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@Double Misfire thanks for the warm welcome. I’ve been focusing on Bretonnia and Endless Spells since the last GHB came out but I think this summer might see me return to dwarfs and guns! Unfortunately I have to agree with you that it seems the most correct to read the rules like you propose. I wonder if GW know how much a separate crew screws us over (they probably do since they decided to spare all Stormcast players of it).

@Verengard they all look amazing, there’s no doubt about that. With those big wingspans, however, it seems like such small bases could create coherency problems while doing specific manoeuvres, like piling in. Not sure if anyone here has an assembled set of Pegs and can confirm?

Awesome to see you here, @Duke of Gisoreux! I’m a big fan of your content. Thanks for the clarification of base sizes!

Hey guys! Long time no see I'm back with a funny rules question. I know the whole idea of mixing dwarven artillery and magic is sacrilege but since our armies are always just plain Order, I've been thinking about adding a wizard and the Emerald Lifeswarm... which brings me to my question: The rules state that enemy attacks can target either our war machines or the crew, but would it be possible to use the Lifeswarm to bring back crew, even if all three of them are wiped out? The rules of the Lifeswarm read pick 1 unit within 1" of it. You can either heal D3 wounds that have been allocated to that unit or, if no wounds are currently allocated to the unit, you may return a number of slain models to it that have a combined Wounds characteristic equal to or less than the roll of a D3. If, for the sake of this rule, the Cannon and its crew can be considered the same unit, then a roll of 5 or a 6 would bring back 160 points worth of utility (the spell itsef costs 60 points, though). What do you guys think? Edit: I realize my "Long time no see" only makes sense to those who were fans of the previous thread, Let's Chat: Ironweld Arsenal

I am going to base my answer on my own gut feeling and literally no facts at all, but here goes The unit I find the most similar to Pegasus Knights are actually Plague Drones from the Nurgle army. Both units are worth 200 points and consist of 3 flying models. The Plague Drones are on 60mm round bases so that's what I would use. In reality I don't believe anyone you play against using a Bretonnian army will give you a hard time regarding any advantages you might have. No-one ever mentioned, let alone complained, about the fact that I have all my models on the original square bases (the reason for this is that I still want to be able to use the models for Warhammer Fantasy Battles). I, too, am glad that you found this group and hope you will enjoy your stay! PS. Hoping to be able to post some more battle reports soon, but lately I haven't really had the time to get any games in...

No worries. I hope things will get sorted as soon as possible. And we are for sure looking forward to those reports. But hey - congratulations! Placing in the top 45% is definitely an achievement considering that you’re using an army that hasn’t been updated at all during the last three years. Impressive to say the least

@Iggy Starhost I think it’s maybe possible that the king might be worth 400 points. Only problem is that there are many heroes out there that are underpriced in comparison. @Drakilian photos of your battles will be awesome! Good luck

And one more thing: If I were was going to Adepticon next week, I would probably bring one of these lists: Allegiance: Order LEADERS Enchantress (160) Enchantress (160) Damsel (100) Noble Champion (80) UNITS 8 x Knights Errant (200) 8 x Knights Errant (200) 16 x Men At Arms (120) 10 x Grail Knights (360) 10 x Grail Knights (360) 5 x Grail Knights (180) ENDLESS SPELLS Chronomantic Cogs (60) Soulsnare Shackles (20) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 118 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) Or... Allegiance: Order LEADERS Enchantress (160) Enchantress (160) Damsel (100) Noble Champion (80) UNITS 16 x Men At Arms (120) 16 x Men At Arms (120) 8 x Knights Errant (200) 10 x Grail Knights (360) 10 x Grail Knights (360) 5 x Grail Knights (180) ENDLESS SPELLS Chronomantic Cogs (60) Prismatic Palisade (30) Soulsnare Shackles (20) TOTAL: 1950/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 118 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) @Drakilian, the latter one you could quite easily pull off by just proxy-ing 15 of your Knights of the Realm as Grail Knights

