Rors

Idolators do look really tempting this edition now actually. Iron gollems seems extra nice given a large unit can be teleported onto an objective then sit there with a rerollable 3+ save just using their own champions command without needing nurgle. I'll need to play around when I get home but I'm trying to work out what the best way to organize a defensive unit would be for minimum contact with anything that charges. I'm thinking maybe a star shape with large units might be possible to create shapes where it's impossible to pile in or fit many models. The more I think about how coherency the more I believe it's going to be something that seems simple but opens up extremely deep layers of strategy that can be unlocked.

II think they will be a lot better this edition. The move to smaller units and coherency rules are both buffs for chariots. They prefer to fight small units where their impact mortals are meaningful, there will be more of these in AoS 3. Coherency means single units can counter charge and only touch a single model in the back corner. Due to coherency, this will often mean only one model can fight back, making them significantly more powerful. This is a buff to all single units. For example, if you take two single units and charge them into a unit of 10 and only touch a single model in each corner, they won't be able to pile in to attack either. Chariots, like all single units, will get a huge benefit from this.

My main army is slaves to darkness and I'm really looking forward to how much better chariots will be. Chariots are great against small units and the new coherency rules means if you use them to counter charge a unit already bin combat you can position them to hit one model in the back corner. Chariot still does it's mortal wounds and all of its attacks but only one model will be able to fight back. Same goes for all monsters we have like mindstealers. Our cheap and small monsters still get a 3 inch range on stomp to, so you can sit behind a screen and do d3 mortals every charge phase. Our heros and their auras so synergise really well with the new edition.

Any clue as to what an 'enhancement' is?

I forgot to mention to additional weirdness you have your cav screens running sideways to significantly increase the space they cover.

They can be useful but I think it'll sometimes look fairly janky. For example you can use them as screens to replace the units like untamed beasts that need to be in coherency. A flanking charge where only a single knight/horsemen hit the side of something scary (rest in conga line) will mean only 2-3 models can attack you so it becomes a really effective way to pin threatening units down without loosing the chaff as quickly. It's jank that could already be done, it's just slightly better now.

I'm amazed they didn't mention how much better our demionrift is in 3rd. Darkfire demon rift is going to be very nasty given then it's twice as deadly with activation in every hero phase and is and now bound too. I wish the Ogroid guy had monster on his keywords though. We also have access to the mono God spells/prayers. I think the Tzeentch sigil is going to be fun. Now that it activates in every hero phase opening up some odd interactions like moving one of our own units d6 in the opponents hero phase.

Ahh, fair point. Still, it's probably worth while as an ability given how many units there are that are dependant on command abilities to pump damage. That being said, it also says "can't receive." Do you reckon that turns off all command abilities in the combat phase or ones given outsode that phase. Like if a command ability says "in the hero phase give +1 attack to X until end of turn" would roar actually do anything? Great to see this edition is already so clear with it's rules 😛

I think 12 gluttons is scary but they can only be in one place at a time and they'll be targeted by anything with range. Multiple units might give you more board control. Same goes for iron guts. A firebelly can create an aura of -1 which might be helpful to protect your units as they hit very hard but lack the armour to take many hits back. Could be worthwhile as an alternative to the hunter.

If you're okay buying second hand models there's likely going to be an increase in people off loading old armies with the start of 3rd to start something new/adapt to a new meta. You'll potential get a new army for a whole lot cheaper.

I think Slaves are getting a few boosts in AoS 3 compared to other factions simply because we have more hero and monster synergy than most and this is the hero and monster edition. Roar on monster's is huge. We'll easily swing combats we would have lost into combats we win through breaking enemy units. I think mindstealers become a lot better. Giving your opponent always strikes last AND no immunity to battle shock while also reducing bravery by 2 (not to mention we have other units that can reduce bravery) is a fairly decent combo for a mere 100 points! Demon princes now get look out sir too because they have less than 10 wounds.

I've been thinking about AoS 3 and the rumour that the board will shrink and I think it could create a window of opportunity for the thunderbellies to shine. Run and charge on mournfang within 12 of the board edge becomes way better if the size of the board shrinks.

Anyone tried big daddy Nagash? The faction bonus of spells going off twice on a natural 9+ seems like a good buff for him. He has access to the entire lore of death mages which seems the better spell set and harder set to access. + He becomes basically unkillable with the right combos in legion of blood. It's also tempting to think about him with blood knights or zombie dragons as core. If nothing else because I'm lazy and that's probably about as elite as an army can get

Assuming the opponent has zero screens and places their monsters close to each other sure... At those kind of points costs, and being a model that is pure damage focused, if he's not tearing apart high value targets asap, it's going to be really hard to get his value back in the game. All your opponent has to do is screen block, even with some units that aren't normally cost efficient screens. Turn one he won't be in combat, and it generally won't matter on the last turn. So basically he has 3 turns of combat to make himself worthwhile. This doesn't have to be purely in killed units as he also provides zoning (opponent won't put high value targets close to him and if he deleted a unit holding an objective they're worth more than just their points). I'd say at 700+ points, if there's no faction bonus, if the skill level is approximately the same between players, Kraggy will rarely be worthwhile. You're opponent basically has to make a mistake, otherwise they can just ignore him and he'll rarely kill enough to make up for his cost. If you think of his points as him killing that mcu of your army before the game, he'll generally do more damage to you than your opponent. I say this being one of the voices in favor of higher points range.. but 700+ with nothing else beyond the warscroll is a Timmy trap. One thing that occurred to me is that unlike most monster with that many wounds, he brackets really well. His main weapon and secondary weapon profiles don't degrade and the stuff that does degrade doesn't drop that badly.

