I Hate My Kharadrons

[Vextol]

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

If you're building for the alpha strike, you won't be shooting at 3+ units

Staunch defender doesn't have to go off, it just 'is'.  3+ minimum for everyone around the general.   2+ reroll 1s on the Drake and concussors. 

And in your previous post, yes, he always has mirror shield.

[Burf]

13 hours ago, ledha said:

Both of those units are overpriced for what they do. The judicator does low damage and are completely dependant of good rolls of the prime, and the vanguard raptors have 6 wound with a 4+ save. Those unit have a 29/30 threath range, with low damage output on average which is less than skywarden, endririggers, or any boat shaeningan (barak ziflin come to mind). We take the judicator because they are a battleline and can sit on objective and participate, and vanguard raptors... well, i don't see much of them outside of an aetherstrike. 6 wound for 180 pts is a huge burden, they die as soon as something watch them

You are a kharadron. You have dozen of way to come and struck down a unit with ranged before it even react. The stormcast, who count on their high armor, suffer A LOT against rend-2

At -2 rend you'll most likely just be hitting against their base save and Judicators are one of the best shooting units in the game, they do pretty similar output to sky/endrinriggers on average dice. The issue is they're really really swingy. The Vanguard raptors are overpriced, yes.

Basically, a StarDrake StaunchDefender, fulminator bubble build is going to be decided by dice more than skill against your average clowncar build.

[Aeonotakist]

14 hours ago, ledha said:

Both of those units are overpriced for what they do. The judicator does low damage and are completely dependant of good rolls of the prime, and the vanguard raptors have 6 wound with a 4+ save. Those unit have a 29/30 threath range, with low damage output on average which is less than skywarden, endririggers, or any boat shaeningan (barak ziflin come to mind). We take the judicator because they are a battleline and can sit on objective and participate, and vanguard raptors... well, i don't see much of them outside of an aetherstrike. 6 wound for 180 pts is a huge burden, they die as soon as something watch them

You are a kharadron. You have dozen of way to come and struck down a unit with ranged before it even react. The stormcast, who count on their high armor, suffer A LOT against rend-2

Just wonder have you really played against traditional bunker shooting SE list. The Judicator and Raptor normally make you -1 to hit cause they are surrounded by Protectors. They also make you reroll 6 to hit by a Tempest Lamp. There general can even have -3 hit plus reroll 6 using a mirror shield.  It is literally invulnerable to  KO shooting. 

[BadgersinMeadows]

I'm not a KO player, but I do think that if you're not having fun playing against your opponent, perhaps ask him to modify his list? 

[Keldaur]

5 hours ago, Vextol said:

Staunch defender doesn't have to go off, it just 'is'.  3+ minimum for everyone around the general.   2+ reroll 1s on the Drake and concussors. 

And in your previous post, yes, he always has mirror shield.

The staunch defender has to go off. If he doesn't charge, then he will get the buff if i am not mistaken, first turn, he doesn't have the buff. Protectors  with lantern can be an issue, but we do not know what list you are playing against and what list he is playing, scenario, etc. It's very hard to give decent feedback.

[DantePQ]

If you don't like how your army works/plays why don't you exchange it or sell and buy army that suits you better ? Finding army that you love to play is important thing to enjoy hobby (in my opinion). 

[Vextol]

2 hours ago, Keldaur said:

The staunch defender has to go off. If he doesn't charge, then he will get the buff if i am not mistaken, first turn, he doesn't have the buff. Protectors  with lantern can be an issue, but we do not know what list you are playing against and what list he is playing, scenario, etc. It's very hard to give decent feedback.

I don't believe this is the case. It just says 'units within 6 inches gain +1 to their save if they don't charge'.  Nothing about turns. It also doesn't include the standard "until your next hero phase" common to abilities that need to go off.

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

If you don't like how your army works/plays why don't you exchange it or sell and buy army that suits you better ? Finding army that you love to play is important thing to enjoy hobby (in my opinion). 

Im not immune to that.  Ironjawz went way side and skaven the same back in 8th.  But I've read so much about how "OP teh kharadron are!"  So I assumed I must be playing them wrong.   

I think I was correct in thinking that they both aren't OP at all (as evidenced by their lack of placement in the tournaments since FAQs and GH 2017) and that my fear of all saws and arkanauts is turning out to be true.