Dude, I literally use the Cogs every single game I play as Bretonnia. They are simply that good. My tips for using them: If you have a decent chance of getting the charge off, cast them on your first turn. It’s not the easiest spell to get off so use the Enchantress (always save the Chalice of potions for the Cogs). Cast it as your second spell to have the enemy waste any dispells on the first cast. Make sure to set it up exactly 9 inches in front of her (in the direction you want your Grail Knights to Charge) and if there is any terrain that your Enchantress could benefit from or hide behind, set it up with this in mind. Then, in the same Hero phase, activate the cogs to Speed up time. Charge the Grail Knights before you go with the Enchantress. Move the Enchantress up the field and possibly charge with her as well, depending on the situation. She has a little bit of fighting power in her, and the possible mortal wound output is worth at least considering. The most important parameters, however, are of course to stay within 10 inches of the Grail Knights for that epic saintly Guardians buff, and within 9 inches of the Cogs, so that you can use them again at the start of your next turn (don’t allow yourself to accidentally get out of range because of your pile-in move). If your Enchantress gets into combat, don’t forget that Spiteful Glance happens at the start of the combat phase. Be very aware of the possible self harm in keeping speeding up time, since Bretonnians don’t like to get counter charged by the enemy. I usually end up slowing down time for the middle rounds to keep the Enchantress alive, and then occasionally Speeding up time again on the last or second to last turn to make a mad dash to snatch any poorly protected objectives. Just remember that there’s no point in casting mystic shield on yourself while time is slowed down, since you can’t reroll a reroll. Hope this helps!

That sounds great! I don’t know what your nifty things are but may I suggest that you get a cheap mini-tripod if you don’t have one. I really like shots similar to the one at 0:47 - 0:55 in this battle report: By just setting up the tripod you would be able to effortlessly film the whole thing without impeaching on the (as I assume) limited play time per game, and you could easily just pick the GoPro up off the table anytime you wanted to record a certain detail of the battle. Go get ‘em!

Thank you for your feedback! Interesting points about the Men at Arms. In my opinion, however, you kind of answer your own statement at the end. Yes, a big block of Men at Arms offer a big footprint, but why waste so many points on a lackluster unit when you can just throw down the palisade to block the enemy? The king is always going to be a dilemma, yes, he is too expensive, but so is almost every unit we have access to, and we have to bring something, don’t we? I think one solution is to give him an artifact that at least protects him from being sniped too early. Myself, I always bring him with the Gryph-feather Charm, but my reasons are more thematic than they are competitive. Wow, that’s some deep analysis of a subpar unit The only thing you forgot to mention (which is relevant if they King is dead/left out of the list) is that Peasants can use the bravery of a Noble Champion if he is within 6 inches of the unit, thus changing their bravery to an acceptable 7. Still don’t like them, though... I agree with you about the king. I also like his command ability and fighting power, but honestly, the most utility I get out of him is in his last-minute game-changing relocation potential due to his great movement (assuming he is somewhat unharmed). More than once has he been able to fly and snatch an important objective that my opponent was dumb enough to leave defended by a 5 wound support hero. Regarding Endless spells, I would actually add the Soulsnare Shackles to your list. They are super cheap and can be very annoying for our enemies. Just throw them into a list where you need 20 more points to reach a round number of points! And finally, regarding transporting minis: I have never experimented with metal boxes and magnets so I will not venture there now. All I have to say is that I’ve always been using https://www.krmulticase.com/ and I love it. They offer many solution but my preferred one is https://www.krmulticase.com/product/cases/BP22-B which easily holds 2000 points for me. The interior is highly customizable so lances and stuff should not be a problem. Good luck!

Hello again everyone! February has been a tough month for me. I've been completely drowned in work and only managed to play a single game. Although I haven't had the time to respond, I've really enjoyed following your discussion. Now: Adepticon is only three weeks away and our ambassador, @Drakilian, is going to try to put Bretonnia on the map My two cents is that the Men-at-Arms are only really worth to bring if you need to reach the right amount of battleline units. On a strategic level, I think Bretonnia can really only win a competitive game when we outmanoeuvre our opponents, manage to snatch objectives and then just hold off the enemy onslaught and hope for enough of a points advantage to be on top by round 5, or whenever the allotted time for the game runs out. Is anyone in this thread familiar enough with the competitive scene to know what kind of meta can be expected at Adepticon this year? Actually, no matter what we Bretonnians face, I'm afraid the only fruitful answer is more Grail Knights supported by an Enchantress. Another possibility in terms of included models is to bring cheap Endless Spells on big bases. My only reasoning behind this is the following: after using our superior speed to get to an unprotected objective, we could use a big Endless Spell to block the path of enemy units, to be able to keep the objective for one or two extra turns. Also, essential as they are, I've still found that it is actually a viable tactic to sacrifice a 5 wound hero and just charge it into enemy units in order to keep them from getting at our units holding objectives. Anyone else who has tactical advice about Bretonnia, feel free to chip in! Another discussion I think is worth having is about the King. Is it ever worth wasting 400 points on a single unit that is probably only worth half of that amount? Also, if the King is not the General, who is the second best option? I would say the Enchantress, but it's risky since she's pretty easy to snipe. Anyway, all feedback is welcome! See you guys around!

