The Gods and the Mortal Realms, what are they, and how are they seen?

[Cèsar de Quart]

Hi there!

I'm new and I've seen that there's quite a vibrant community about AoS lore here. I've been trying to make AoS lore click for a while, and I think I'm closer and closer to this world making sense and being an interesting setting to explore and develop.

Several things are a problem, though. The first and most pressing one is, how are the Gods percieved?

Are they like 40k Chaos Gods, feeding on their subjects' belief and emotion?

Are they just very powerful beings?

Are they "personalisations" of each of the Lores of Magic, along with a snippet of their old personality and memories?

And, most importantly, are they revered and adores indistinctively as a single pantheon?

For example, let's picture the Ten Cities of Rhodania, a league of merchant cities excavated on the Whiterock Cliffs. Who do they worship? Sigmar, Grugni, Grimnir, Alarielle, the whole bunch? Tyrion and Teclis especially? Under different names and forms, I imagine. Maybe even different aspects of them. What does Sigmar, or Tyrion, "get" in return? Do they even care? Do they answer, what is the measure of their power? Are they linked to their realms, or can they travel them? 

Also, what is Hysh like? How's life in Chamon, in Shysh...? Is imagination my limit, or are there some more limits?

The rules of this universe are vague and the references are poorly set up. So, I've been trying to come up with my own set of rules. Also, to me, making the gods the main characters subtracts from the mystery of the divine and the appeal of Chaos. Chaos was appealing because it was the only true godly force in the world (before the gods were retconned to being real all along), it was the solution. It made sense for people to delve into the mysteries of Chaos, and also to keep it a secret. Now in AoS, I imagine Sigmar more as the Big Brother or Viking Hitler than anything else, conquering for the sake of conquest or dominion. Before, we knew Men ruled the realms of Men, not Chaos, and we wanted Men to continue to rule. Now, it's... complicated. And not in an appealing way.

Any ideas (from books or novels, or even -and especially- your own) are most welcome. I just want to feel that the Mortal Realms are alive, and give them some sense and meaning.

Thanks!
 

[shinros]

Hello, I recommend taking a look at this website. It has information on the realms and a timeline etc. 

https://malignportents.com/

Also this video is an introduction to the realms by phil kelly. 

Now the gods? They remember the end times so they have an active gain in stopping chaos, chaos has it's hands in multiple realms , worlds and dimensions. The whfb world was one small world to them.  Also sigmar, tyrion etc can't do everything at once hence why the gods still work through proxies, champions and priests etc. A greater daemon of nurgle even states that the gods of the mortal realms are pretty much children compared to the chaos gods power. 

[Menkeroth]

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

The first and most pressing one is, how are the Gods percieved?

As real things as they once walked the realms like mortals, and some still do. And they are all real, anyway.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Are they like 40k Chaos Gods, feeding on their subjects' belief and emotion?

Yes, this too.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Are they just very powerful beings?

 

More than this, although this does not prevent them from being kicked in the ass. By Archaon, for instance.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Are they "personalisations" of each of the Lores of Magic, along with a snippet of their old personality and memories?

 

Yes, to some degree, depending on the god in question, Sigmar or Gorkamorka are not the exact personalisations of the winds, but Nagash or Alarielle - yes.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

And, most importantly, are they revered and adores indistinctively as a single pantheon?

 

They were, in the past. Now they all have gone their own path.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

For example, let's picture the Ten Cities of Rhodania, a league of merchant cities excavated on the Whiterock Cliffs. Who do they worship? Sigmar, Grugni, Grimnir, Alarielle, the whole bunch? Tyrion and Teclis especially? Under different names and forms, I imagine. Maybe even different aspects of them. What does Sigmar, or Tyrion, "get" in return? Do they even care? Do they answer, what is the measure of their power? Are they linked to their realms, or can they travel them? 

It always depends on the author or plot, for mortals revere many gods, but can worship one of them as well. In Shyish or Ghyran it's one god, but in Azyrheim it's not only Sigmar but sometimes other, lesser deities, like Khaine. What in return? Their faith, ability to use the believers in their own purposes, such stuff. Like Sigmar, who uses his fanatics (Devoted of Sigmar) as additional cannon fodder and consecrators of the Chaos-tainted earth. As a result, they mostly are tied to their domain, but then they are the strongest there.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Also, what is Hysh like? How's life in Chamon, in Shysh...? Is imagination my limit, or are there some more limits?

Hysh is not covered yet, sadly. But in any case there are lots of books which provide some information, if you would like to read. 

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Now in AoS, I imagine Sigmar more as the Big Brother or Viking Hitler than anything else, conquering for the sake of conquest or dominion

It is so, you are right. And anyway he is a kind of god I would not want to follow. He is not a nice guy, and his megalomania is second to none, even Nagash pales in comparison.

11 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Any ideas (from books or novels, or even -and especially- your own) are most welcome. I just want to feel that the Mortal Realms are alive, and give them some sense and meaning.

 

They are more alive than WHFB ever was, or many other settings before and after, so don't worry that much about it.

