Khorgus khul

[Arkiham]

His rules state he can pile in 8" and attack every hero phase.

So, he can move 8" towards nearest enemy every hero phase? 

[Jharen]

A few grabs from the rules and FAQ that raise questions for me concerning this ability.  I can see different ways to interpret it I guess because everything means many different things in many different situations.

From the 4-page Rules:

"When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model." <--What 'piling in' is.

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

"An attack is split into two steps: First the unit piles in, and then you make attacks with the models in the unit." <---The Ability means this type of 'attack' action?  The combination of a pile in and attack sequence.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?

A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise. <---It does state "in the combat phase", so maybe it doesn't apply when it's in the hero phase?

[Arkiham]

3 minutes ago, Jharen said:

A few grabs from the rules and FAQ that raise questions for me concerning this ability.  I can see different ways to interpret it I guess because everything means many different things in many different situations.

From the 4-page Rules:

"When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model." <--What 'piling in' is.

"Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

"An attack is split into two steps: First the unit piles in, and then you make attacks with the models in the unit." <---The Ability means this type of 'attack' action?  The combination of a pile in and attack sequence.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?

A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise. <---It does state "in the combat phase", so maybe it doesn't apply when it's in the hero phase?

The elf Prince is different. It's a poor faq question tbf as it's quite clear cut and the faq makes it seem different to the actual rule

 

[Jharen]

If an ability like this allows us to pile-in without the normal constraints due to it not stating "as if it were the combat phase", does the Murder Host ability to move in the hero phase then allow it to move within 3" of an enemy model?  I was under the impression it could not.  Different ability I know, but it seemed relevant to this understanding.

As to the Griffon's ability, I was aware that the FAQ does not use the best example because that ability does in fact "specifically state otherwise."  Though that FAQ question would still apply to abilities like it such as the Chaos Lord on Manticore.  That's where the intent of my question comes from I suppose.

[Arkiham]

7 minutes ago, Jharen said:

If an ability like this allows us to pile-in without the normal constraints due to it not stating "as if it were the combat phase", does the Murder Host ability to move in the hero phase then allow it to move within 3" of an enemy model?  I was under the impression it could not.  Different ability I know, but it seemed relevant to this understanding.

As to the Griffon's ability, I was aware that the FAQ does not use the best example because that ability does in fact "specifically state otherwise."  Though that FAQ question would still apply to abilities like it such as the Chaos Lord on Manticore.  That's where the intent of my question comes from I suppose.

Erm, maybe.... I'll have a proper look after work unless someone else does before I reply

[Jaehaerys]

26 minutes ago, Jharen said:

If an ability like this allows us to pile-in without the normal constraints due to it not stating "as if it were the combat phase", does the Murder Host ability to move in the hero phase then allow it to move within 3" of an enemy model?  I was under the impression it could not.  Different ability I know, but it seemed relevant to this understanding.

As to the Griffon's ability, I was aware that the FAQ does not use the best example because that ability does in fact "specifically state otherwise."  Though that FAQ question would still apply to abilities like it such as the Chaos Lord on Manticore.  That's where the intent of my question comes from I suppose.

Murderhost could I would assume. Aetherwings have a movement in charge phase that doesn't say "as if were movement phase" and they have always been played that they can move within 3" in games I have played in.

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

His rules state he can pile in 8" and attack every hero phase.

So, he can move 8" towards nearest enemy every hero phase? 

Yes, if there are enemies 3" near him who allow him to pile in in the first place. 

[Arkiham]

4 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yes, if there are enemies 3" near him who allow him to pile in in the first place. 

Not necessarily, that is one method of being able to pile in, as mentioned you can pile in  from just successful charging, so there is multiple ways of triggering a  pile in.

His rule appears to me to be a trigger 

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Not necessarily, that is one method of being able to pile in, as mentioned you can pile in  from just successful charging, so there is multiple ways of triggering a  pile in.

Certainly, you can pile in from succesful charging however in order to do that you still must finish that charge within 1/2" of an enemy model, meaning you are also within 3" of an enemy model. 

[Jharen]

9 minutes ago, Kramer said:

But only because you already ended within 1/2. So the order is: charge roll, check if you can get within 1/2 inch. Move. Resolve special rules. Pile in (remember you already qualified for piling in, being in combat) then attack. 

It kind of reads like wishful thinking guys  to me it seems quite clear a normal pile in just taken in a different phase, with a different distance of movement. Nothing saying it can move into combat with this, nothing saying it ignores the normal restrictions, nothing to say you can move to some other models except the closest. 

