Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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@Brakkus Seems fine honestly.. curious to hear how testing goes for you. I have a preference towards Fiends over Acolytes nowadays and I typically try to always squeeze in 6 Jezzails or a Melee threat somewhere; balances out to 1 long range, 1 CC and 1 Mixed set of threats. Trying to make Thanquol a melee threat is alright, although he never pays off for me in that role and I just find 4 Warpfire being better even against units of 10 or even elite units of 6-9. That said, he's the best option to cast WLV with and having him up front helps get it somewhere important.
I don't know about switching to a Warpseer over him though.. then you really only have 2 threats both of which are neutered on losing the support heroes. WLV is just going to be swingy for you and with it being so close it has a good potential of hurting you if you aren't careful with it's placement so just be wary. Lately I've had the most success from Grinder Team'd Stormfiends combined with a Doomwheel or Cannon and 40 Stormvermin... or 12 Stormfiends across a Bridge 😅
Always worth trying things out and seeing how they work for you; what works for me or others here may not for you and vice versa.. just be sure to let us know how things go. -
29 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
@Gwendar are you using Grafana to display that Data?
It's this actually: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/
Can even put in target data to calculate damage done with save RR's, DPR's and wound passing off all taken into account.-
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1 hour ago, Obeisance said:
So how's Skaven doing competitively at the moment?
I've been off putting bolter rounds in things.
Eh, I'd say middle of the pack. We struggle against the meta stuff (Serpahon, Tzeentch, KO and Lumineth) but I mean... everyone kind of is right now. For me it's really just been adapting a different playstyle by being more aggressive in 1 turn and hoping for the next turn priority.. usually this means using a Grinder team with 6 Stormfiends or a Bridge. I've had reasonable success with 12 Fiends and 6 with a Grinder team to keep them off the table vs T1 shooting\magic.
I think the issue really just lies on how reliant our Skryre stuff is to get those buffs; once those Wizards are dead they hit like wet noodles. Some guys have done well in recent tournaments but it's generally been through our method of alpha striking to counter an opponents alpha striking. -
On 8/28/2020 at 11:08 AM, Coyote said:
I’m confused too, thought it was out but still shows up in the new updated Azyr app? An oversight?
Things will still show up in Azyr when you search for them because it shows all Legends units. Bottom line, if they don't have points in the GHB under the right profile then they moved to Legends.
The Warpgnaw has points listed in the GHB under Pitched Battle Profiles and thus can be used but the Brood Horror\CLoBH does not and instead has points listed under Legends Pitched Battle Profiles which are not legal for matched play. -
6 hours ago, Kharl said:
Hi,
Preparing my army for a 2k tournament, I am wondering if the Fatemaster is mandatory for an Eternal Conflagration list ?
I tried some maths and seems that it is worth especially if you have negative to hit in front. Am I right?
thx
I wouldn't say it's mandatory. Personally, I find that with them hitting\wounding on 2's they get the job done against pretty much anything. If you're shooting at something with Look out, Sir (so 4's to hit with an Exalted nearby) then you can use a CP for RR 1's but generally those support heroes are taken out regardless with 6 Flamers averaging 10 damage vs a 4+ save with Look out, Sir.
The below mathhammer shows the difference between 6 Flamers (hitting\wounding on 2's) and 10 Pink Horrors (hitting\wounding on 4's and 3's) with and without the Fatemasters RR's. Personally, I don't think he's worth 120 points to squeeze out 2-4 more damage out of stuff, but I suppose that all adds up if you have 2 Pink units and all 12 Flamers + Exalted Flamers shooting within that 9" aura.
The below has done reasonably well (10th overall at a large TTS tournament this past weekend going 2-1) but I prefer more wizards and Bridge + Spellportal + BW for my Changehost\Eternal Conflag lists:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Battalions
Changehost (180)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
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@Darkhan 60 works well enough in this application; your whole strategy is to Alpha strike your opponent off the board rather than play the grind-down game of typical Skaven.