Luckily for these guys, theirs models are cool enough that they will probably get a special place in my collection even if I find them a little uninteresting to play.

[Keldaur]

You are correct, I had read it wrong.

About playing it wrong or not. Post your list, post your opponent's list and the scenario you are playing, what your decisions were, etc, that will make it much easier to help you. The reason KO are strong is that they have some of the best matchups against top table armies, that does not mean that they do not have bad matchups.

 

[Vextol]

I will! I'm playing tonight but I'm Fielding nurgle. If I get smashed/smash fast enough I'll throw out a kharadron force.

[Keldaur]

At the end play what you enjoy the most, but I find KO to be an all or nothing army (kinda like Tau were in 40k in 5th edition). Either you bring a sharp list and know how to play the matchup, or you will get rolled over by other optimized lists. Especially true if you are playing an alpha strike list were target priority knowledge is a must. Anyways have fun with nurgle!

[FractalRain]

Hang in there Vextol!  It took me a while to win more than I lose with KO, but they can be fun.  You are right that it is unfortunate some of our units are not as optimal, so we tend to see similar lists, but fortunately, we can change it up depending on the games we are playing.  I have to admit, I haven't played against a SE player/army like you have and that sounds very tough. 

Also, I would checkout the latest Order FAQ as it did have some changes for SE Vanguard Wing and Hammerstrike, which may or may not impact your opponent's list. 

[Dez]

KO are really strong, and they are finishing top 10. I just don't think there are as many players. Gary Percival has been a terror on the UK scene and has been placing very high with them. 

[wanderingrogue]

2 hours ago, Vextol said:

Im not immune to that.  Ironjawz went way side and skaven the same back in 8th.  But I've read so much about how "OP teh kharadron are!"  So I assumed I must be playing them wrong.   

I think I was correct in thinking that they both aren't OP at all (as evidenced by their lack of placement in the tournaments since FAQs and GH 2017) and that my fear of all saws and arkanauts is turning out to be true.

Luckily for these guys, theirs models are cool enough that they will probably get a special place in my collection even if I find them a little uninteresting to play.

oh i dont know. 

top ten at finals - playing for the tourney

2nd at blood and glory

3rd at uk masters.

 

theyre doing ok since ghb17 

 

they are a finesse army tho tbf.  

[Vextol]

27 minutes ago, wanderingrogue said:

oh i dont know. 

top ten at finals - playing for the tourney

2nd at blood and glory

3rd at uk masters.

 

theyre doing ok since ghb17 

 

they are a finesse army tho tbf.  

Fair enough.  I'm just worried about them.  Nothing at LVO barring 20 arkanauts and if indeed the problem is that not many people play them, I fear they will quickly get the cuts for support from GW.  Tomb Kings much?

They are following the same trend as Beast Claw.  "They're so good!...They're pretty amazing!...They're very strong....They have some very good units...They are a one trick pony. 

It seems to be the trend though for these mini factions.  Sylvaneth kind of struggle from the same thing.  Invincible treelord or as zillion kurnoth hunters?   I'm not sure why GW wants to do this.  Disposessed, fireslayers, Ironweld and kharadrons could all become one-ish faction with widespread buffs and instantly have the same diversification as SCE.  Same with a lot of these guys.  Alliances don't cut it for armies that only play well with themselves. 

I'd love to sprinkle some fireslayers in but I find it's hard to maximize potency with no cross benefits.  Order has more than most, but since alliances became different than expected, stormcast is really the only faction that can beneefit from the cross order interactions.

I've belayed this point too far.  I will continue using these guys, again, because I love the models, but I'm hoping we will see a little diversification in the future.  That or they allow a FEW more allies to spice things up without breaking allegiance.

 

 

[wanderingrogue]

good allies i found were 20 tunnelling vulkites or a good chunk of free people archers

[stato]

5 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Fair enough.  I'm just worried about them.  Nothing at LVO barring 20 arkanauts.  They are following the same trend as Beast Claw.  "They're so good!...They're pretty amazing!...They're very strong....They have some very good units...They are a one trick pony.  It seems to be the trend though.  Sylvaneth kind of struggle from the same thing.  Invincible treelord or as zillion kurnoth hunters? 

I've belayed this point too far.  I will continue using these guys, again, because I love the models, but I'm hoping we will see a little diversification in the future.  That or they allow a FEW more allies to spice things up without breaking allegiance.