@Drakilian bring it on! I can never see enough Bretonnia pics so would like to see your models, both old and new. What type of Batallions were you thinking of? I guess you could bring a small Batallion or any order faction and then have a few Bretonnia units join them. But since I play strictly with Bretonnian units I’m not aware of a single one that is legal to use. This, and the ridiculously high point costs, are the main reasons why Bretonnia is in such dire need of an update. Nevertheless, by the Lady, I will keep trying to make them work!

Guys, I have to say that I love the direction this discussion has taken Sure, battlereports and optimizing lists can be fun, but I enjoy lore and armor talk way more! I agree with @Pellynor that the turn GW has taken the last 12 months is very promising. And a big thank you to @Drakilian for the Old World update. Never had the time to read those. All I know is from wiki articles. I encourage you both to bring even more attention to Bretonnia through MWG! Awesome stuff

@Pellynor that was an awesome read! I actually enjoyed this more than reading battle reports. It sounds like you definitely have enough of a story hammered out to build a really cool narrative campaign. I am not worried about what I wished for at all Keep it coming! I approve of the first two parts one hundred percent. If GW do decide to bring the Knights back, they will most definitely be thinking of you when they do so. I’ve always thought that Stormcast Eternals already are the majority of the Bretonnians, since Sigmar requires pure souls of heroes, and Bretonnian Knights are basically the epitome of just that. What do you guys think of the odds of GW ever releasing a new line of Free People models and somehow blessing us with Knights that don’t look overly German?

Love to hear about your lore, narrative ideas and names for your characters. Would also be cool to hear more about your campaign once it gets going Also: nice to see some ideas about extra rules for Bretonnia. If you were part of the discussion in another thread here on TGA about a Bretonnia Battletome, then do feel free to share any insights with the rest of us. @Drakilian I am getting hyped up for Bretonnian chivalry at Adepticon. Gonna hope for some epic coverage on your part once that goes down!

Yeah, since you are hanging out here at the Bretonnia discussion, we know that you are not a power gamer. But believe me, it feels really good having a wrecking ball of Grail Knights bounce from target to target (I actually happened to do that today, deleting a Frostlord on Thundertusk among other things) Regarding what you asked about earlier concerning the Damsel: I haven’t glued mine, so I can put her either on a horse or a Pegasus. So far I have never regretted going for the Pegasus option. As a matter of fact, her movement characteristic goes all the way up to 16, which makes her great for last minute objective snatching. @AaronWIlson welcome to the discussion. Looking forward to hearing about your experiences with Bretonnia (on the tabletop or otherwise). The only thing I would add to what you said is that it also unlocks those same spells to the enemy. @Drakilian, to further discuss Banishment, it is actually a somewhat dangerous spell to use since it could possible backfire due to the errata changes: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_malign_sorcery_errata_en.pdf The last thing you want to do is give the enemy the change to exploit your weaknesses and charge you where it hurts the most. And dude, if I lived in the US, and if it meant that you would become the best ambassador for Bretonnia this community has ever seen, then I would gladly go to Adepticon as your squire, and not even play in the tournament The squires in Total War Warhammar are pretty epic so I’d be happy to join their ranks!

I understand the points you make and will not hold your choices against you. There are more than one way to play any given army Regarding Adepticon: sounds awesome! And yeah, go for the most competitive approach possible, but above all, go in your epic armor! That, if anything, will bring attention to our beloved Bretonnia. You have it right! Since Bretonnia has literally zero in terms of special rules, you could theoretically bring the worst mismatch of order units conceivable The only reason I bring a 100% Bretonnian list to my games is due to lore and aesthetic reasons. To comment on your proposed list: since @Drakilian has already provided some feedback on the “allies”, and since your possible choices for non-Bretonnian units are countless, I will focus on the rest of the list and highlight the choices I like. What I definitely would keep if I were you:Mortal Realm: GhurKing on Hippogryph (400) - General, Legendary Fighter, Gryph-feather Charm Enchantress (160)Damsel (100)8 x Knights Errant (200)16 x Men At Arms (120)10 x Grail Knights (360)Chronomantic Cogs (60) This amounts to a total of 1400. Obviously you will have to add another battleline unit. Now, I am not saying that the other choices you had were bad, just that they aren’t staples. So basically you have 600 points to play around with as you wish. Maybe 200 points of Knights Errant, 360 points more of rending Grail Knights and another Endless spell for the last 40 points. Or only 180 points more of Grail Knights to free up space for another Enchantress or a melee hero of your choice. Good luck with your battles, no matter what approach you go for! 