I struggled with the same thing of not feeling like I need the Bell and could just replace with a Grey Seer on foot but.. haven't made up my mind on that. He's really just there to give BS immunity to the Fiends that cross the Bridge than for Clanrats.-
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1 minute ago, Darkhan said:
Epic good sir! Can't wait to try😊
I really like it.. about as much as a more "standard" list with SV + Fiends + Jezzails (which I run with a Grinder Team) but they both have their merits and good vs. bad matchups.
Still testing it for tournament use but it's won\placed very high at larger tournaments. So I'll be buying and painting 6 more Stormfiends most likely 😅-
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2 hours ago, Darkhan said:
Need some rat friend help! 80% of minis is currently at my parents, which is in another city. Anyway!
Have any of you tried to fit 12 stormfiends around the bridge? Can they fit? I don't have anything nearby to check, and my computer screen is broken, so I can't test in TTS haha.
I have a 2 days, 5 games team tournament coming up in a couple months. And I'm going bonkers list just for the hell of it. Just to have fun, and drink those beers.
So either, 12 stormfiends with bridge.
Or
3 doomwheels + 9 jezzails.
Yeah, I've done it a bit recently and it works fine. Even if Bridge fails to go off they still do reasonably well just walking forward for a turn and shooting the Windlaunchers at something; I usually try to cast Bridge before MMMWP just in case.
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12 minutes ago, Hannibal said:
I like the idea, but what is a BW Changecaster?
Balewind Changecaster. That's usually how I refer to him since he's always the top pick for it to throw out Pink Fire and Bolt at 24". You can get him down to a 2+ save pretty easily as well; +1 from the BW, +1 from Brand and +1 from Cover if you park it on Terrain as the BW is an endless spell and not terrain like the old version was.
I'm enjoying it while it lasts before it get's put into legends since it's apparently discontinued... -
So, watching some games in Discord last night, heard a nice little bit about a Chosen based list from Kaleb Walters and I fell in love. I couldn't tell what the list was (guy streaming was afk so I couldn't see the list) but had a go at creating my own version:
SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
Battleline
10 x Tzaangors (180)
- 2x Pair of Savage Blade
- 4x Savage Greatblade
- 4x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
Units
10 x Chaos Chosen (280)
10 x Chaos Chosen (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Soulscream Bridge (100)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116
Basically, you have a block of 10 dudes that get RR all hits\wounds from the Sorcerer Lord. Then they auto-charge across the Bridge with Fate Dice which will complete the Reckless Abandon agenda to get +1 attack. Chaos Lord makes them fight twice (if needed) and you have 41 attacks RR'ing everything and 6's to hit are 1 MW in addition to normal damage... averaging out to ~30 damage vs a 4+ save with anywhere from 6-15 of those being straight up MW's. You then have a 2nd block of them in reserve as needed. 280 points for this kind of damage has them punch pretty high above their weight class.
It still follows the standard "firebase" of a Bridge castle with a BW Changecaster that hands out RR's while throwing out 2d6 MW's at 24". Kairos getting those hard-to-reach areas to create an inescapable Chaos Spawn, etc. May try it out some this weekend and get some reports up.. I really like the idea of it and it's something different than 6 Enlightened\Skyfires.-
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@michu I really like that actually.. may need to start running something like that for my teaching games around the 1k mark as it's super balanced. Monks are still a powerhouse but less oppressive than Stormvermin (for new players) and the Jezzails help teach pre-measuring or else say goodbye to your buffing character 😅
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1 minute ago, michu said:
Question. Are Jezzails good for 1250 pts list? Because bringing whole squad is a bit priceful and I'm not sure that less than 9 is enough for any point level.
3 isn't worth it (maybe at 1k?) but 6-9 is definitely a good sweet spot. 6 is enough firepower that, on average, you'll be able to 1-shot 5 wound heroes and put dents into other things if not.
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@grucha In 2k, yeah more than 40 Stormvermin is a bit much. At 1250 then running 80 could be pretty obscene, assuming you're playing on a 4x4 table.
