Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Fulgrima]

Yea I was thinking to have the Terror Chicken with a staff of Tzeentch as I figured his weapon would be well suited to that.

[Deathawaits101]

Gonna try this list Sunday at a local tournament.

1x Lord of Change 

1x Fate Weaver

1x Gaunt Summoner

1x Shaman 

10x Maurauders 

10x Maurauders

40x Acolytes 

9x Sky Fires

 

[TheOtherJosh]

6 hours ago, Deathawaits101 said:

Gonna try this list Sunday at a local tournament.

1x Lord of Change 

1x Fate Weaver

1x Gaunt Summoner

1x Shaman 

10x Maurauders 

10x Maurauders

40x Acolytes 

9x Sky Fires

 

So, a Grand Alliance Chaos Army, with Allegiance Tzeentch?

No Allies listed, so it looks legal.

What was your decision point to not use battalions?

[Tizianolol]

I think marauders got tz mark so this list Is legal, its a normal tz list, why not?

[Deathawaits101]

9 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

So, a Grand Alliance Chaos Army, with Allegiance Tzeentch?

No Allies listed, so it looks legal.

What was your decision point to not use battalions?

 Yes no allies as the Maurauders are mark of tzeentch! 

[Josh]

hey bros,

going to start the army and working towards 2000pts, just wanted to see if i got the right idea on this to learn at 1000 pts, thinking more what i get in boxes as to what the list is made up of, waiting to get the book to decide on equipment but gaunt summoner on balewind, blues to capture objectives and brims as my chaff, feel free to lmk whats good to take on my heros  i feel like a ritual dagger would be better on the herald 

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- Staff of Change 
The Changeling (140)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (120)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (120)

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
30 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (100)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 970/1000
 

[Nico]

You should take the list as 870 plus 120 of summoning pool as sometimes will want to summon Herald or Blues instead.

[Josh]

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

You should take the list as 870 plus 120 of summoning pool as sometimes will want to summon Herald or Blues instead.

excellent point! thank you

[RoloMcFury]

Good evening, fellow Disciples! I've got a 2k tourney this weekend, using the following 3 GHB2017 missions: Battle for the Pass, Duality of Death, and Scorched Earth. As such, I'm bringing a list that can dominate objectives:

Lord of Change

The Changeling

Blue Scribes

Herald of Tzeentch

x10 Pink Horrors

x10 Pink Horrors

x10 Pink Horrors

x30 Brimstone Horrors

x30 Brimstone Horrors

x30 Brimstone Horrors

x30 Brimstone Horrors

x30 Brimstone Horrors

Changehost

Reinforcements= 280

 

Reinforcements are to allow two Pink squads to peel all the way down and either a third or summoning a Balewind for the Herald, who has been an all-star during my time playing this codex.

As I see it, this list is nigh unbeatable in Scorched Earth. You force first turn (1 drops being more rare than ever most likely) put Changeling on an opposing objective (whichever is least protected) and swap him with 10 Pinks immediately, burning their objective end of turn no matter how it plays out (with 20 Blues if it's really necessary). Your opponent basically will start the game down an objective- just gotta hold em off for a bit from then on for a free win.

Duality of Death is the weakest of the three for this army, but Changeling is dirty birdy in this mission, combined with the incredible mobility two Changehost swaps a turn offer you. Battle for the Pass is an obvious easy one for this army, because of the hordes rule the mission adds for holding objectives (Brimstones for days).

Regarding the sheer mass of Brimstones, I'm running them because they actually do very solid damage for their points when getting the horde discount (60 5+/5+ shots ain't something to sneeze at). They're also stupid cheap at 30 for 100 and can hold objectives all day. Having 12 units in the Changehost also gives you more swaps per turn in the early game (2 until you lose 5 full units). Furthermore, swapping them around gives you a despicable amount of mobility.

I'll report back after the event. I feel the biggest weakness this list has is the obvious lack of damage. I could see some well-piloted Fyreslayers giving me trouble, with their nutty durability. Of course, you don't win these missions by destroying your opponent- play the mission!

[Josh]

interesting ^

 

agree that heavy hitters aren't an issue if they are swapped by chaff units

[Nico]

To be fair on Scorched Earth if they have models on 32mm bases or 25mm bases, then they can simply match you model for model - and choose not to attack your 10 Pinks. Then you don't score it.

