Can I..?

[PhantomBaz]

Hello Fellow Chaos-ians,

I'm looking for some clarification, I've recently bought a Disciple of Tzeentch book to aid my Slaves of darkness. I came across the allegiance abilities and one part in particular; "If all the starting untils and warscrolls battalions in your army follow tzeentch- including any units that you assign the tzeentch keyword to during set-up then your army has the tzeentch allegiance" 

Now the part I've having trouble with is " including any units  that you assign the tzeentch keyword". Does this mean that i can set up say a sorcerer lord on a manticore, give him alone the tzeentch key word and he can have  the  tzeentch allegiance, i.e  destiny dice. 

Many thanks

 
       

[SpiritofHokuto]

This is further clarified in the GHB FAQ. In terms of Pitched Battles you have to declare your marks in your army list before setting the models up. This will allow you access to the respective allegiance.

[Kramer]

What @SpiritofHokuto said. 

The reason that it is phrased so wierdly is (i think) to also deal with units that gain or change keywords during the game. Varanguard spring to mind.

[Killax]

9 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

This is further clarified in the GHB FAQ. In terms of Pitched Battles you have to declare your marks in your army list before setting the models up. This will allow you access to the respective allegiance.

Exactly this! 

So yes, you can use Destiny Dice on any model with the Tzeentch Keyword in a Tzeentch Allegiance army. Keep in mind though, Allegiance abilities so far have always been Keyword tied. 

[Chris Tomlin]

48 minutes ago, PhantomBaz said:

Hello Fellow Chaos-ians,

Oh...I assumed your name would be Baz, not Ian

 

 

 

...Sorry, couldn't help myself!

[PhantomBaz]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Exactly this! 

So yes, you can use Destiny Dice on any model with the Tzeentch Keyword in a Tzeentch Allegiance army. Keep in mind though, Allegiance abilities so far have always been Keyword tied. 

so let try this, I want to take a Slave to darkness army,  a sorcerer lord on a manticore with a mark of tzeentch, Warriors/knights  with a mark of Khorne with a bloodsecrator allied. Would i still be able to use  Destiny Dice as i have a "unit" with the key word Tzeentch.

[PhantomBaz]

1 hour ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

This is further clarified in the GHB FAQ. In terms of Pitched Battles you have to declare your marks in your army list before setting the models up. This will allow you access to the respective allegiance.

so if i take warriors/Knight with the mark of Khorne, a sorcerer with the mark a Tzeentch can i still use the destiny dice as it is a unit with keyword tzeentch.   

[Killax]

10 minutes ago, PhantomBaz said:

so let try this, I want to take a Slave to darkness army,  a sorcerer lord on a manticore with a mark of tzeentch, Warriors/knights  with a mark of Khorne with a bloodsecrator allied. Would i still be able to use  Destiny Dice as i have a "unit" with the key word Tzeentch.

No, because so far the indication still seems that you choose one Allegiance per army. If you call yourself a Slaves to Darkness army the assumption is made that you use the Slaves to Darkness Allegiance.

If you choose the Slaves to Darkness Allegiance you get acces to those Allegiance abilities. This includes Eye of the Gods, all Command Traits, Artefacts etc.
If you choose the Tzeentch Allegiance you get acces to those Allegiance abilities. This includes Destiny Dice, all Command Traits, Spell Lores etc.
If you choose the Khorne Allegiance you get acces to those Allegiance abilities. This includes Blood Tithe, all Artefacts, Blood Blessings etc.

The moment you choose one Allegiance you choose one and only have acces to what that Allegiance has to offer. There is a small irk in that GH2017 suggests that Allies can have a different Allegiance but so far I have not seen a single Tournament who has played out the wording like it says in one particular sentence.

So far all Allies Ive faced and seen on the board do not have an Allegiance benifit at all. I believe this to be the intention aswell.  