@Drakilian First impression: list looks good. Additional thoughts: those are a lot of casters. Depending on what kind of objectives I was expecting to fight for, I might consider one more melee hero. As for your king, in spite of being expensive, I always bring him in 2000 point lists. But if you have access to the Mailign sorceries book, I would really consider giving him a better artifact. Personally I always liked the Gryph-Feather Charm. I have had my king survive the whole game many times, 100% thanks to this artefact. Finally, after having watched all your MWG battle reports I would like to give some feedback on those: you seem to have a good understanding of Bretonnia and basically play as optimally as is possible in terms of dishing out damage. I would consider playing more like a “coward” and simply running to snatch objectives! Bretonnia will rarely prevail in a pure slug fest. Have a good one!

For the lady!

@Drakilian that’s some interesting insight about the legends rules. I haven’t looked into them that much. How do you all feel about Bretonnia potentially getting a Legends compendium of their own? I’m torn because on the one hand I look forward to getting better warscrolls, but on the other hand I fear Bretonnia will forever be sidelined and excluded from all competitive play. Thank you for contributing to the thread Regarding what our Knights excel at, I would actually say that they excel at fighting units with a low total wound count (or heroes with a big enough base for at least half the Knights to get in range). The point I’m trying to make is that we need to wipe out units and be able to charge again, preferably every turn. I love narrative campaigns! So do publish more about it as it progresses. Also feel free to come here if you need input or want feedback on any ideas you have for the campaign. Cheers!

Thank you for sharing! Sounds like an interesting game I’ll try to get the time to watch it tonight. Regarding the changes you proposed earlier: they sound reasonable I believe your army will get at least a bit more competitive like that. And as @Lightbox said, if you know you will be playing with an opponent that accepts that you use a realm specific spell lore from the Malign Sorceries book, then consider a double Enchantress list. Looking forward from more reports from you

@Iggy Starhost and @VonSmall thank you for keeping the internering discussions going! Amazing! I actually read that you had got them commissioned painted and saw your list, and straight away got the feeling “this is the army from MiniWarGaming!” Welcome to this little corner of the internet! I was really happy to hear you actually took the time to make an account just to join us here And it’s pretty cool to have a war gaming celebrity among us! I love your list and the look of the army. If I could change anything I would get more Grail Knights and keep the battle line units at a minimum. Also, the Quicksilver Swords are quite inconsistent. For 20 points I would much rather have the Soulsnare Shackles to further increase the mobility advantage Bretonnia typically has (since probably 90 percent of the battles I win are won due to outmaneuver my enemy rather than tabling him). It would also be cool if you could share a bit of your experience playing at the MWG studio! Cheers!

I ageee with both these statements! Honestly I am starting to like conversions of SCE into Brets more and more 😁 There are some cool examples further up in this thread if you need inspiration! In other news my poor knights unfortunately got crushed by 13 Evocators today - not very attractive to write a battle report about 😛

Hi there! Your list looks quite strong by Bretonnian standards! My only concern is that you only have one viable objective grabbing hero. The Damsel has a 6+ save and 5 wounds.. So even though the Chronomantic Cogs are one of my favourites, you could consider dropping that, and the Damsel, to include another Enchantress. If you are determined to use endless spells, then maybe keep the cogs, add the Soulsnare Shackles and use a Noble Champion instead of the Damsel. I do realize the Knights will loose their re-roll so maybe Knights of the realm is another option (opting out of the Shackles to save those last 20 points). That Kickstarter sounds awesome! I, myself, have a long term project of making a converted Bretonnia army so I will definitely have to look into that. As for the King on Hippogryph, the obvious choice would be to use this guy: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-SE/Aventis-Firestrike-Magister-Of-Hammerhal-2018 I love that model! I’ve heard that some people dislike its face but since you would change that into an eagle head anyway, it doesn’t really pose a problem. Please keep us posted about any news on your project 😀 Sounds like it could turn out really cool!