Seeing as how I'm biased with Skryre, I prefer your last list with 6 Fiends and 40 Stormvermin... but if I were to pick one of the others then maybe #3, although I think you'd get more out of another Clawlord to be honest than you would a Deathmaster. On average he'll maybe do 1-3 damage no matter which loadout you pick. The Clawlord can potentially do more, especially if it's hurt (for more attacks) but it also lets you field each SV unit on both sides of the board for more coverage.-
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3 hours ago, RatKing said:
Ooh, I may hit you up in the future after this tournament. TTS has really opened my eyes to so many different aspects of the game. My original tournament army was FS and all I ever had to do/did was just march on forward and hope my heroes dont get blasted off the board.
Skaven on the other hand are making me stretch in so many different ways; the screening, the movement, the shenanigans!
I've yet to really dive into stormfiends, Ive played one game with them and they just sat in a tunnel doing nothing for 2 rounds (I may have forgotten them 😅).
For the last game of the tournament I was going to try a full skaventide mix so I will definately have to find a way to get them in a list!
Yeah, it's been pretty amazing getting some actual high level gameplay in nowadays with the ability to test new stuff at any time (and whole new armies) which are 2 things I can't do locally.. most of my people are pretty casual aside from about 4 other guys. So if you ever want to play or have any other questions then for sure let me know, I'm Gwendar in those discords as well.
Clanrats are pretty important and even 3x20 has been doing relatively well as people tend to ignore them in anything besides the Battleplans where battleline units give you extra points.. people don't give enough credit to retreat and charge or their potential 14" movement. I think I may still prefer my 6 Fiend list with a Grinder but there's definitely something to be said about 12 Fiends with a Bridge for sure. Like you may have read in that last batrep, had I got those 2 spells off T1 I likely would've won. But you know... such is our life in general anymore; no MMMWP? Have fun doing far less damage this turn.56 minutes ago, Ratling said:Wow those artifacts are trash now!
Yeeeah... like I said, not having Ghyrstrike or a decent replacement even in the Skaven book makes him rather useless now as he isn't as consistently able to pump out that 20 damage. That said, if I ever roll a 12 on the Bell he's usually what I will summon in next to a Warpseer.
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3 minutes ago, Graywater said:
Thanks for this writeup. After playing solely daughters for the past year and a half, I've been looking for something new to play and fell on a stormfiend based skryre list. So I bought 12. Happy to see them do decently well.
Thanks for reading! These types of lists have done pretty well for people in the past so I wanted to give it a solid run.. whether or not it's better than just 6 Fiends with a Grinder and 2 other threats on the board remains to be seen, but I'll surely keep you all updated as I practice it.
Also, since there's some interest in streaming.. anytime I play a game I'm streaming it via discord (have yet to get my twitch channel back up and going) and typically play around 8pm EST on the weekdays or anytime Saturday\Sunday. These discords are usually where I stream that anyone can join (especially if you all would like to try TTS 😉:
https://discord.gg/3yRWYsB
https://discord.gg/mxTX9A2 -
Got a quick one for you all using 12 Stormfiends with Bridge (spoilers, never got to use Bridge) which was interesting and has a ton of potential, honestly.
It just helps when your casting rolls aren't trash for the first couple of turns 😉
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20 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
I usually bring Doomblast Dirgehorn and Geminids in my lists if I run Elightened.
Actually yeah, I do run Geminids in my Hosts list.. so I guess that's actually a further -1 I forgot about. At -3 and -2 they may as well not even activate at all 😅
Still, nice to have the Be'lakor\Visions of the Past interaction straightened out. I'll definitely look at trying them in place of the Skyfires this weekend I think. -
@Blisterfeet It depends on the army. Most of them have specific allegiance\battalion rules that say "for each unit deployed on the table, 1 can be off the table" type thing. But that's not the case for us as Gutter Runner's, Deathmasters and Grinders starting off the table rules are all built into their warscroll (like Shadow Warriors) to allow them to be off the table with no requirements for anything being on the table.
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2 hours ago, Congratz said:
Im still not sure with Acolytes either... might be 20” range but they are still 32mm and really squishy.
Stormvermin it is, love the lore and the model. Think monks look a bit... weird...
Yeah the old points for Warpseer was amazing
12 Jezzails?! That sounds fun and deadly!
2 hours ago, Congratz said:By the way is the Warpgnaw Verminlord any good? Cool model!
