Lets Chat: Darkling Covens

[Twitch of Izalith]

Hey everyone. Great to see some new people picking up the Darkling Covens. Some thoughts from my last few games related to the discussions above.

The Thrall Warhost is never really worth it. The army plays best as a counter attack force so you always want them to come to you. Even against armies with heavy shooting, where you have to attack, extra bodies are more valuable than 1st turn priority. The ability is never that useful either - having 2 units both pile in and attack is more useful than one unit piling in twice. It is useful against super resilient units like vulkites so if you have a lot of that stuff in you local scene its worth thinking about. Personally - more bodies is always better.

Are bleakswords better than dreadspears? No they are about the same. I mostly use spears but that's because I have more of the models. Also they suit what I do with them - I use them to hold objectives so the bonus is always in play. 

SoBD - Do use her in combat but pick your targets. Use her to threaten flanks, take out chaff and weaker units. she is great for pouncing on 5 man cav units. The dragon does all the work but at least the unit can achieve something. Sustained by Misery has been more useful than -1 to hit in my games. I have been alternating between the two traits. never waste Mystic Shield on her. If you need it you already got to close to the wrong enemy. She is terrible to be honest but such a cool model 

Executioners are still MVP's of the army but that could change as we move into Age of Death & Nurgle - so many ways to get -1 to hit. Possible new Dark Elves in April/May but its likely to be Daughters of Khaine.

I would ally doomfire warlocks for the magic heavy build. The D6 mortal wound Doombolt is useful enough - even when it drops to D3. 

My list has pretty much stayed the same though. Double Dragon and lots of executioners! Partly because it works ok against other casual builds partly just because I love those dragons! Thinking of doing a conversion with the Forgeworld Carmine Dragon also.

[Kaleun]

1 hour ago, Redbaron said:

It's also the case (I think, and may be wrong about this) but the Dreadlord is a single base so you get full 'impact' if he moves into contact. The drake spawn knights unit has ten riders, and the comparison assumes that all of them will pile in and contact an enemy. It might be that practically achieving this is far harder, gets split between enemy units, can't all get in range, etc. 

Good Point! When I play 10 Drakespawn Knights I use a certain way of piling in/moving. The base width of the cav. units is smaller then 1". That results a second row of models to bring their attacks in.

I have prepared a picture for you to show that issue:

The first row of (4) models is set up crosswise and a second row of (6) models can attack. Thats the reason why I calculated 10 models fighting.

 

 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

2 hours ago, Redbaron said:

It's also the case (I think, and may be wrong about this) but the Dreadlord is a single base so you get full 'impact' if he moves into contact. The drake spawn knights unit has ten riders, and the comparison assumes that all of them will pile in and contact an enemy. It might be that practically achieving this is far harder, gets split between enemy units, can't all get in range, etc. 

Yeaah, in a horde setup like Darkling Covens, I'm not sure how useful Drakespawn Cav would be in comparison (especially since our units are 6" move, a unit can run + charge, and an artifact for +3" movement).

[Twitch of Izalith]

The Drakespawn are ok in an anvilguard army - The allegiance ability keeps them charging - Its really good if you get the double turn. I still use them in 5's though, they can take 10 wounds pretty easily and then you can easily lose the rest to Battleshock. They are slightly over-costed at 160 imo. if you compare them to chaos knights or skull crushers at the same cost or Dragon Blades and Goregruntas at 140.

The dreadlord goes in most of my lists and works together with the sorceress (on BD). I tag units of 30+ with them at each end to mess with their ability to pile too many people into combat. The main problem is keeping them out of range of too much shooting and magic. The combination of double bite attacks and breath weapons can mess up big units pretty effectively. I'm not sure its 620 points worth of effectiveness but it does the job.

Most of you guys seem to be running a lot more xbows, swords and spears than I am? I find them too expensive to use as chaff and not solid enough for horde battleline. What kind of lists are your main opponents running? Mine are Sylvaneth, Stormcast, Khorne and Fyreslayers which are all lists I can compete with if I play well though the Fyreslayers are tough. I think KO or Changehost would just massacre me! Nurgle looks like a bad match too though I have only had the book for a day and no games yet. I definately can't fight them with my current list - its too reliant on the exploding 6's of the executioners

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

13 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

The Drakespawn are ok in an anvilguard army - The allegiance ability keeps them charging - Its really good if you get the double turn. I still use them in 5's though, they can take 10 wounds pretty easily and then you can easily lose the rest to Battleshock. They are slightly over-costed at 160 imo. if you compare them to chaos knights or skull crushers at the same cost or Dragon Blades and Goregruntas at 140.