[Killax]

In addition there still is a difference between Faction and Allegiance, the issue is that GH2017 isn't really clear on the subject. However the difference is:
- In order to be part of a Faction you need to be listed in such a way per GH2017. Factions currently do not all match models who are capable to part of an Allegiance.
- In order to be part of an Allegiance you need to have the Keyword that is required to be part of that Allegiance. 

In this case you could have a whole range of Slaves to Darkness (faction) models but use the Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle Allegiance because all models within that faction do have acces to that Keyword. The other way around several models from the Blades of Khorne faction do not have the Slaves to Darkness Keyword and cannot be part of that Allegiance, the same applies for the Desciples of Tzeentch faction. 

[PhantomBaz]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

In addition there still is a difference between Faction and Allegiance, the issue is that GH2017 isn't really clear on the subject. However the difference is:
- In order to be part of a Faction you need to be listed in such a way per GH2017. Factions currently do not all match models who are capable to part of an Allegiance.
- In order to be part of an Allegiance you need to have the Keyword that is required to be part of that Allegiance. 

In this case you could have a whole range of Slaves to Darkness (faction) models but use the Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle Allegiance because all models within that faction do have acces to that Keyword. The other way around several models from the Blades of Khorne faction do not have the Slaves to Darkness Keyword and cannot be part of that Allegiance, the same applies for the Desciples of Tzeentch faction. 

this is still a bit confusing; reading the allegiance from the Tzneetch, "if all the starting units and warsc... in your army  follow tzneetch, -including any units you assign the tzeentch keyword... then your army has the tzeentch allegiance" so for example; If took a sorcerer lord and give the key word tzeentch  i would have that allegiance for him alone. 
As i can, in Slave to darkness, set out key words for individual unit.  

[Fireymonkeyboy]

 

Allegiance is by army.  Your entire force (excluding allies) will share a single allegiance, i.e., a keyword with associated allegiance abilities, artifacts, etc.   The defaults are one of the 4 grand alliances.  ALL models in the Chaos GA have the "CHAOS" keyword, and are thus eligible for use in an an army with GA: Chaos allegiance.  Because most models have multiple keywords, they are eligible for use in armies with different allegiances.  

In the case you are discussing, because the Sorcerer lord has Slaves to Darkness as a keyword, and can take Tzeentch as a mark (and hence as a keyword), it can be used in an army with either Slaves to Darkness or Tzeentch as its allegiance.  The Sorcerer himself, however, does not have an allegiance - armies have them, not models.  So even if you take the Sorcerer in a Slaves to Darkness allegiance force, and you give him the Tzeentch keyword, he stays part of the StD force (as he has that keyword, and you are including him in the force on that basis).

Where it gets a little weird is with Allies.  Allies are organised off what Killax referred to as "faction", by which he means the headings they appear under in the GH17.  If you took an army with Slaves to Darkness allegiance, you can ally with Disciples of Tzeentch.  Now, DoT allegiance is based off the keyword "Tzeentch" - anything with that keyword can be taken in the allegiance, and gain the benefits of belonging to such a force.  Your sorcerer lord with the Tzeentch keyword, for example, could be taken in a Disciples of Tzeentch force.  However, the sorcerer lord with Tzeentch mark does NOT (as best as we can tell) count as a Disciples of Tzeentch model for the purpose of being an ally, because in the GH17, the model is listed under Slaves to Darkness faction.

So, in short, the Sorcerer Lord with mark of Tzeentch doesn't have an allegiance, but can be taken in either a Slaves to Darkness allegiance force, or a (Disciples of) Tzeentch allegiance force, but belongs to the Slaves of Darkness faction, NOT the Disciples of Tzeentch faction.

FMB

[AverageBoss]

If you declare that you are using a Slaves to Darkness army, then all your units must have the StD keyword, or be acceptable allies. You will then get the traits, abilities, and artifacts for running an StD army listed in the new GHB.

If you give all your StD models the Mark of Tzeentch, then you have the option of declaring them as a Tzeentch army. At this point, you would instead get all the benefits of a Tzeentch army (Destiny Dice, the ability to take anything with the Tzeentch keyword without it counting as allies) and restrictions (different ally list).