Yeah, like I said I just find them harder to use.. and against shooting armies they get deleted but Stormfiends can at least somewhat hold on. Their 4+ save and 20 wounds taken before shooting is affected (IE an entire unit of Acolytes) which is important in the current meta. Playing against Orruks or any other combat based army with little shooting? Acolytes all day if their cheapness lets you fit in other stuff.. but Fiends get the job done just as well usually as Acolytes tend to overkill nearly anything they shoot at.
Anyway, Stormvermin are definitely great, but they do take a bit more movement finesse to ensure they're in range of +1 attack and all that. Without it they only slightly punch above 40 Monks on the charge. That said, SV also get retreat and charge which means you'll pretty much always have the entire unit in combat with something if they last against getting hit back. As for Jezzails... I ran a list last week with 24 of them. Didn't work out for me but it had potential against some matchups. On average you're probably looking at 16-18 damage out of them with hit RR's and a warpspark which is about half as much as Fiends output for the same cost. They can work, but I still think 6-9 is the sweet spot.
The Warpgnaw is... meh. Since we lost Ghyrstrike he's far less reliable in his damage output which is really all he does. Hitting\wounding on 3's isn't bad, but when you only have 4 attacks you will most certainly feel that. Previously I was able to consistently put out 10-20 damage against nearly anything with that 2's\2's profile and RR'ing 1's on both. Now he just whiffs far more.. still debating if I want to sell it since I haven't even assembled the one I got. I don't imagine he'll be around much longer with the the weirdness with FW stuff being taken away lately. -
46 minutes ago, Congratz said:
does this even work well anymore? I can see alot of you talking about Grinders with stormfiends and with Monks or Stormvermin (Which are best SV or Monks?)
what about Jezzails? Still worth it?
do i need to change my list and adapt it? Really don’t wanna lose my Bell and Jezzails... (tho the list above with nightrunners look pretty cool)
It definitely does, and as pointed out is basically Dan Brewers list which he's seen success with. I don't care much for Acolytes, but that's a personal preference and I'm not saying they're bad because they absolutely aren't.. I just find that I get more mileage (and ease of use) out of Fiends than I do Acolytes.
As for Monks\SV.. still a toss up for me. SV will absolutely hit harder but I think it's getting that extra attack from the Clawlord (and\or with Skavenbrew) that sets them apart. That said, 80 Monks or 40 + an HPA can also be quite good but you have to throw in 120 points for that 3rd battleline of Clanrats.
Screaming Bell still has a place and as much as I dislike the thing, it's nearly a requirement until the Warpseer drops back down to 280-300 points (I'm sure GW disagrees) and that's especially true if you're running SV. Oh, and Jezzails are 100% a top tier unit.. taken in anything between 6-12 is still where you want them. More and more people have been taking 1 large unit of 12 which have some decent applications in killing more than just heroes or behemoths... but nowhere near as well as Fiends, Acolytes, SV or Monks.-
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13 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
Stacking 2 -to hit debuffs on the intended target makes it pretty safe wait for Visions of the past. Otherwise it’s probably better to use a Fatemaster.
True, I didn't really think about that honestly. Treason (hopefully it will kill at least 1 model) + Enfeeble + Suggestion is a total of -2 to hit and wound which is absurd.
Be'lakor could shut a unit down for the Enlightened to hit, but my question then becomes this: If the opposing unit is shut down and can't attack in the combat phase, are they still counted as having fought for the purposes of the Enlightened RR's? I believe it's a yes as they have to "activate" in order to fight, but the Visions of the Past says they need to have "fought" and not "activate". Curious on others thoughts as I can see people disagreeing with that at a local level by saying "well, they didn't technically fight this turn so you don't get RR's".. so I can see it both way's.
EDIT: Found the answer from someone in Discord. "If the unit affected by Be'Lakors ability is eligible to be selected to fight in the combat phase it must do so as per the core rules. Be'Lakors ability specifically doesn't stop you from fighting it stops you from ATTACKING. The unit affected may still pile in as normal as it has been selected to fight however if it fails the 5+ it cannot ATTACK. As per the core rules that fight sequence therefore ends and the unit affected is then classified as having fought for the purposes of the enlightened."