The dreadlord goes in most of my lists and works together with the sorceress (on BD). I tag units of 30+ with them at each end to mess with their ability to pile too many people into combat. The main problem is keeping them out of range of too much shooting and magic. The combination of double bite attacks and breath weapons can mess up big units pretty effectively. I'm not sure its 620 points worth of effectiveness but it does the job.

Most of you guys seem to be running a lot more xbows, swords and spears than I am? I find them too expensive to use as chaff and not solid enough for horde battleline. What kind of lists are your main opponents running? Mine are Sylvaneth, Stormcast, Khorne and Fyreslayers which are all lists I can compete with if I play well though the Fyreslayers are tough. I think KO or Changehost would just massacre me! Nurgle looks like a bad match too though I have only had the book for a day and no games yet. I definately can't fight them with my current list - its too reliant on the exploding 6's of the executioners

What's wrong with 40 swords/spears for 360pts?  That's fairly well-costed, especially for rerolling 1s and 2s even with Mystic Shield on.

[Kaleun]

On 4.9.2017 at 9:06 PM, Kaleun said:

lets talk about the Dreadspears, Bleakswords and the Darkshards.

the table above shows the damage caused in ranged/close combat against certain enemy armor values. Every Unit consisting of ten Models cost 100 Points. The Dreadspears suffered a point increase from 80 to 100 what makes them worse compared to Bleakswords.  However the Spears might have a advantage in big numbers because of their 2" spear range. From my point of few I would use Bleakswords as Chaff units backed up by Darkshards.

I wouldnt say that BG and Executioners are better. They have a different purpose on the battlefield and also an elite status compared to the cheap line infantry. I for myself see the executioners as a flanking unit and do not even try to build them as a center combat regiment. However this is where Black Guard comes in. The 2" range favors large units und they bring very much needed rend to your Darkling Coven army. If you manage to buff your guard's to hit roll they hit on 2+ rerolling ones and wound on a 3+.

I have to add: I would no recommend to ally an War Hydra in. The Hydra is weak damage wise. It is more meant for staying power, holding one flank.

 

@Twitch of Izalith

Bleakswords are statistically better than Dreadspears. You find it in the table above (from page 2 of this thread). Dreadspears are in my opinion better in great numbers. Black_Fortress_Immortal mentioned the 40 for 360 points. I also see that as a good deal, but I have problems to squeeze them into a 2000 point List without hurting other vital parts of the list. Dreadspears were better when they cost 80 points in the last edition. That 100 points for 10 Bleakswords are well paid for a chaff unit that holds that pesky teleporting Stormcast Retributors away from your main army. Even if it is only one round of combat where you are able to position your Executioners.

Second the Darkshards: Awesome unit now. We like that unit of 30 because of their tremendous amount of shots. However they are best used against low-save-enemies. They cause 15 wounds before saves. With the abilities of the Darkling Covens you might reach the enemy in the first turn.

 

I have mixed feelings about your statement of the battalion. It is right that we play your loved Darkling Covens as a counter charge army, but the power to control the first turn should not be underestimated. The 180 points of the Thrall warhost let you have another close combat phase for one unit like you had one more. That wont pay of for 10 Executioners because you calculate right and say why not taking another 10 right away?!

Cant argue with that, but give the second combat phase to your SoBD or that unit of 30 Black Guard and the Thrall Warhost has payed for itself in one turn.

 

The Dreadlord o. BD. is great, but it kinda hurts loosing that great Command Ability for himself and the artefacts you could give him. As seen above against certain enemy units I would recommend 10 Drakespawn Knights instead.

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

The artefact works only in one round. After that the Darkling Covens are a lot slower. The dragon is good but you find 50% more damage (before save) while charging in the Drakespawn Knights (they have 10" movement). They favour an aggressive style of play of the Darkling army.

Guys soon I will have a game against my archenemy "Stormcast Eternals"!!!

I am already thinking which List works best against them. (There we take the dragon of course!)

 

 

[Kaleun]

just to add:  What happens if 10 Dreadspears stand still and have 20+ models (mark that this bonus is now far easier to get with that DC Allegiance)

they are in every way worse than the Bleakswords with their 4,99 Damage before save. Also the Bleakswords DONT have to stand still to get their bonus. Also they have the exploding 6s. That means even more attacks if you can make them reroll 1s. If you give them a +1 to hit they turn into  mincemeats.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

@Twitch of Izalith

Bleakswords are statistically better than Dreadspears. You find it in the table above (from page 2 of this thread). Dreadspears are in my opinion better in great numbers. Black_Fortress_Immortal mentioned the 40 for 360 points. I also see that as a good deal, but I have problems to squeeze them into a 2000 point List without hurting other vital parts of the list. Dreadspears were better when they cost 80 points in the last edition. That 100 points for 10 Bleakswords are well paid for a chaff unit that holds that pesky teleporting Stormcast Retributors away from your main army. Even if it is only one round of combat where you are able to position your Executioners.