The short of it is that StD models that can take marks are very versatile, and can be run in several different armies. But you have to pick which army you will be running (Chaos GA, StD, Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, or Slannesh) and stick with those rules (and only those rules) for your entire force.

[PhantomBaz]

38 minutes ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

 

Allegiance is by army.  Your entire force (excluding allies) will share a single allegiance, i.e., a keyword with associated allegiance abilities, artifacts, etc.   The defaults are one of the 4 grand alliances.  ALL models in the Chaos GA have the "CHAOS" keyword, and are thus eligible for use in an an army with GA: Chaos allegiance.  Because most models have multiple keywords, they are eligible for use in armies with different allegiances.  

In the case you are discussing, because the Sorcerer lord has Slaves to Darkness as a keyword, and can take Tzeentch as a mark (and hence as a keyword), it can be used in an army with either Slaves to Darkness or Tzeentch as its allegiance.  The Sorcerer himself, however, does not have an allegiance - armies have them, not models.  So even if you take the Sorcerer in a Slaves to Darkness allegiance force, and you give him the Tzeentch keyword, he stays part of the StD force (as he has that keyword, and you are including him in the force on that basis).

Where it gets a little weird is with Allies.  Allies are organised off what Killax referred to as "faction", by which he means the headings they appear under in the GH17.  If you took an army with Slaves to Darkness allegiance, you can ally with Disciples of Tzeentch.  Now, DoT allegiance is based off the keyword "Tzeentch" - anything with that keyword can be taken in the allegiance, and gain the benefits of belonging to such a force.  Your sorcerer lord with the Tzeentch keyword, for example, could be taken in a Disciples of Tzeentch force.  However, the sorcerer lord with Tzeentch mark does NOT (as best as we can tell) count as a Disciples of Tzeentch model for the purpose of being an ally, because in the GH17, the model is listed under Slaves to Darkness faction.

So, in short, the Sorcerer Lord with mark of Tzeentch doesn't have an allegiance, but can be taken in either a Slaves to Darkness allegiance force, or a (Disciples of) Tzeentch allegiance force, but belongs to the Slaves of Darkness faction, NOT the Disciples of Tzeentch faction.

FMB

ok, i think i got it. so i would have take a "model" from the DoT to use as an allies to gain the Destiny dice.   

[Killax]

12 minutes ago, PhantomBaz said:

ok, i think i got it. so i would have take a "model" from the DoT to use as an allies to gain the Destiny dice.   

Its simpler. You only gain acces to the Tzeentch Allegiance if at least e.g. 1600 points of your 2000 points are models with the Tzeentch Keyword.

You do not obtain Allegiance abilities with just one model. You have to 'dedicate' your army to the Allegiance.

The logic unfolds with list building. The discussion remains vague without army (list).

[Fireymonkeyboy]

24 minutes ago, PhantomBaz said:

ok, i think i got it. so i would have take a "model" from the DoT to use as an allies to gain the Destiny dice.   

No.  You need to take an army with DoT to gain access to this.  If you do, everything in the army (other than allies, as Killax notes) must have the Tzeentch keyword.  It is not possible to take, say, a Slaves to Darkness allegiance army, using StD allegiance abilities, etc., and then take a DoT model, gaining destiny dice as well.

You could take, for example, Skyfires as an allied unit to your StD force, but they would not bring with them the use of destiny dice.

[PhantomBaz]

6 minutes ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

No.  You need to take an army with DoT to gain access to this.  If you do, everything in the army (other than allies, as Killax notes) must have the Tzeentch keyword.  It is not possible to take, say, a Slaves to Darkness allegiance army, using StD allegiance abilities, etc., and then take a DoT model, gaining destiny dice as well.

You could take, for example, Skyfires as an allied unit to your StD force, but they would not bring with them the use of destiny dice.

ok, I got it, the whole army has to be one or the other, not a mix of DtS and DoT.
 many thanks for your time.  I guess I'll have to try to find another way to boot the Sorcerer casting, and have the killing edge of khorn.