What faction does well with very different lists?  None so far.  Every faction has a core that you 'need' if you want to be top.  You can still do well with other builds though, KO included.

[Vextol]

4 minutes ago, stato said:

What faction does well with very different lists?  None so far.  Every faction has a core that you 'need' if you want to be top.  You can still do well with other builds though, KO included.

This is true.  'Order' as a whole does better than most but you definitely do see recurring themes.  Stormcast seems to have a lot of variety, though, they have 4 times the models available so it's not really fair to compare.  Bonesplitterz (which I sold) definitely had that problem of "one list".  Seraphon can make a lot of different, pretty solid lists but without Kroak, they aren't very competitive. 

Maybe it's just "Age of Sigmar" that's getting me down! 

[Vextol]

So here's what I'm dealing with on a regular basis. 

As a kharadron player, what would you do here?  Note this scenario was "Battle for the Pass".  Castellant has light of reroll 6s or the stardrake will have mirror shield (changes) and the stardrake has staunch defender.  The relictor has lightning chariot and the protectors are usually just there on deployment.  They are usually the first to teleport and they go wherever useful.  Once they surround a midpoint, I can't ever get it back and they slowly off my guys with judicators and stardrake twinkle (or the stardrake directly if they need to wipe off big units) until they eventually get the second midpoint.  Then if I'm not completely dead they just sit there.  The castellants move around very little, just enough to stay in range of everything and not leave the stardrake. 

They usually kill of the judicators so they keep that 'handle' for staunch defender and all the primes.   The liberators are mostly just a tax but can be used to block me occasionally.

 The protectors are just there to keep the castellants safe from a potential flank.  The relictor teleports anything with lightning chariot to safer/more useful locations.

So, what would you take/how would you approach this situation?  I know that big units are good in this situation, but this is obviously specific to the scenario.  Occasionally they drop the stardrake, add another castellant and make the liberator unit huge.

Also, should this be a new thread? I never know when to make a new one.

[Freejack02]

For that scenario setup, he has committed a LOT of points to his turtle-shell - and you need to exploit that. 400 points of Protectors just to protect his flank? 640 points of Judicators toeing the front line, with no screen? Yikes. You are likely 1-2 drop vs his 7 drop, so if I were you I would take first turn and rush both middle points. Get em capped, get bodies on and around em, get whatever shooting that you can out against the Judicators before the lantern buffs come online - but capping early is the most important thing. Keep something small back on your point, just to make sure he can't tele onto it for free. This forces him to react and become mobile - something it looks like that force does not want to do. You're up 5-1. On his turn he buffs, moves up likely into the formation you are showing, and tries to shoot the hell out of you. He probably does, but he still has to advance to cap. Lightning Chariot can't go within 9", and Stardrakes aren't too fast. He likely misses the LR unit charge (I'm guessing the Protectors), decent chance he makes the Stardrake charge, but he probably won't wipe out all units to cap it. If he doesn't double-turn, then onturn two hunker down and try to survive. If you got the Stardrake to move away from the main unit, the Judicators don't have Staunch anymore - unload everything you can on them. If you can retain both points, you have a commanding lead.  

I think you can only really crack that army two ways (as you don't have mortal wound spam) - capping early and forcing him to split up and rush you, or an all-out alpha strike targeting both units of Judicators on the first turn. They aren't high bravery, and 3+ saves aren't impossible to crack - if you go whole hog you could likely wipe out both of them, which absolutely cripples his offense. Kill 6 models of each unit and he loses the other 3-4 to battleshock on average. Now I don't know the specifics of KO battalions/abilities, but I do have a bit of experience playing SCE against them. Placing 20 Judicators (1/3 of my points) on the front line (with no screen) when the opponent dictates first turn would terrify me... I would expect to get jumped on immediately and wouldn't be confident about making a recovery. The formation here seems extremely brazen, and I think it's beatable. 

If I've made any egregious blunders in this scenario, I whole-heartedly blame the late hour. 

[stato]

Yeah id agree with Freejack, for that scanario id have first turn and would try to take off the relictor, using "There's No Trading With Some People" to put as many woulds in as possible. That would still leave most of my firepower to shoot at each unit of the Judicators, hoping for battleshock off a few too, only leaving some stragglers.  Id only be moving forward with most of my force just enough to get in range in the first turn.  Id probably skirt my frigate to one objective with the riggers either still on board or following behind depending on how I felt about the risk of counterattack and places to deploy them. My Azyros and unit of Prosecutor allies to the other objective to get the re-roll 1 on shooting and as an irritant he would have to deal with. Once spread out that way he would have to respond to my flanks as a priority but that would take all his effort, leaving my main force unhurt and free to punish him again next turn.