[Tiger]

Don't forget on god-beasts. Ur-Phoenix for instance is a creature that has great meaning to the elves. The following is just my pondering, however I suspect customs such as ancestral worship (city and tribal dwellers), shamanism (tribal), paying respect to the unknown gods are rather plausible concepts. This makes me rather excited, particularly with ancestral worship as it's possible to commune with your ancestral line and that could develop rather interesting relationship in the multi-racial cities. Ancestral worship was always more of a Dwarf thing but now you could get concepts that are accepted by the elves, dwarfs and humans. Interesting scenario, in my view.

I also lurk on Dakka and few posters mentioned that Nagash can't hold on the souls indefinitely and after a while they move on from what the soul would consider its realm of the afterlife. It's implied that that the concept of rebirth is plausible. Nagash took over all the realms of the afterlife which were previously governed by the various gods of the dead.

Quote

Are they like 40k Chaos Gods, feeding on their subjects' belief and emotion?

They are similar, however the chaos gods I consider some sort of a cosmic jest. Sigmar, Nagash, Tyrion and so on appear to have personality that drives them, the chaos gods on the other hand appear less cohesive, they're  negative energy given form and impulse to spread it. There are similar "divine" concepts and "mechanics" across all of them, what they chose to do/or simply can do with it is up to them (or isn't depending how much free will you think they have).

[CJPT]

I would strongly recommend reading the recent Josh Reynolds books (Spear of Shadows and Nagash: The Undying King particularly) as they've got answers to almost all of these questions.

[HorticulusTGA]

47 minutes ago, CJPT said:

I would strongly recommend reading the recent Josh Reynolds books (Spear of Shadows and Nagash: The Undying King particularly) as they've got answers to almost all of these questions.

100% what CJPT said. Very good reads !

14 hours ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

(....) Now in AoS, I imagine Sigmar more as the Big Brother or Viking Hitler than anything else, conquering for the sake of conquest or dominion. Before, we knew Men ruled the realms of Men, not Chaos, and we wanted Men to continue to rule. Now, it's... complicated. And not in an appealing way. (...).
 

Alas that's very wrong. Sigmar arrived in the Realms to bring civilization, balance and peace. He wanted to create an utopia for anyone to leave in, even Destruction and Death - after what happened in the World-that-was.

You have to raid the AOS main book, and the tragic story about the transition Age of Myth / Age of Chaos, to understand why Sigmar is how he is now.

You'll see why Sigmar is still THE good guy here, trying to forge alliances (even with Destruction and Death still), trying to protect the innocents and the weak, liberating slaves, and driving  out of existence the horrors of torture, slavery and madness that Chaos bring.  Yes, sometimes by any means necessary (but being the warrior god king of thunder, in age of unending war fighting against cosmic monsters, sometimes you have to make hard choices). 

One last thing : you should read about the WFB End times and the Incarnates. Otherwise you won't really see how the gods and the Mortal realms work (also the AOS Skirmish book, it explain quickly the relation of a god and his realm).

And remember that Sigmar and co are still gods living in reality, i.e. in space and time (so not in the other dimension of the Realm of Chaos). The Mortal Realms are made of matter and, yes, magic, which give the (mortal) gods ... divine power, but they are not like the Chaos gods in that they are not sustained only by the beliefs and souls of their worshippers. They are a bit like gods and demi gods of greek mythology, i.e. they are still persons. (so not all-knowing, all-powerful like the Chaos gods in their own domains).

Hope that helps and welcome !

[Cèsar de Quart]

22 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

You'll see why Sigmar is still THE good guy here, trying to forge alliances (even with Destruction and Death still), trying to protect the innocents and the weak, liberating slaves, and driving  out of existence the horrors of torture, slavery and madness that Chaos bring.  Yes, sometimes by any means necessary (but being the warrior god king of thunder, in age of unending war fighting against cosmic monsters, sometimes you have to make hard choices). 

One last thing : you should read about the WFB End times and the Incarnates. Otherwise you won't really see how the gods and the Mortal realms work (also the AOS Skirmish book, it explain quickly the relation of a god and his realm).

And remember that Sigmar and co are still gods living in reality, i.e. in space and time (so not in the other dimension of the Realm of Chaos). The Mortal Realms are made of matter and, yes, magic, which give the (mortal) gods ... divine power, but they are not like the Chaos gods in that they are not sustained only by the beliefs and souls of their worshippers. They are a bit like gods and demi gods of greek mythology, i.e. they are still persons. (so not all-knowing, all-powerful like the Chaos gods in their own domains).

Hope that helps and welcome !

 

I'd prefer if there was no "good guys" outright. On the other hand, this is helpful, 'cause now I'm getting the idea about a group of people who think Sigmar is a tyrant, but who also reject Chaos. It will be a difficult struggle for them, surely...

I've read the End Times books, but I didn't get the general idea of what being an Incarnate really means, and it doesn't seem like Sigmar/Karl Franz, Teclis, Tyrion and the others could do what the gods of the Mortal Realms can do (shapeshifting, existing in several places at once, being "sort of" omniscient...).