[Nico]

Also Brimstones will melt very rapidly - even average units will be killing 10-15 models a turn and then Battleshock will add to this. The real strength of Horrors is Split. I suspect smaller units of Blues with a bigger pool would be more effective.

[RoloMcFury]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

To be fair on Scorched Earth if they have models on 32mm bases or 25mm bases, then they can simply match you model for model - and choose not to attack your 10 Pinks. Then you don't score it.

Fortunately, this isn't happening in a vacuum. We just need to use a long-ranged spell or two (easy for the Herald on Balewind) along with the Pink's pathetic shooting+melee to winnow the ranks of whichever objective-defending unit you need to weaken to ensure the 10 Pinks are able to take it. As you have three objectives to choose from, the only scenario this doesn't work out is if your opponent has a 30+ model unit on each objective- a rarity (at least in my meta).

3 hours ago, Nico said:

Also Brimstones will melt very rapidly - even average units will be killing 10-15 models a turn and then Battleshock will add to this. The real strength of Horrors is Split. I suspect smaller units of Blues with a bigger pool would be more effective.

That's a fair gut reaction. However, digging into the numbers tell a different story. Here are the "Wounds per Point" values for a few standout units across the alliances:

As you can see, even in the worst-case scenario for Brimstone Horrors (rend 0 wounds- they have no save!), they can hang with some of the most cost-efficient units in the game. This effectiveness is solely the result of their having the lowest per-model cost in the entire game, especially with the horde discount.

You also mention morale losses as a concern. Fortunately, they're still demons, rocking that 10 bravery + another 1 or 2 for being in a big squad. In the example you gave of 10-15 getting killed, the morale losses (on average) would only be 1.5 if 10 die or 7.5 if 15 die. Losing 7.5 models might sound like a beating, but that's only 25 points of your army! 

To summarize, Brimstones are an underestimated unit, but they can excel due to attrition. Running five units of these only uses a quarter of my list- there's still plenty of shenanigans to be had in the other 1500.

A minor note- I am by no means saying the split rule is not good. Hell, it's incredible, which is why I'm running 3 squads of Pink Horrors with points left to split at least 2 of them.

Another minor note- I just grabbed a few units off the top of my head for the data above. If you have a particularly cost-effective/durable unit you'd like to compare, let me know! I can also get data on the damage Brimstones deal, but I encourage you to take a look for yourself. Their price point paints a similar picture in that realm!

[Solaris]

9 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

As I see it, this list is nigh unbeatable in Scorched Earth. You force first turn (1 drops being more rare than ever most likely) put Changeling on an opposing objective (whichever is least protected) and swap him with 10 Pinks immediately, burning their objective end of turn no matter how it plays out (with 20 Blues if it's really necessary). Your opponent basically will start the game down an objective- just gotta hold em off for a bit from then on for a free win.

This is not going to work, for several reasons. First off, your army is 1 drop. You won't know which objective is going to be least protected when you deploy the Changeling. There is no way that you can "burn their objective end of turn no matter how it plays out". Putting a unit with 30+ models on the objective where you deploy your changeling will completely nullify your strategy.

Quote

Duality of Death is the weakest of the three for this army, but Changeling is dirty birdy in this mission, combined with the incredible mobility two Changehost swaps a turn offer you. Battle for the Pass is an obvious easy one for this army, because of the hordes rule the mission adds for holding objectives (Brimstones for days).

I wouldn't say that Battle for the Pass is an obvious easy one, that would depend entirely on the run rolls of your Brimstones turn 1. If you don't cover enough board, your opponent will be first on the objectives and your lack of damage output will lose you the game. I'd go for Treacherous Bond on one of your casters to aid in Duality of Death. That, in combination with the Changeling, makes this your strongest scenario in my opinion.

Quote

Regarding the sheer mass of Brimstones, I'm running them because they actually do very solid damage for their points when getting the horde discount (60 5+/5+ shots ain't something to sneeze at). They're also stupid cheap at 30 for 100 and can hold objectives all day. Having 12 units in the Changehost also gives you more swaps per turn in the early game (2 until you lose 5 full units). Furthermore, swapping them around gives you a despicable amount of mobility.

I'll report back after the event. I feel the biggest weakness this list has is the obvious lack of damage. I could see some well-piloted Fyreslayers giving me trouble, with their nutty durability. Of course, you don't win these missions by destroying your opponent- play the mission!