He basically has 4 threats.

1. Relictor
2. Judicators
3. Judicators
4. Stardrake

Deal with the relictor before he can do anything and the protectors can then be dealt with on your terms later. Judicators just need taken down as quick as possible, stardrake needs to be distracted so you can deal with the other threats before it removes your ability to do so.  

This is my current list, its a bit static though so ill probably go back to my previous version which was 6 wardens and 2x3 prosecutors as it was easier to get objectives with more units.

Spoiler

Skyport: Barak-Mhornar
- Additional Footnote: There's No Trading With Some People
Leaders
Aether-Khemist (140)
- General
- Command Trait : Opportunistic Privateers
Aether-Khemist (140)
- Artefact : Aethershock Earbuster
Knight-Azyros (80)
- Allies
Units
30 x Arkanaut Company (360)
- 9 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Light Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut Company (120)
- 3 x Aethermatic Volley Guns
9 x Endrinriggers (360)
- 2 x Grapnel Launchers
9 x Skywardens (300)
- 3 x Aethermatic Volley Guns
- 3 x Drill Cannons
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (100)
- 1 x Stormsurge Tridents
- Allies
War Machines
Arkanaut Frigate (280)
- Main Gun : Heavy Sky Cannon
- Great Endrinworks : The Last Word

 

[Vextol]

Thanks for the advice. 

The setup above is how the game starts usually.  He's not moving into that position, he starts in that position.  The relictor is typically 32 inches or so away from my territory and he almost always gets placed last.  How are you guys getting in range when you talk about killing him early?  With an iron clad and a frigate you are only looking at effectively moving 30 guys to shoot and you can't khemist them.  That means your looking at 9 skyhooks?  That's not enough. 

As for killing the judicators, again, I can't get in range.  They are usually 15 inches off center, meaning I'm looking at a 27 inch gap for my closest unit.  How is everyone moving that unit of 40 arkanauts?  They have an 18/24 inch range meaning first turn my maximum potential range for the bulk of their shooting is 22 inches. The skyhooks will go 26 but that's not enough either.  Am I missing something with their movement?

And for the other option of moving to the center (12 inches away) and holding, don't you need big units to hold?  Same question. How are you getting there turn 1?

[stato]

46 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Thanks for the advice. 

The setup above is how the game starts usually.  He's not moving into that position, he starts in that position.  The relictor is typically 32 inches or so away from my territory and he almost always gets placed last.  How are you guys getting in range when you talk about killing him early?  With an iron clad and a frigate you are only looking at effectively moving 30 guys to shoot and you can't khemist them.  That means your looking at 9 skyhooks?  That's not enough. 

For my list, Mhornar can run and shoot first turn, so my arkanaut threat range is 24+4+D6. If they know that and deploy everything out of that range its a different game, they have now put themselves out of range too and I can give them first turn, deploying out of shooting range and with a screen of units of 10 arkanauts in front of my unit of 30 incase the protectors get dropped on my line and get that 9" charge. Khemists would be in the frigate with some balloon guys screening behind it to ensure it couldnt be charged.  He would likely move something onto a side objective or both. Id then have my turn, all units would move up (run and shoot first turn for shooty units too), fast units would move up to a side objective.  Mhornars other trick is re-roll to-hit on a single target when units are within 3" of the general. So 9 skyhooks buffed for 18 shots, re-roll to hit (=~12 hits, 9 wounds, 6 through a 3+ save, av2 damage = 6 dead judicators and some more from battleshock. I still have Frigate, Skywardens, Prosecutors to shoot .  Priorities may change now depending where he put his protectors. If they are on an objective they are now probably more important than the relictor, but id still probably hit the Judicators first and either take out the Protectors in combat with Riggers or keep back from them this turn.  If I get a double turn thats his other unit of Judicators gone too, and even if i dont im in the same position i was if id gone first.  