Second the Darkshards: Awesome unit now. We like that unit of 30 because of their tremendous amount of shots. However they are best used against low-save-enemies. They cause 15 wounds before saves. With the abilities of the Darkling Covens you might reach the enemy in the first turn.

 

I have mixed feelings about your statement of the battalion. It is right that we play your loved Darkling Covens as a counter charge army, but the power to control the first turn should not be underestimated. The 180 points of the Thrall warhost let you have another close combat phase for one unit like you had one more. That wont pay of for 10 Executioners because you calculate right and say why not taking another 10 right away?!

Cant argue with that, but give the second combat phase to your SoBD or that unit of 30 Black Guard and the Thrall Warhost has payed for itself in one turn.

 

The Dreadlord o. BD. is great, but it kinda hurts loosing that great Command Ability for himself and the artefacts you could give him. As seen above against certain enemy units I would recommend 10 Drakespawn Knights instead.

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

The artefact works only in one round. After that the Darkling Covens are a lot slower. The dragon is good but you find 50% more damage (before save) while charging in the Drakespawn Knights (they have 10" movement). They favour an aggressive style of play of the Darkling army.

Guys soon I will have a game against my archenemy "Stormcast Eternals"!!!

I am already thinking which List works best against them. (There we take the dragon of course!)

 

 

There are a few reasons why you wouldn't want to just take another 10 executioners than the Thrall Warhost:

1. You can have a 10-20 man with everyone in range for their attacks, and adding another 10 may impair this

2. You can only pile in and attack with 1 unit before the enemy does.  If you have 2 x 10 executioners in combat, you run the risk of losing the second 10-man that you just paid for.

3. Destroying an enemy unit in the Hero Phase can free you up for another move + charge + pile-in later in that turn.

4. The enemy does NOT get to strike back in the hero phase.  Just taking 10 more Executioners will put them in harm's way in the combat phase.

5. You can choose the Black Dragon to attack in the phase with herself as the unit selected.  This may be better than Executioners, depending on what is on the board.

Can try a list like this:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift 
- Artefact: Incorporeal Retainer 
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos 
Sorceress (80)
20 x Black Guard (320)
20 x Executioners (360)
20 x Darkshards (200)
40 x Bleakswords (360)
Thrall Warhost (180)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124

Don't worry about the artifacts, haha.  The strategy is to either go first, or let the enemy go first, either pushing yourself up with the balewind (making liberal use of the Sacrifice ability on the 40-man unit), or to let the enemy go first.   Have the Sorceress with the Decanter use it to slingshot yourself up the field with the bleakswords and possibly tie something up in combat.  Get your Mystic Shield on them, and hit a scary unit with Word of Pain from the Balewinded Sorceress.  You don't need a ton of heroes/behemoths in Matched Play, just have to dominate one for Duality of Death, and deny the opponent.  With the Balewind Vortex pushing your Bleakswords forward and the Decanter going off, you can opt to go first and play area denial with a blob of buffed up swordmen.

There's a ~16% chance of failure when only using the +2 to cast Sacrifice on the Sorceress on Balewind, so you COULD make her the General, give her the +1 to cast Command Trait, and Shadowshroud Artifact.  With that setup, it would be: General Sacrifices a model, gets +2 to cast, casts Balewind Vortex with her +3 to cast (going off on a 4+), hit a scary unit with Word of Pain, your Bleakswords are pushed up, the Dragon Sorceress throws a Mystic Shield on them, other Sorceress pops her Decanter for the huge boost in mobility.  Your Bleaksword tarpit will get about 5"(Balewind push) + 6" (move) + 3" (decanter) + D6" (run) + 2d6" charge (reroll single dice).  On AVERAGE with a 3" run, you can get a 7" charge, which is pretty statistical with a single reroll of a dice.  This screws up stupid battalions like Murderhost where you can't let them hit you first.

[Kaleun]

I totally agree with the first points and want to add that the Return of Investment of the Thrall Warhost is even faster achieved when you put the herophase-combat phase on your most expensive unit (30 Black Guard or the Dragon).