The confusion comes from the fact that Piling-in is NORMALLY part of the two step process of Attacking.  But is it exclusive to that process?

1) Pile-in.

2) Attack with all melee weapons.

To be specific the rules state: "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase."

Note that this is a restriction on the ATTACK (or possibly the 2 step attack sequence?), not a restriction on the specific action of Piling-In.  In fact, Piling-in isn't even stated in that line.  It also states "during the combat phase"  suggesting that this restriction ONLY applies during that phase.

So if an ability states to Pile-in during a phase other than the combat phase, and also fails to state AS IF it were the combat phase, do any of these restrictions still apply?

 

[Arkiham]

8 minutes ago, Killax said:

meaning you are also within 3" of an enemy model. 

Not nesseailry. This Used to be a faq , unsure if it is.

If say impact hits kill a thing you can still pile in, so the 3" model thing isn't a absolute requirement 

[Killax]

10 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Not nesseailry. This Used to be a faq , unsure if it is.

If say impact hits kill a thing you can still pile in, so the 3" model thing isn't a absolute requirement 

Guess it's another one of those 'go figure it out' AoS designs from Games Workshop...

[rokapoke]

19 minutes ago, Killax said:

Guess it's another one of those 'go figure it out' AoS designs from Games Workshop...

Yeah, it's almost like they want players to have fun however they want to...

[Killax]

Just now, rokapoke said:

Yeah, it's almost like they want players to have fun however they want to...

Yeah its super fun to remove The Goretide from Matched play options.

[Jaehaerys]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Certainly, you can pile in from succesful charging however in order to do that you still must finish that charge within 1/2" of an enemy model, meaning you are also within 3" of an enemy model. 

If it had to be after a charge or 3" of a unit then it's not a great ability as he's one model and has to pile in toward the closest model. I reckon he can be over 3" away in this instance as it's outside of combat phase.

[Killax]

18 minutes ago, Jaehaerys said:

If it had to be after a charge or 3" of a unit then it's not a great ability as he's one model and has to pile in toward the closest model. I reckon he can be over 3" away in this instance as it's outside of combat phase.

Well, the context that needs to be contained here is that if you thake him your more forced to thake The Goretide. In any case, you cannot run The Goretide without him anymore. The Goretide profides an additional D6" movement in each Hero phase for each The Goretide unit and that movement can be used to charge.

So the way I see it is that he can quite likely charge, the moment he's in a swarm he basically continues cutting. The ability is incredible. What is not that incredible is his own survivability  

[WoollyMammoth]

I think @rokapoke hit the nail on the head. He can pile in and attack in the hero phase.

Pile In
When you pile in, you may move each model in the unit up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This will allow the models in the unit to get closer to the enemy in order to attack them.

So he can move up to 8" toward the closest enemy model.

Attack is self-explanatory. Normally you cannot attack if you did not charge, but Khorgus does what he pleases....

People get this confused with "this unit may pile in up to X inches", meaning, once the unit is in combat, it can move extra inches to consolidate and surround the enemy. This is useful for hordes in which the guys in the back can be 4" or more from the action; this rule allows the unit to move toward the enemy it is in combat with much quicker without having to inch up over multiple combat phases like most units.

Unfortunately, the Knight-Questor is not so clear. He can pile in 6" toward an enemy hero if in combat. Well, if hes in combat that means he must be within 3" of something other than the hero and per pile in rules, he must pile into the closest model, which is not the hero. He needs a FAQ to clarify specifically that he is allowed to pile in to a hero instead of the nearest model.

[davidslv]

What it means is that if there's a enemy model within 8" of Khorgos Khul you can pile in towards that unit, if there's no enemy units within that 8" radius than he's not going anywhere.

 

 

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Not nesseailry. This Used to be a faq , unsure if it is.

If say impact hits kill a thing you can still pile in, so the 3" model thing isn't a absolute requirement 

But only because you already ended within 1/2. So the order is: charge roll, check if you can get within 1/2 inch. Move. Resolve special rules. Pile in (remember you already qualified for piling in, being in combat) then attack. 

It kind of reads like wishful thinking guys  to me it seems quite clear a normal pile in just taken in a different phase, with a different distance of movement. Nothing saying it can move into combat with this, nothing saying it ignores the normal restrictions, nothing to say you can move to some other models except the closest.