I don't think Brimstones do solid damage at all, a group of 30 will one average do 6.5 wounds at 12" range, and with the amount in your list they are not all going to be in range to shoot. Your main source of damage is mortal wounds from spells, and then you essentially have shitloads of bubble wrap. I think holding objectives all day will be more difficult than you expect since competitive lists are easily able to kill 2-4 of your units per turn. As @Nico says, making use of splitting is the one way you can combat this. I'd suggest dropping a bunch of Brimstones and adding in some combat elements instead, I think that would be a major improvement of your list.

[RoloMcFury]

1 minute ago, Solaris said:

This is not going to work, for several reasons. First off, your army is 1 drop. You won't know which objective is going to be least protected when you deploy him. There is no way that you can "burn their objective end of turn no matter how it plays out". Putting a unit with 30+ models on the objective you deploy your changeling will completely nullify your strategy.

Changeling's rules were finally clarified in the FAQ. He is now placed after set up, allowing him to be placed in front of whichever objective is least secure. He can be placed 3" away from it, in your "opponent's territory" which includes entire half of the board (it doesn't say their deployment zone). Next you may say the Lord of Change's 27" swap range could be the issue. Easy fix there is to have the LoC swap first to get closer, since we get two swaps and I'd gladly burn them both turn 1 to take an enormous lead.

 

7 minutes ago, Solaris said:

TI wouldn't say that Battle for the Pass is an obvious easy one, that would depend entirely on the run rolls of your Brimstones turn 1. If you don't cover enough board, your opponent will be first on the objectives and your lack of damage output will lose you the game. I'd go for Treacherous Bond on one of your casters to aid in Duality of Death. That, in combination with the Changeling, makes this your strongest scenario in my opinion.

To ensure either 10 Pinks or 30 Brimstones are able to take each a mid-table objective, we just need to Changehost swap two such units with each other. Because the rest of the squad gets placed within 9" of the first model swapped, it's basically a free 9" move for two of your units (saving the other swap for Changeling shenanigans!).

Agreed on Duality of Death, unfortunately Treacherous Bond is a mortal spell, which would require making my list more than 1 drop. I greatly value having the 1 drop list to determine who goes first. Treacherous Bond is just brutal in this mission though, especially with the premium chaff this codex has to offer.

12 minutes ago, Solaris said:

I don't think Brimstones do solid damage at all, a group of 30 will one average do 6.5 wounds at 12" range, and with the amount in your list they are not all going to be in range to shoot. Your main source of damage is mortal wounds from spells, and then you essentially have shitloads of bubble wrap. I think holding objectives all day will be more difficult than you expect since competitive lists are easily able to kill 2-4 of your units per turn. As @Nico says, making use of splitting is the one way you can combat this. I'd suggest dropping a bunch of Brimstones and adding in some combat elements instead, I think that would be a major improvement of your list.

About to head to work or I'd post the math hammer for Brimstones' damage. I should clarify that they don't do solid damage overall, but they do solid damage for their points, which is the key to their value. I'll dig into this more later today.

Thanks for the comments so far. Please let me know if you see any other flaws in the plan- hoping it goes well Saturday. I was running Dupe Host before GHB2017 and pretty much every game I lost was do to my own errors- it was a monster list. It can still be run with the new points, but I'm only able to fit enough reinforcements to peel 1 Pink squad all the way down and 1 squad down to Blues. Thus, I'm giving this Brimstone Horror insanity a try.

[Solaris]

45 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

Changeling's rules were finally clarified in the FAQ. He is now placed after set up, allowing him to be placed in front of whichever objective is least secure. He can be placed 3" away from it, in your "opponent's territory" which includes entire half of the board (it doesn't say their deployment zone). Next you may say the Lord of Change's 27" swap range could be the issue. Easy fix there is to have the LoC swap first to get closer, since we get two swaps and I'd gladly burn them both turn 1 to take an enormous lead.

Yeah, I see now they adjusted the Arch-Deceiver. Still, there is absolutely no guarantee that you can get a numerical advantage on any one objective with a measly 10 Horrors. If your opponent has a really crappy list, or fudges up their deployment, then sure, you have a free win. Against a competent player with a decent list, I still don't think it will work. I'll use my Tzeentch list for an upcoming tournament as an example. If you face 30 Blue Horrors, 10 Pinks  and 3 Skyfires on one objective, 30 Tzaangors on the second and 20 Brimstones, 10 Pinks and 6 Enlightened on the third, which one will you attack? How will you ensure that your 10 Pinks get a numerical advantage? Even swapping 30 Brimstones will in no way guarantee that you get a numerical advantage anywhere.