I would change that list a tiny bit:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany
Death Hag (60)
- Deathsword

Battleline
30 x Black Guard (430)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
10 x Executioners (180)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
40 x Dreadspears (360)
20 x Darkshards (200)
10 x Darkshards (100)

Battalions
Thrall Warhost (180)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 60 / 400
Wounds: 134

...With 40 it would be the only case where I choose the Dreadspeers over the Bleakswords. You can put them in 3 Lines of 13 (sacrifice one for the Vortex) and every Elve can hit.
Maybe I calculate later what is really better for the points. Think you can get more from additional 10 Darkshards than the Sorceress. Personally I am not really fond of that D3 Mortal wounds of the Arcane Bolt. The main reason is that you have to cast with 18" in your hero Phase and you cant hit the enemy right away except with the Vortex.

What do you think. What can we get for 70 spare points? I have put our priest in. Not sure what she can provide except advantages in a some missions.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, Kaleun said:

I totally agree with the first points and want to add that the Return of Investment of the Thrall Warhost is even faster achieved when you put the herophase-combat phase on your most expensive unit (30 Black Guard or the Dragon).

I would change that list a tiny bit:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens

Leaders
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany
Death Hag (60)
- Deathsword

Battleline
30 x Black Guard (430)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
10 x Executioners (180)
- Darkling Covens Battleline
40 x Dreadspears (360)
20 x Darkshards (200)
10 x Darkshards (100)

Battalions
Thrall Warhost (180)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 60 / 400
Wounds: 134

...With 40 it would be the only case where I choose the Dreadspeers over the Bleakswords. You can put them in 3 Lines of 13 (sacrifice one for the Vortex) and every Elve can hit.
Maybe I calculate later what is really better for the points. Think you can get more from additional 10 Darkshards than the Sorceress. Personally I am not really fond of that D3 Mortal wounds of the Arcane Bolt. The main reason is that you have to cast with 18" in your hero Phase and you cant hit the enemy right away except with the Vortex.

What do you think. What can we get for 70 spare points? I have put our priest in. Not sure what she can provide except advantages in a some missions.

Not much for 70 spare points tbh.  I would rather cast Word of Pain with that first turn on a balewind with the +2 to cast from the sacrifice still on the sorceress.  With a +3 to cast you have > 90% chance of it going off on something 32" away.  The -1 to their hit rolls is massive debuff - charge your Sorceress on Dragon in their and with Impossibly Swift, they're -2 to hit her... beastly.  I'm a huge fan of 3 sorceress because we're FRAIL, and that +1 to save is vital, ranged mortal wounds with boosted casting rolls to reduce unbinding is great, and Word of Pain NEEDS to be up on their heavy hitter.  The SoBD can potentially tank a flank and eat up a horde with the proper setup.

[Redbaron]

This thread has been great to learn a bit about the tactics people prefer. I am interested in the notion of a counter-attack force. I presume that the notion with the bulk of your models is to dash forward on the first turn (with the decanter of egos) and then use dreadspears to form a defensive wall, with darkshards in support (perhaps set back from the spear-line, firing through gaps between units?) I assume the notion is to hold your good units like black guard or executioners back and use them either on any units that break through your line, or use them on a flank while your spears and crossbows pin the enemy line? 

I'm still at the army-building stage right now, so this is all theoretical I admit. Anybody with practical experience that can add their thoughts? ?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

19 minutes ago, Redbaron said:

This thread has been great to learn a bit about the tactics people prefer. I am interested in the notion of a counter-attack force. I presume that the notion with the bulk of your models is to dash forward on the first turn (with the decanter of egos) and then use dreadspears to form a defensive wall, with darkshards in support (perhaps set back from the spear-line, firing through gaps between units?) I assume the notion is to hold your good units like black guard or executioners back and use them either on any units that break through your line, or use them on a flank while your spears and crossbows pin the enemy line? 

I'm still at the army-building stage right now, so this is all theoretical I admit. Anybody with practical experience that can add their thoughts? ?

It depends whether you want to be offensive or defensive, which I think Darkling Covens can perform.  If the enemy army is an alpha-striker, you should probably go first and try to get your dragon into their spearhead, and make sure you debuff them.  However, a lot of armies you'll want to let them go first, and you react and dash up the field to engage them and attempt to get a double turn.  I've actually gotten lucky and had 1st turn hero-phase Thrall Warhost charge go off to the mid-field.  And yes, you want your Executioners and Blackguards to hit but not get hit - hence why I like the Thrall Warhost Battalion, which allows a hero phase charge to pile in and attack WITHOUT enemy counterattack.

[Kaleun]

I am actually working on a strategy vs. an alphastriking-teleporting Stormcast army. We have a lot of Chaff to zone/shield important units, but a Sorceress on Vortex standing alone is a problem (easy fodder for teleporting ranged units). Especially if the Darkling Covens are made to go first.

