" buffer (assuming your opponent isn't bunching their models up like a goober). Black Knights are worse than the average unit while stuck in combat for a round, but still have decent damage output.

Their survivability is very close, with Hexwraiths getting the slight nod. However, losing the options for cover and Mystic Shield are definite pitfalls.

They also have different abilities, with the Hexwraiths flying and the Black Knights benefiting from the Standard + Instrument.

Overall, I'd give the nod to the Black Knights, myself, but I can see merit in both options.

 

[Ahn-ket]

1 hour ago, Dracothjay said:

They don’t recieve ‘the bait’ benefit. It’s for skeleton warriors, not black knights or grave guards.

You are wrong 'the bait' says all LoN deathrattle units in your territory get +1 save

[Dracothjay]

2 minutes ago, Ahn-ket said:

You are wrong 'the bait' says all LoN deathrattle units in your territory get +1 save

Holy hell, what was I reading!? Just checked the tome. More reason to bring grave guard now ??

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, RoloMcFury said:

I thought it would be fun to bring some Mathhammer into the equation. Here's a breakdown of damage output (I applied the Nagash command ability to both, as I run him in my lists):

Here's a breakdown of their survivability:

As you can see, Black Knights are very dangerous on the charge, better than most units in the game actually. Worth noting- I did leave off the "fly over" attack the Hexwraiths have, as it's tough to calculate and equally tough to fly over a unit and still charge it, thanks to the 3" buffer (assuming your opponent isn't bunching their models up like a goober). Black Knights are worse than the average unit while stuck in combat for a round, but still have decent damage output.

Their survivability is very close, with Hexwraiths getting the slight nod. However, losing the options for cover and Mystic Shield are definite pitfalls.

They also have different abilities, with the Hexwraiths flying and the Black Knights benefiting from the Standard + Instrument.

Overall, I'd give the nod to the Black Knights, myself, but I can see merit in both options.

 

Yeah, that .051 damage per point vs 4+ save is on par with the offensively strongest units in the game.  And one of the strengths black knights have is that with their mobility they can deliver that against lower armor targets on the periphery while monsters and wizards handle the high armor stuff.

I think hex wraiths will see play once the nighthaunt battletome drops (assuming the rumors are accurate).

[Lord Veshnakar]

This is the kind of discussion I wanted, I appreciate the insight guys!

Yeah I am thinking I am going to run 10 Black Knights in my GHON. Buffed with Lord of Nagashizzar and the +1 attack command trait they will be dishing out 8 attacks a piece, 4 of which are 2 damage on the charge. That's pretty gnarly honestly. Not having rend is a potential issue but with their movement they can choose their fights and save the high armor targets for the Morghast.

[CoffeeGrunt]

10 Black Knights are a staple in my lists, but then I was the guy arguing that they were a good unit before LoN, haha, so I may just be crazy.

That said, I use them as a scouting unit mostly against low save units. A good, solid charge of 7-8 in contact is 15-17 attacks on 3s/3s with Damage 2, plus a smattering of horse kicks, which has shattered units and opened entire flanks for me in the past. Their middling durability and easy ability to regen means they're  present for most of the game. After they break a battleline unit I immediately follow up with support and pull them out. Do not leave them to get bogged down, that's when they really suck. Get them out straight away, take the turn to regen them, and then charge in next turn. Remember that you can Retreat forward, I often make a hole and pour them through it as opponents with thin lines of battle are easy to get past with a 12" move, and then they can fall into disarray trying to kill them before you charge their Heroes next turn and really hurt them.

They're not enough of a priority like Blood Knights or a Terrorgheist, but if you throw one each of those at their lines after the Black Knights soften it up, then your opponent is unlikely to properly commit to killing them. This leaves you a unit free to harass, hit weakened units, and make holes. For me personally it's been very useful, but I can see why Hexwraiths would be preferable with their movement abilities.

At the end of the day though, they're undead skeleton cavalry. That's the real reason I love running them.