45 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

To ensure either 10 Pinks or 30 Brimstones are able to take each a mid-table objective, we just need to Changehost swap two such units with each other. Because the rest of the squad gets placed within 9" of the first model swapped, it's basically a free 9" move for two of your units (saving the other swap for Changeling shenanigans!).

This is true, that's pretty nasty. Still, your opponent will be able to smash these two units off of the objectives on their turn 1, and then possibly secure them fully if they get a double turn. If they do, you really lack the damage output to take the objectives back from them.

45 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

About to head to work or I'd post the math hammer for Brimstones' damage. I should clarify that they don't do solid damage overall, but they do solid damage for their points, which is the key to their value. I'll dig into this more later today.

Math hammered point efficiency is all fine and dandy, but there are so many things that it doesn't take into account that it cannot be relied on fully for list building. It's a great tool, for sure, but not the be all end all. Take the Frostlord on Stonehorn with Battle Brew that was borderline gamebreaking in GH1, for example. Even back then, it was nothing special in terms of point efficiency (neither offensively nor defensively). What made it really strong was its speed, resilience, solid damage output (albeit point inefficient) and small footprint. This allowed it to act as a surgeon precision wrecking ball with incredible threat range.

Brimstone Horrors simply have too large of a footprint and too short of a threat range to be able to output solid damage, despite their point efficiency. Having 1-2 units of 30 I can agree with, but having 5 units of them seems completely over the top and not very strong at all.

Either way, please report back with the results. I'm curious about this approach =)

[RoloMcFury]

28 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Yeah, I see now they adjusted the Arch-Deceiver. Still, there is absolutely no guarantee that you can get a numerical advantage on any one objective with a measly 10 Horrors. If your opponent has a really crappy list, or fudges up their deployment, then sure, you have a free win. Against a competent player with a decent list, I still don't think it will work. I'll use my Tzeentch list for an upcoming tournament as an example. If you face 30 Blue Horrors, 10 Pinks  and 3 Skyfires on one objective, 30 Tzaangors on the second and 20 Brimstones, 10 Pinks and 6 Enlightened on the third, which one will you attack? How will you ensure that your 10 Pinks get a numerical advantage? Even swapping 30 Brimstones will in no way guarantee that you get a numerical advantage anywhere.

I will refer to this previous answer I made for a similar question a bit ago:

"Fortunately, this isn't happening in a vacuum. We just need to use a long-ranged spell or two (easy for the Herald on Balewind) along with the Pink's pathetic shooting+melee to winnow the ranks of whichever objective-defending unit you need to weaken to ensure the 10 Pinks are able to take it. As you have three objectives to choose from, the only scenario this doesn't work out is if your opponent has a 30+ model unit on each objective- a rarity (at least in my meta)."

Now I'll admit this plan may not work in your very specific example above. However, Tzeentch is possibly the strongest army on objectives in the game, particularly when utilizing the Horror's split rule, making this  a tall order. Most armies I encounter are not able to field 30 models on each of 3 objectives in the first case. Like I said, I just gotta take one!

 

51 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Math hammered point efficiency is all fine and dandy, but there are so many things that it doesn't take into account that it cannot be relied on fully for list building. It's a great tool, for sure, but not the be all end all. Take the Frostlord on Stonehorn with Battle Brew that was borderline gamebreaking in GH1, for example. Even back then, it was nothing special in terms of point efficiency (neither offensively nor defensively). What made it really strong was its speed, resilience, solid damage output (albeit point inefficient) and small footprint. This allowed it to act as a surgeon precision wrecking ball with incredible threat range.

Brimstone Horrors simply have too large of a footprint and too short of a threat range to be able to output solid damage, despite their point efficiency. Having 1-2 units of 30 I can agree with, but having 5 units of them seems completely over the top and not very strong at all.

Either way, please report back with the results. I'm curious about this approach =)

Well, I can't argue with that. I could put up stats about how efficient 30-man Brimstones are, but you have a very fair point regarding intangibles that you can't put a numerical value on. As such, we'll see how it plays Saturday. 