Also I guess that Fulminators or a Stardrake pose a threat. Didnt fight in yet though! What would you say?

I swaped 10 Shards and the Hag for DKnights:

Allegiance: Darkling Covens
Sorceress On Black Dragon (300)
- General
- Darkling Sword
- Trait: Impossibly Swift
- Artefact: Decanter of Egos
Sorceress (80)
- Artefact: Anklet of Epiphany
30 x Black Guard (430)
10 x Executioners (180)
10 x Darkshards (100)
10 x Darkshards (100)
40 x Dreadspears (360)
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Allies
Thrall Warhost (180)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 129

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Kaleun thanks for the work on the stats - i'm not arguing they are not statistically better - just that my experience in game is that they don't work out much different in terms of what they achieve.  As I said I have way more models with spears so my info may be biased in that respect but I have never finished a game thinking "If only I had more swords instead of spears"

Darkshards - If I shoot 30 at 30 Vulkites with a battlesmith that get 4+ rerolling, then 4+ ward I might get lucky and kill 2. If I shoot them at 30 plaguebearers I probably don't  kill any of them, same story with 15 liberators with shields in range of a castellan or staunch defender - I'm lucky to do a wound. That's the kind of stuff I'm playing against so that's probably why I don't think much of darkshards.

My list regularly does well against Stormcast though - unless they go heavy judicators and raptors - I would be very worried about my chances against an Aetherstrike force.. But the deep-strike armies are not a bad match up at all. Stardrake is not a problem if you have high mortal wound output - he will kill a lot of your stuff but you can deal with him. In your list above you only have 10 executioners and a couple of spells that stand any chance of doing any damage. Same with fulminators. catch them on your spears - which they will kill all of - and then wipe them out with executioners. 10 will take out 2 dracothian guard fairly reliably. 

Alot of the time almost the whole stormcast army has 3+ re-rolling 1's or 2+ re-rolling 1's so if I knew I was playing them and could taylor my list I would probably take a full 60 executioners!

On 20/01/2018 at 12:14 PM, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

There are a few reasons why you wouldn't want to just take another 10 executioners than the Thrall Warhost:

I don't disagree with any of the points you have made - just that my experience has been that circumstances where I wanted another unit or a bigger unit, or was missing a second sorceress or something have been more frequent than the ones where I wanted to pile in twice. 

Its great against Fyreslayers - I will always take it if I know I'm playing them. 

I think my summary for the batallion would be that it can be worth the points but a new player should not feel like they have to fit it in to a list all the time. There are lists that work well without it.

 

[Twitch of Izalith]

On 20/01/2018 at 10:39 PM, Redbaron said:

I assume the notion is to hold your good units like black guard or executioners back and use them either on any units that break through your line, or use them on a flank while your spears and crossbows pin the enemy line? 

Yes, pretty much. Against an aggressive army I make a screen of spears with executioners behind them. The spears take the charges and the executioners then pile in and do damage or charge in the next turn.  Its more complicated than that of course because your opponents army and the battleplan make a huge difference but thats the basic idea.

Against a ranged army,  or in some scenarios, you will have no choice but to push forward, but you keep the same formation going as much as you can. Don't let your elites get charged!

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

12 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Kaleun thanks for the work on the stats - i'm not arguing they are not statistically better - just that my experience in game is that they don't work out much different in terms of what they achieve.  As I said I have way more models with spears so my info may be biased in that respect but I have never finished a game thinking "If only I had more swords instead of spears"

Darkshards - If I shoot 30 at 30 Vulkites with a battlesmith that get 4+ rerolling, then 4+ ward I might get lucky and kill 2. If I shoot them at 30 plaguebearers I probably don't  kill any of them, same story with 15 liberators with shields in range of a castellan or staunch defender - I'm lucky to do a wound. That's the kind of stuff I'm playing against so that's probably why I don't think much of darkshards.

My list regularly does well against Stormcast though - unless they go heavy judicators and raptors - I would be very worried about my chances against an Aetherstrike force.. But the deep-strike armies are not a bad match up at all. Stardrake is not a problem if you have high mortal wound output - he will kill a lot of your stuff but you can deal with him. In your list above you only have 10 executioners and a couple of spells that stand any chance of doing any damage. Same with fulminators. catch them on your spears - which they will kill all of - and then wipe them out with executioners. 10 will take out 2 dracothian guard fairly reliably. 

Alot of the time almost the whole stormcast army has 3+ re-rolling 1's or 2+ re-rolling 1's so if I knew I was playing them and could taylor my list I would probably take a full 60 executioners!