Thanks for all the input! Invaluable! You're really giving me the irk for some AoS narrative games.

I'll be posting my own developments of the AoS lore (my own interpretations or expansions) in case anyone wants to take a look and give their opinion, correct essential mistakes... I know the WHFB lore to its core, so there'll probably be a tad too much Old World influence, but we'll see.

Related to this, one of the stories is about a Striking of Stormcasts created to retrieve and watch over "relics" of the Old World, especifically "fossilised" remains of the Gods of the Old World. The Heart of Shallya, the Skull of Ulric, the Sword of Solkan, the Shield of Myrmidia... they're not actual swords or shields, more like... the Skull of Ulric is a mountain which resembles a fossilised wolf skull in the Winterlands of Ghur... this sort of stuff. 
 

Thanks!

[HorticulusTGA]

9 minutes ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

Related to this, one of the stories is about a Striking of Stormcasts created to retrieve and watch over "relics" of the Old World, especifically "fossilised" remains of the Gods of the Old World. The Heart of Shallya, the Skull of Ulric, the Sword of Solkan, the Shield of Myrmidia... they're not actual swords or shields, more like... the Skull of Ulric is a mountain which resembles a fossilised wolf skull in the Winterlands of Ghur... this sort of stuff. 

That sounds really cool ! 

You could find inspiration in :

- The Realmgate Wars : Quest for Ghal Maraz (we hear about a splinter of the Oak of Ages Past in Ghyran)

- City Of Secrets (again - we learn about a part of the World That Was now planted in Ghur),

- The novel "Warbeast" : there may by a part of the story about an old WFB god  

---

As you said, Sigmar is not "outright" the good guy - he'd gladly purge whole tribes to clean Chaos - but he's clearly not "Viking Hitler", or "conquering for the sake of conquest".

---

In ET : Khaine, and at the end of ET : Archaon, you understand a bit of what magic did Teclis used to create the Incarnates. And of course, they were less powerful than the gods they are now, because the World-before-time was a normal planet, with "only" the winds of magic enabling magic manifestations. Now, the Mortal Realms are way bigger, and literally made of magic (as well as matter, they are still are in the materium, not in the warp).

At least that's what (IMO) Alarielle tells Tyrion before they are swallowed by the rift ; with their Incarnates power and without the conflicting influence of Chaos, the incarnates could have created new worlds "peacefully". And if the world was destroyed anyway, that didn't stop the magic at work to eventually forming the Mortal Realms.

[Cèsar de Quart]

Thanks for the advice, I've purchased Spear of Shadows and will be reading it shortly.

Should I post here my attemtps at atmospheric stories, or should I create a new thread for that?

 

An excerp from my attempt at trying to flesh out Hyish for my storomcast White Wardens:

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Few places in the Realms are as luminous as Hyish; but the brightest lights cast the darkest shadows.

The Lands of Everday are vast, intricate and, once, full of hidden meaning and untold knowledge, arcane symmetries, riddles and insight. The Age of Chaos changed all that, and Hyish shows the scars of aeons of corruption and devastation. 

Roaming bands of air nomads wallow among the clouds seeking new ports to trade; aelven brigands and clans of exiled man-tribes, itinerant covens of cults to reason, warbands of khornate veterans left behind by their hosts, lonely wizards in a quest for illumination, they all travel the scarred salt plains and scorched white deserts, the once shimmering forests burnt to the core, the renowned Argent Valley, now red and black with the scars of war. 

The Helm of Vaul, however, stands tall and black, a stark figure cut against the bright landscape. It is called the Vaula Tyvarna, the Vaulic Shard, and the Hovering Castle. An obsidian formation in the shape of a crystal with an ancient orrery carved in its heart. It is the seat of the White Wardens, the Stormcast Host tasked with recovering the Helm of Vaul from the Realm of Light. Now, the very artifact they had to recover has become their mobile fortress, the base of their patrol. It is said that the Lady-Celestant Aislinn found the Shard after the Loremaster himself, Teclis the Wise, the Scrier of Worlds, appeared in her dreams. There, he spoke of his spiteful brother, Tyrion the Lord of Lumination, the Blind Phoenix, and of his friend the Forge Master, the Chained Smith, whose helm, his last remnant, hid a forge untainted by the Ruinous Powers, and she had to find the City in Dusk in order to uncover its location. In Hyish, nothing is apparent, everything deserves a second look, and light reveals, but only to the initiated, only to those not blinded by it. Thus spoke Teclis, Loremaster. 

Sometime later, a roving aelf called Intil, blind and maimed, arrived at the Wardens' airship, mounted in his flying aetovixen. He claimed to be an envoy from the Loremaster, with help from above, and that the way would be long and dreadful, but there was no time to lose. The City in Dusk awaited.

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What do you think? I know Hyish has not been explored at all for now, and maybe some of this is going to be way off, but the good thing about the Mortal Realms is that anything goes.