Silver lining: by being ridiculously expensive you don't have to buy as many models. This means you can complete your destruction army sooner and move on to collecting an army from a real faction.

I think at 560 he'd be expensive but not unusable. Not something I'd take to a tournament if the goal was to win at any cost but possible viable with the right list, skill and maybe some luck. 600+ points and he really needs a faction mechanic from broken realms.

560 seems reasonable to me but who knows, sometimes it feels like they Spin a wheel for points costs.

I think in something like a taker tribe having something that can threaten damage dealers adds something sore needed to a list that otherwise stands there and takes punches hoping survive long enough to win on points. +1 ld could be relevant for a unit of mancrushers as well. In all probability, unless he's ridiculously cheap or gets destruction faction buffs he's not going to be a tournament winning warscroll.. Something like a pre-game move for grand alliance destruction when he's there would go a long way.

Running 40+ sentinels isn't competitive. It'll win games, but you're not competing, you're not making any tactical choices vs your opponent. It also looses against certain builds simply through rock paper scissors mechanics. This is an example of bad game design by GW. It's not the standard for competitive games it's the benchmark for poorly written rules and players who like winning without investment of skill or enjoyment by the opponent and even then it doesn't do well in a competitive scene because it folds to alpha strikes or buids that counter it's shooting phase. You're clearly a skilled player who goes to tournaments and does well, surely you'd want a game where YOU get to play and win, not one where everyone be takes auto-picks that requires zero skill development

I think what makes a unit like this so heavily debated for points costs is how skewed he is. On one hand, it's been pointed out that a couple of screens could make him near useless, two units of untamed beasts is only 140 points. On the other hand he can potentially one shot models like negash and Archaon and will auto-delete most non-god units. The point about stonehorns having dual role of hammer and objective holder is fair and not something Krag does. Krag is 100% a pure bully unit. For this reason, his value is going to be tied to what else is out on the table with him. If there's a way in the army that mitigates screens, gets him extra pile ins or activations, or generally supports him to do what you want him to, he's going to need to be expensive because otherwise he'll pretty much always kill more than he costs regardless of player skill. If there's no support, you can bring his points down because it's going to be harder for him to earn his points back. On the note of Gotrek, he's movement 4, you could double his durability and damage and he'd still be bad because hes such a struggle get where he needs to be and he's power projection is so small that he doesn't even effectively zone. M10, even without fly, makes Krag better than Gotrek. If I had Krag and my opponent puts down Gotrek, I'm going to have a lot easier time pressuring his force and avoiding his pressure that vice versa. That said, at 360 points, basically no player skill is required to make him worth while because he is practically guaranteed to earn his points and if he doesn't your opponent will have paid an opportunity cost to prevent that (ie. Key models stay out of his threat zone) is also worth while for Krag. At about 500 points without support, he's value will come down to the skill of each player and the context of the game, which is what you want in a competitive game. At 360 you put him on the table and push him forward and no tactical play is needed to make him worthwhile.

That's a fair argument about counting as 10 models on objectives. Mawtribes are definitely a mid tabels army, but when they rank high you can basically guarantee there's a frostlord on stonehorn in the list. I agree weapons profiles aren't the most important factor in AoS, it comes down to the units role. How useful Krag will be will depend on what support he gets in broken realms. His unit role is a bully unit that clears objectives and projects power. How useful that is will depend on what else is in an army with him.

There's a difference between units archtypes that counter other units and poor game design. Some of those examples are poor game design. Poor game design isn't the benchmark for what a competitive unit should look like. If you want to play rock paper scissors, save your self a lot of time and go play rock paper scissors. The game will always have ballance issues but why would you want the game to be worse? Also I disagree that GW has no interest in improving their game system, especially now that they're promoting a competitive tournament circuit that's GW branded. It's in their interest to improve the game and avoid negative play experiences created through poorly thought-out warscrolls. Of course none of this means Kraggy won't be incorrectly pointed, but the discussion is about where the correct points would be for competitive play (with the tangent that OP units aren't a benchmark for competitive games - they're the bench mark for lists that win without much competition, if we followed that path, every new release should be zero points because that's maximized 'competitiveness').

As mentioned earlier, at 400 points you can take a frostlord on stonehorn with is one of the most points efficient warscrolls for a monster in the game. People win tournaments off the back of stonehorn frostlords. This guy is objectively better than a stonehorn. I agree that he's easily screened. In an army that can't support him, he's probably a trap to take. That factors into his costs but you also need to factor in that he can delete a vast majority of units very quickly. You don't bring his price down because he's easily countered you build synergies into his faction (which I strongly think we'll see in the broken realms book) that create tactically meaning options for the game. Stuff like Sentinel spam is trash and creates scissors paper rock game and shouldn't be used as a basis for ballanced points or game design.

Gotrek is movement 4. After a certain damage cap you're deleting pretty much anything and it's all about increasing survivability, movement and activations. Kraggy is movement 10. The old Gotrek combo was throw cogs at him, he didn't really get much else with synergies. Kraggy + cogs is waaaaay better. Even without extra support (which he is obviously getting) putting him at the 500 point mark is ludicrous. Everyone is still complaining that he lacks synergy when his release is coming with an entire rule book centered around him that they haven't seen. I'd wait until I see his broken realms rules before commenting on how synergistic he is.

At 540 points he's insanely OP. A frostlord is generally considered S tier in the monster catagory and goes for about 400. This big boy would one shot a frostlord no issue. He'll be in the 600-800 range and obviously his broken realms book will add support pieces/a new faction mechanic for him.