I don't disagree with any of the points you have made - just that my experience has been that circumstances where I wanted another unit or a bigger unit, or was missing a second sorceress or something have been more frequent than the ones where I wanted to pile in twice. 

Its great against Fyreslayers - I will always take it if I know I'm playing them. 

I think my summary for the batallion would be that it can be worth the points but a new player should not feel like they have to fit it in to a list all the time. There are lists that work well without it.

 

True, true.  I have only experimented with taking 20 Darkshards that stay near the Bleakswords, since 20 is enough to put a volume of shots into a squishy, or they are fodder for sacrifices and/or for objectives (they're rather sticky with the 5+ reroll 1s and 2s).  Against high armor saves, the Executioners will definitely be worth it, and the auto-wounds from the 6s for Executioners will always be great.  I always love being able to choose who goes first, so I can plan my deployment first depending on the scenario and who I'm facing, and then let them move up, or we try to strike 1st turn.

[Twitch of Izalith]

On 20/01/2018 at 4:34 AM, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

What's wrong with 40 swords/spears for 360pts?  That's fairly well-costed, especially for rerolling 1s and 2s even with Mystic Shield on.

Thought I would do a separate post to chat about this one.  I'm going to discuss the negative aspects of these units but that doesn't mean I don't like them or that I think that they are "bad" units - This is just why I think they are overcosted. I will include Darkshards also.

The first dificulty I have with it is that the massive regiment discount works in opposition to the allegiance ability. If you take the benefit of a max size regiment you are limiting your opportunity to take advantage of the ability which encourages Multiple Small Units (MSU) working together. 

Second - they are not good at anything! 

Bleakswords and dreadspears are OK in combat but not good enough to  use as an attack force - and why would you when you have such good elites?

All 3 units have OK defense. 5+ re-rollong 1's or 1's and 2's will save a few models as long as the enemy doesn't have rend but the second its 6+ the re-rolls don't matter so much. You have one Mystic shield attempt per turn and if you use it on your bleakswords you are playing the game wrong! 

So if you accept these guys are going to die and put them out front as a screen - you are throwing away a lot of points because they are only slightly more survivable than real chaff - like skinks or zombies or marauders - which are 60 points instead of 100 for min unit size.

They are not great at grabbing objectives either - they are quite fast, 6" is a good movement stat BUT its not 12" or 14" which is what I would want to fill that role.

Darkshards are our shooting unit and they are, again, not very good at it. 16" range is poor when you ideally want your shooting at the back of the table holding objectives and its so easy for an opponent to keep important targets out of reach. And then of course they have rend "-"

Third and final - they have no synergies with the rest of the army. There are no abilities or characters that buff them into something really effective.

None of this stops me loving the army  - and all the Dark Elf factions - I just like to be realistic about how it will perform compared others if I wanted to try and build a truly competitive list from it. 

 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

22 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Thought I would do a separate post to chat about this one.  I'm going to discuss the negative aspects of these units but that doesn't mean I don't like them or that I think that they are "bad" units - This is just why I think they are overcosted. I will include Darkshards also.

The first dificulty I have with it is that the massive regiment discount works in opposition to the allegiance ability. If you take the benefit of a max size regiment you are limiting your opportunity to take advantage of the ability which encourages Multiple Small Units (MSU) working together. 

Second - they are not good at anything! 

Bleakswords and dreadspears are OK in combat but not good enough to  use as an attack force - and why would you when you have such good elites?

All 3 units have OK defense. 5+ re-rollong 1's or 1's and 2's will save a few models as long as the enemy doesn't have rend but the second its 6+ the re-rolls don't matter so much. You have one Mystic shield attempt per turn and if you use it on your bleakswords you are playing the game wrong! 

So if you accept these guys are going to die and put them out front as a screen - you are throwing away a lot of points because they are only slightly more survivable than real chaff - like skinks or zombies or marauders - which are 60 points instead of 100 for min unit size.

They are not great at grabbing objectives either - they are quite fast, 6" is a good movement stat BUT its not 12" or 14" which is what I would want to fill that role.

Darkshards are our shooting unit and they are, again, not very good at it. 16" range is poor when you ideally want your shooting at the back of the table holding objectives and its so easy for an opponent to keep important targets out of reach. And then of course they have rend "-"

Third and final - they have no synergies with the rest of the army. There are no abilities or characters that buff them into something really effective.

None of this stops me loving the army  - and all the Dark Elf factions - I just like to be realistic about how it will perform compared others if I wanted to try and build a truly competitive list from it. 