I'll make Brimstone Believers out of you all!!! Hehehe

[Solaris]

5 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

Now I'll admit this plan may not work in your very specific example above. However, Tzeentch is possibly the strongest army on objectives in the game, particularly when utilizing the Horror's split rule, making this  a tall order. Most armies I encounter are not able to field 30 models on each of 3 objectives in the first case. Like I said, I just gotta take one!

Yeah, my response was including what you wrote previously. I simply doubt that your list has the kind of raw damage output on turn 1 that may be necessary to give 10 Pinks a numerical advantage. It will depend heavily on what opponent and list you end up facing in this scenario.

5 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

I'll make Brimstone Believers out of you all!!! Hehehe

Looking forward to it

[Gilby]

20 points would upgrade 30 brims to 30 blues. For that you'd get a save, more range and damage from the shooting, the ability to add models back to the unit if a pink dies nearby and the ability to split into brims as your objective holding unit dies. 100 points of reserves and you could have the 30 blues turn into 30 brims.

[AverageBoss]

20 minutes ago, Gilby said:

20 points would upgrade 30 brims to 30 blues. For that you'd get a save, more range and damage from the shooting, the ability to add models back to the unit if a pink dies nearby and the ability to split into brims as your objective holding unit dies. 100 points of reserves and you could have the 30 blues turn into 30 brims.

Would require 120 points of reserves. The split units are effectively summoned and do not exist in your list until they arrive on the table. Therefore they do not get the horde discount.

[Gilby]

15 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Would require 120 points of reserves. The split units are effectively summoned and do not exist in your list until they arrive on the table. Therefore they do not get the horde discount.

Where does it say that out of curiosity? 

[RoloMcFury]

1 hour ago, Gilby said:

20 points would upgrade 30 brims to 30 blues. For that you'd get a save, more range and damage from the shooting, the ability to add models back to the unit if a pink dies nearby and the ability to split into brims as your objective holding unit dies. 100 points of reserves and you could have the 30 blues turn into 30 brims.

Interesting thought! I just ran the numbers on their survivability and damage output:

 

That 6+ save doesn't offer enough of a difference to make up for the extra cost, unfortunately.

Regarding damage:

The Brimstones manage to edge out the Blues once more, due to having twice as many attacks (albeit much weaker). The above scenario assumes all 30 will strike in melee, which is all but impossible, although equally likely for either version of Horror.

Edit- the above damage math is assumed against a 4+ target. For whatever reason, that's the one I always use. Neither weapon in this scenario has rend, so they'd be the same against any target.

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Gilby said:

Where does it say that out of curiosity? 

I haven't seen a "You can't use the Massive Regiment points" line, but this section was added to the chaos FAQ:

"Note that in matched play, you can add models to an existing unit of Blue Horrors even if doing so will increase it above its starting size, up until the unit contains 10 models – any excess Blue Horrors are then lost." 

That appears to indicate that one is spending for a minimum unit size for a summoning/reinforcement.

And a full split would require a unit of 15 pinks, to go to 30 blues.

...Either that or you can't reinforce a massive regiment unit of blues in Pitched battle until they drop below 10 models.

[Tzeentch]

Hi everyone, I have a couple quick questions about the Gaunt Summoner w/ Chaos Familiars:

1) Where can the rules be found for the Chaos Familiars? edit: I found them in the WHQuest PDF. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-whquest-rules-en.pdf

2) Can you place Chaos Familiars on top the Balewind Vortex with the Gaunt Summoner, or do they simply go away if you put your Summoner on a Vortex?

 

It seems like a no-brainer to take the Gaunt Summoner w/ the Familiars, since the points cost is the same and the Familiars are simply added benefits.

[TheOtherJosh]

5 minutes ago, Tzeentch said:

Hi everyone, I have a couple quick questions about the Gaunt Summoner w/ Chaos Familiars:

1) Where can the rules be found for the Chaos Familiars?

2) Can you place Chaos Familiars on top the Balewind Vortex with the Gaunt Summoner, or do they simply go away if you put your Summoner on a Vortex?

 

It seems like a no-brainer to take the Gaunt Summoner w/ the Familiars, since the points cost is the same and the Familiars are simply added benefits.

1. Standard Chaos Familiars were Compendium units. They are no longer in the GHB 2017. The Summoner Familiars are on his(?) Warscroll. (Under the "Silver Tower" section of the AoS app.)

2. Familiars go on top of the Balewind.

Apparently Tzeentch is testing us ... or is an impostor ... hmmmmm ....