 

EDIT; Also, I never use the boats to move people.  Dwarfs in boats cant shoot, I dont want to be putting myself into a position where I cant shoot but can be shot at (the boats), but then i dont have an ironclad so cant carry 20.  If i need speed i use fast units, boats, wardens/riggers, allies (Prosecutors in my list)

[Vextol]

29 minutes ago, stato said:

For my list, Mhornar can run and shoot first turn, so my arkanaut threat range is 24+4+D6. If they know that and deploy everything out of that range its a different game, they have now put themselves out of range too and I can give them first turn, deploying out of shooting range and with a screen of units of 10 arkanauts in front of my unit of 30 incase the protectors get dropped on my line and get that 9" charge. Khemists would be in the frigate with some balloon guys screening behind it to ensure it couldnt be charged.  He would likely move something onto a side objective or both. Id then have my turn, all units would move up (run and shoot first turn for shooty units too), fast units would move up to a side objective.  Mhornars other trick is re-roll to-hit on a single target when units are within 3" of the general. So 9 skyhooks buffed for 18 shots, re-roll to hit (=~12 hits, 9 wounds, 6 through a 3+ save, av2 damage = 6 dead judicators and some more from battleshock. I still have Frigate, Skywardens, Prosecutors to shoot .  Priorities may change now depending where he put his protectors. If they are on an objective they are now probably more important than the relictor, but id still probably hit the Judicators first and either take out the Protectors in combat with Riggers or keep back from them this turn.  If I get a double turn thats his other unit of Judicators gone too, and even if i dont im in the same position i was if id gone first.  

 

EDIT; Also, I never use the boats to move people.  Dwarfs in boats cant shoot, I dont want to be putting myself into a position where I cant shoot but can be shot at (the boats), but then i dont have an ironclad so cant carry 20.  If i need speed i use fast units, boats, wardens/riggers, allies (Prosecutors in my list)

I like it except if you give up the first turn, the protectors will try to teleport in front of one of the units of judicators, whichever moves toward an objective, and form an arc.  The other judicators unit will fall back to just in range of the other point but not take it.  Both will stay in range of staunch by moving the Drake up slightly and the castellants will buff one unit of judicators and probably the protectors (this is what happened last time).  Then, with the super buffed judicators they will just wait until I'm weak enough, hold a stalemate on objectives until turn 4/5 and advance against the last point.

It moves them a little away from their point but it's too far away to get to, even with grapnel launchers. 

Last game they never charged.  Exclusively defensive strategy.  Any unit I move against the back point got shot or eaten.  My ship went down turn 2.  I managed to almost take the back point using endriggers but the liberators kept models present and the Drake ate three balloons before even attacking with it's regular stuff. It was a slaughter. 

Edit: Last game the judicators we're setup 24+4+4 inches away from me, so 8 inches off center.  They were TECHNICALLY in range, but 50% of the time you'd miss your mark.

[stato]

28 minutes ago, Vextol said:

I like it except if you give up the first turn, the protectors will try to teleport in front of one of the units of judicators, whichever moves toward an objective, and form an arc.  The other judicators unit will fall back to just in range of the other point but not take it.  Both will stay in range of staunch by moving the Drake up slightly and the castellants will buff one unit of judicators and probably the protectors (this is what happened last time).  Then, with the super buffed judicators they will just wait until I'm weak enough, hold a stalemate on objectives until turn 4/5 and advance against the last point.

It moves them a little away from their point but it's too far away to get to, even with grapnel launchers. 

Last game they never charged.  Exclusively defensive strategy.  Any unit I move against the back point got shot or eaten.  My ship went down turn 2.  I managed to almost take the back point using endriggers but the liberators kept models present and the Drake ate three balloons before even attacking with it's regular stuff. It was a slaughter. 

Edit: Last game the judicators we're setup 24+4+4 inches away from me, so 8 inches off center.  They were TECHNICALLY in range, but 50% of the time you'd miss your mark.

I think you need to accept you will go behind on points initially, this is pretty common with KO.  They key is to minimise losses to your units while deleting his, picking on one unit at a time, to ensure you have freedom to take the middle objectives or his back one in the later turns.   

Essentially though his list is built very much optimised, especially so against shooting, and played well by the looks of it.  Its not a surprise its difficult to play against, especially if you are taking a mish-mash and not using synergies like he is. Does he take the same list against other lists like tzeentch or fyreslayers?  If i was building specifically to play this list id take loads of arkanuts with hooks and big unit of riggers, then just bury his protectors in dice and take his stardrake off in a single combat phase LOL!