 

Our Allegiance Ability ENCOURAGES a large unit, supplemented by smaller units to attain the extra bonus.  Darkshards are best in small units near the 40-man so that the 10-man gets boosted, and they can split off, since their range is short and they NEED to move.  It's much easier to get 3 x 10 Darkshards in shooting range of the enemy than 1 x 30...

6" is fast for a battleline unit, especially when they can run + charge with a command ability, and the use of decanter for +3" for a 9" movement + run, meaning they can get in range.  

Your math is just plain wrong if you think that 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s is only "slightly more survivable" than skinks.  With Mystic Shield, 40 wounds 4+ rerolling 1s and 2s is great for 360pts is great.  Also, your long line of them trigger multiple extra attacks with the 5+ hit, meaning that you're going to gain many extra attacks.  

I think you're just playing them wrong if you think they're that bad.  Of course against heavily armored units, the 40 man of Bleakswords isn't going to tear them up, but that's what you need a Dragon and Executioners/Black Guards, and offensive spellcasting for.  Sacrifice your units liberally to make sure that their chances of unbinding is reduced.  Doing 1 mortal wound on the unit to make immune to Battleshock is what you need to do as well.

You win the game by capturing objectives, and a supported 40-man of Bleakswords with Mystic Shield is going to fall to mortal wounds, which can be mitigated many times by an intercepting dragon, or Word of Pain.  If the Retributors are deepstriking and hitting your shieldlings, then that's what it's for... and they're ignoring your Black Guard and Executioners.  You should split your 10 mans of Darkshards up and spread out your Bleakswords to reduce their chance at being able to deepstrike close to your elites.  Shooting and Mortal Wounds on key units are your counters to the army, and there may not be tons of ways around this.

[heromaster]

Ive been considering returning to my true love of dark elves! Could anyone tell me where to start with the most competitive 1000 point list possible in aos? My play group is highly competitive with tzeentch mortal wounds, kurnoth hunters and maggotkin been my main opponent's. I know darkling coven are no where near top tier but i want to play an army i love using the best possible list so i don't get tabled every game!

Thanks guys!!!

[Kaleun]

1 hour ago, heromaster said:

Ive been considering returning to my true love of dark elves! Could anyone tell me where to start with the most competitive 1000 point list possible in aos? My play group is highly competitive with tzeentch mortal wounds, kurnoth hunters and maggotkin been my main opponent's. I know darkling coven are no where near top tier but i want to play an army i love using the best possible list so i don't get tabled every game!

Thanks guys!!!

Hello heromaster,
try to write a list by yourself. You find a lot of information in this thread and this forum. We can discuss together, but we wont write the list for you. Check out the Warscrollbuilder by Warhammer Community.

@Twitch of Izalith

I like your way of thinking! The units itself are not easy to compare. You are right there are cheaper units who can hold the enemy from your heels, but these forces you to take the order allegiance and you wont field a battalion. However this MIGHT also be a way of going more competitive!! I was very sucessful with a combination of 30 Darkshards and 3 Reaper Bolt Throwers beside a Hurricanum. Also the Quicksilver Potion of order is my favourite Artefact on a Dreadlord on Black Dragon. You can do awesome lists with the Order allegiance if you want to.

As Fortress said, our Bleakswords/Spears or Shards arent bad either. You are stuck with them if you want to have the Darkling Coven Allegiance. Actually I just love the looks of them and I wouldnt swap my Shards for some skinks even if it would make a greater difference. Actually I grew really fond of maxing the units out. With that 30 Black Guard and 40 Spears/Swords you get nigh 100 points more than the enemy which is a good thing for us.

Here you have the comparison of the Black Guard vs. the Executioners:

underlined is the damage sum. The first line of the executioners is just the incoming Mortal wounds. You get around 2-4 wounds more from the Executioners (depending on the enemies save), BUT remember that the Black Guard have a 2" reach and can therefore bring far more attacks in. Think about what a Hurricanum does to a unit of Executioners or the Black Guard. It is pure awesomeness.

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

Compared to all that teleporting stuff around it is hard to keep up, but we arent slow indeed. I must say that 40 man strong Dreadspear unit becomes more and more appealing! They are a perfect tarpit against a Stardrake. Honestly if I have engaged that big enemy monster with that 40 Spears I would consider to cast mystic shield on them to help them stand their ground. The DCoven general nearby and they are tough to shift.