My idea was the use the DD's to pull off spells and use the mark of khorn on the warriors/knights, along with the bloodsecrator to gain the +1A  

[PhantomBaz]

25 minutes ago, Killax said:

Its simpler. You only gain acces to the Tzeentch Allegiance if at least e.g. 1600 points of your 2000 points are models with the Tzeentch Keyword.

You do not obtain Allegiance abilities with just one model. You have to 'dedicate' your army to the Allegiance.

The logic unfolds with list building. The discussion remains vague without army (list).

yeah i see now, it has to be one or the other, not a mix of say StD and DoT. I may have to try and run a DoT army next time, as i keep getting my butt handed to me with Slave to darkness. 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Yah, Bloodsecrator plus DD you're out of luck, since DoT can't take Bloodbound as allies.  Note that you can take  Knights, either in DoT (with a Tzeentch mark) or as allies (with any mark other than Nurgle) as allies.

Personally, I would love to see more mortal / non-skyfire spam Tzeentch lists, and if I wasn't so busy piling up skulls for Lord Khorne, would be putting together one myself right now.  There's an interesting battalion for Mortal Tzeentch from Everchosen that gives +1 rend to anything without it.

FMB

[PhantomBaz]

50 minutes ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

Yah, Bloodsecrator plus DD you're out of luck, since DoT can't take Bloodbound as allies.  Note that you can take  Knights, either in DoT (with a Tzeentch mark) or as allies (with any mark other than Nurgle) as allies.

Personally, I would love to see more mortal / non-skyfire spam Tzeentch lists, and if I wasn't so busy piling up skulls for Lord Khorne, would be putting together one myself right now.  There's an interesting battalion for Mortal Tzeentch from Everchosen that gives +1 rend to anything without it.

FMB

I can take a Bloodsecrator as an alley for Slaves to Darkness, in the GH17 he's under the Blades of Khoren. But i do wanna try something new, so the tzeetch thing maybe a nice chance, although i would lose the Knights as battle-line, which then leave me with  just Warriors or Marauders, or tzeentch battleline(which i have only just thought about..).    

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Yep, you can take bloodbound as allies to Slaves - but then you're using StD allegiance and abilities.  My understanding was you wanted to get access to both Destiny Dice (which meant Tzeentch allegiance) and the Bloodsecrator.  I can't think of a way to do that. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

I'm currently building up my Mortal Tzeentch Fatesworn army. It may not be a cutting edge, super competitive army. But it definitely has things going for it like, great resiliency, consistent Rend across the board and great mobility options like Knights, Chariots and Sayl. Add in the juicy Tzeentch allegiance abilities and you've got an army that sits nicely somewhere in the top middle in terms of power. Perfect for the casual-competitive scene at my club.  

[PhantomBaz]

14 minutes ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

Yep, you can take bloodbound as allies to Slaves - but then you're using StD allegiance and abilities.  My understanding was you wanted to get access to both Destiny Dice (which meant Tzeentch allegiance) and the Bloodsecrator.  I can't think of a way to do that. 

yeah, it was a nice dream, all the Chaos gods shining down upon the poor Slaves, and blessing them with the abilities of all, but alas it was not to be. 

[PhantomBaz]

22 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

I'm currently building up my Mortal Tzeentch Fatesworn army. It may not be a cutting edge, super competitive army. But it definitely has things going for it like, great resiliency, consistent Rend across the board and great mobility options like Knights, Chariots and Sayl. Add in the juicy Tzeentch allegiance abilities and you've got an army that sits nicely somewhere in the top middle in terms of power. Perfect for the casual-competitive scene at my club.  

this is the 2nd time I've heard fatesworn today, what is it? is it a warscroll battalion?

[SpiritofHokuto]

Just now, PhantomBaz said:

this is the 2nd time I've heard fatesworn today, what is it? is it a warscroll battalion?

Yes it's a battalion from the Everchosen battletome. 

[PhantomBaz]

1 minute ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yes it's a battalion from the Everchosen battletome. 

Ah! what would be why i cant find it in the DoT book..