This is what I assumed was correct, but I wanted to get a straight answer from others before any arguments popped up in my local scene about it. -
3 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:
What do we think ?? I'm a little unsure about the lack of battleshock immunity, I normally take a bell.
Who needs BS immunity if you kill all the important threats and end the game?
In all seriousness I do like it, I think you'd be fine. This is very reliant on you getting a double-turn, in my opinion. Luckily, everything can easily go right for you and you only need Cogs to happen. The reason I say you need a double is that many armies can screen against this and keep their important (IE unreachable with 12" Ratlings or Monks) stuff behind it. If they go next, your stuff has a good chance at being dead so just keep that in mind. If they deploy poorly then 100% go for it if you can remove threats that would counter your Fiends + Monks even if they went next.
Worth noting you could drop 20 Clanrats and take the Bell of Doom and an extra CP which is another charge reroll or BS immunity; both of which are important here. Bell may have an issue getting up the board to help the Fiends or Monks unless you cast it T2.. but could still be worth.-
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36 minutes ago, Chronos said:
Ah you know what, the first list I forgot I wanted to ask for advice regarding what to use that last 260 points on, either Be'Lakor or I could try and make a Gaunt Summoner work. I guess I could go Changehost and work a Changecaster and something else in. I'm not sure. I find Flamers to be pretty underwhelming without being buffed, so that's kind of why I'm leaning against Changehost. My friend will probably be playing the run and charge Ossiarch Legion so he can make up 18" really fast.
As for the second list, unless my math is wrong I should be able to do about 12 wounds on average to 4+ save models with a 6+ undead save with the Enlightened, even without the reroll. Like you said I'll try and use them selectively and carefully, but they should make for a great counter punch. I also like to save some fives and sixes for either the Bolt of Change/Pink Fire or save rolls versus the Mortek Crawler.
Thanks for the input.
Honestly I would go with Be'lakor if you really want him. Like we've said the last page or so.. he's just great all around for the points just for shutting a unit down which can heavily swing things in your favor if needed. Again, I love the Changecaster on a BW.. but yeah if you don't have access to one he isn't as great. Throwing out those two d6 MW spells at 24" is just wonderful and I especially like it in Hosts Duplicitous for the casting RR's. Oh and I forgot to mention, you can't take Aura of Mutability on the Scribes as it's a named character, as is the Changeling.
The "standard" Changehost list I use looks like this in case you were curious:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Battalions
Changehost (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulscream Bridge (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82
And oh yeah, Enlightened still hit relatively okay without the re-rolls... but the difference between getting them and not is pretty staggering. Definitely try everything out... I think you really need 3-5 games against multiple armies to really gauge what you can start swapping out. -
6 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:
Yea playing for the double seems quite risky for obvious reasons. Keeping the stormfiends off the board and being able to bring them on to reach anything with the launchers definitely seems like a better version of the bridge, which I think is just too expensive and risky now in the magic heavy meta. I like that early threat with the launchers and 6 jezzails being able to snipe off a character or two.
I guess clanrats move pretty quickly anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to get them into a screening position by running them up the board.
Always risky, but I feel more pressured to go for it nowadays or just get blasted off the board.. I can't really play as cagey as I used to. I still really vouch for the Bridge honestly.. I don't think you should be reliant on it, but if you can make it happen it's very helpful. Obviously if you don't get it then you have a 100 point paperweight for a turn which feels pretty bad, but that's not as many armies as you may think that will prevent you from doing that; the biggest threats are honestly just Tzeentch, Lumineth and Seraphon and even they have a chance to fail which could be a death sentence for them. The only bad thing with Grinder + Fiends is just Deranged Inventor not being MMMWP. That said, it "only" cuts off 5-7 damage on average.
Still thinking Cogs may be worth a test, we'll see if I can fit them in somewhere and maybe get some games in this week\weekend.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
I assume you only have a LoC and the Fatemaster right? A Spellportal could be alright but I'd say horrors would server better to sit on the backlines. That said a 2nd Flamer isn't terrible just to further compound your shooting. Not sure without seeing how the rest of the list looks.