 

[heromaster]

Well i had a crack at 1000 points and came up with

Sobd

Sorceress 

10 bleakswords

10 bleakswords

10 darkshards

20 blackguard

 

Sobd would take one flank while the blackguard either took the other or sat on a home objective. The bleakswords would be frontline while the darkshards sat behind with the sorceress peppering shots and casting mystic shield on the bleakswords

[Redbaron]

@heromaster let us know how you do with the list.  I'm still wading my way through the painting mountain, so it'll be a while before I roll a dice in anger.  :-) 

I've heard some talk about elves getting some new releases in the coming year - is that just wild & optimistic talk, or is it actually based on something?  (and if so, what?)  I haven't been on the forum that long, so I may not know my way around it all quite yet.  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

5 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Hello heromaster,
try to write a list by yourself. You find a lot of information in this thread and this forum. We can discuss together, but we wont write the list for you. Check out the Warscrollbuilder by Warhammer Community.

@Twitch of Izalith

I like your way of thinking! The units itself are not easy to compare. You are right there are cheaper units who can hold the enemy from your heels, but these forces you to take the order allegiance and you wont field a battalion. However this MIGHT also be a way of going more competitive!! I was very sucessful with a combination of 30 Darkshards and 3 Reaper Bolt Throwers beside a Hurricanum. Also the Quicksilver Potion of order is my favourite Artefact on a Dreadlord on Black Dragon. You can do awesome lists with the Order allegiance if you want to.

As Fortress said, our Bleakswords/Spears or Shards arent bad either. You are stuck with them if you want to have the Darkling Coven Allegiance. Actually I just love the looks of them and I wouldnt swap my Shards for some skinks even if it would make a greater difference. Actually I grew really fond of maxing the units out. With that 30 Black Guard and 40 Spears/Swords you get nigh 100 points more than the enemy which is a good thing for us.

Here you have the comparison of the Black Guard vs. the Executioners:

underlined is the damage sum. The first line of the executioners is just the incoming Mortal wounds. You get around 2-4 wounds more from the Executioners (depending on the enemies save), BUT remember that the Black Guard have a 2" reach and can therefore bring far more attacks in. Think about what a Hurricanum does to a unit of Executioners or the Black Guard. It is pure awesomeness.

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

Compared to all that teleporting stuff around it is hard to keep up, but we arent slow indeed. I must say that 40 man strong Dreadspear unit becomes more and more appealing! They are a perfect tarpit against a Stardrake. Honestly if I have engaged that big enemy monster with that 40 Spears I would consider to cast mystic shield on them to help them stand their ground. The DCoven general nearby and they are tough to shift.

 

Yup, I've tanked a Ghoul King on Zombie Dragon and 9 Crypt Flayers with the Deathwatch battalion and held the line until the Zombie Dragon and some Flayers were killed.  Support from Word of Pain, Executioners, Dragon bites and Bladewind, really laid some hurt down.  Negating battleshock for 1 mortal wound is... amazing.

[Twitch of Izalith]

13 hours ago, Redbaron said:

@heromaster let us know how you do with the list.  I'm still wading my way through the painting mountain, so it'll be a while before I roll a dice in anger.  :-) 

I've heard some talk about elves getting some new releases in the coming year - is that just wild & optimistic talk, or is it actually based on something?  (and if so, what?)  I haven't been on the forum that long, so I may not know my way around it all quite yet.  

The rumour is 2 elf factions in april /may - one is reportedly all female. Its validity is based on the fact that all the other predictions for releases made at the same time by this person have been accurate. It is still a rumour though.

This is also potentially supported by "the visitor" malign portents video - which may or may not be about Morathi. The biggest teaser for this is actually the GW community email announcing the video. Again both are ambiguous - it could be anything!

I have also heard some very subtle comments from people who know whats coming out in the next few months that make me think a Daughters of Khaine or revamped DoK release is highly likely this year. Or I'm reading too much into it because I really want that to happen!

Its all good fun. plenty to keep us going while we are waiting

[Twitch of Izalith]

18 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Your math is just plain wrong if you think that 5+ rerolling 1s and 2s is only "slightly more survivable" than skinks

I don't mean to sound argumentative but I'm basing what i'm saying on playing games against competitive people with competitive lists, not doing math.

If 30 bloodletters doing mortal wounds on a 3+ with +1 attack from a bloodsecrator charge into my unit of 30 bleakswords most of them will die. If the same thing charges into 30 skinks most of them will also die. Their survivability is the same.  but I only lose 180 secondary VP's if 30 skinks get wiped and I lose 300 if 30 Bleakswords get wiped. AND if I get the chance to take priority in the combat  skinks can run away and not give anything up - but they still did their job and stopped the charge before it got to an important unit.

I don't think they are bad at all but there is a long list of better tar-pit units and a long list of better chaff units which is why I don't think they are very good either. They are not experts at anything - just average at everything.

I love running them in less punchy games  - but if you throw them in the shark tank they just don't hold up.