l1censetochill

Given the low model counts in our units (huge disadvantage in taking objectives) and gigantic base sizes, I think realistically we would need a universal +1 Attack and improved profiles (either 3+/3+ or 1 rend on Liberators, for example) on all models to have even decent offensive output. An allegiance ability that's in the same stratosphere as what the Bonereapers get, like +1 blanket save and +1 rend, would actually make our units formidable enough to be scary without needing to rely on activation tricks and Gavriel. If we're not changing profiles, Liberators at 80, plus a max unit of 20/280, might actually be pretty good. A max size of 30 for models on 40mm bases is comically stupid. LCoSD at 460 would be far more palatable and might actually see play in some lists. Drakesworn should probably be 380 or 400. Lord-Celestant on Dracoth should be like 180 at most. While we're making wishlists, basically every hero we've got other than the Relictor and Azyros should have 20 points taken off their cost at a minimum, while some of the named characters are so over-costed I can't even comprehend what the designers were thinking. Vandus should be 200. Tauralons are like 80 points too expensive. Sequitors should never have gone up from 120, and Evocators and Ballistas were completely fine at 200 and 100. Judicators should be 130 maximum. Every single Paladin unit is complete garbage, and should have their points reduced by 40 across the board. Dracolines should be 240. Those costs would actually be aggressive enough that you might actually see non-shooting Stormcast lists competing for top tables sometimes. Edit: another thought that occurred to me below, is that one option to improve our warscrolls would be to increase the reach of most of our melee weapons to 2", and make the long-reach ones like Grandstaves 3". As it stands, we pretty much can't take big units because we can never get enough guys into combat.

Don't get me wrong, the Stardrake is certainly a strong model in a vacuum. The question is, as part of a Stormcast army, is it 560 points good? Is it going to win more games for you than 20 Sequitors and a Lord-Castellant, or 9 Longstrikes and a unit of Aetherwings? In an army that's already so low model count, it's hard to justify taking it when it's mostly a utility piece that, despite being a 560 point model, still needs support (Lord-Castellant, for example) to do its job. And really, one of the big issues the Stardrake has is nothing to do with the unit's warscroll. The problem is that the Stormcast allegiance rules, synergies, and general way you're forced to build the army doesn't complement the Stardrake. The Terrorgheist is a great counter-example there - it's not just the warscroll that makes the Terrorgheist strong, it's that the Gristlegore allegiance abilities let it fight first and attack twice each turn, making an already-good model straight up ridiculous. Combine that with the availability of cheap battleline and double caster wizards that can also summon units and you've got a cohesive army. But the Stardrake... outside of just being a big, tanky model with decent shooting, we don't really have tools to build around it. Staunch Defender gets it to a 2+, sure, but it's also a a model that ideally wants to be moving and charging, and consistently keeping other units wholly within 9" is going to be tough. The Command Ability is okay, but Dracoths are so expensive that if you take a Stardrake and 6 Desolators you've spent 1160 points on 7 bodies. +1 to cast for friendly wizards within 18 sounds nice, but we have no access to double-casting wizards, the ones we do have are all too expensive, and our spell lores suck. So it's not necessarily a problem with the Stardrake. It's a problem with Stormcast as a whole not really being able to make good use of the things the Stardrake offers. Funnily enough, I do think Stardrakes might have a route to being reasonably competitive... in Cities lists. Tempest's Eye has an artifact that can give a Stardrake run & charge and always fights first, which combined with +3" move on turn 1 makes it an actual alpha strike threat. Living Cities can just give the Templar the Iron Oak Artisan command trait to make it always have a 2+ save and +1 to wound, deepstrike it, then use the bow attack to give it a full move with the command ability to almost guarantee charges. Combine that with the availability of actual good, cheap bodies in Cities lists, and you might have something that can keep pace with the stronger armies. I think the model just fits in better with those armies than it goes in Stormcast, which is sad.

Yeah, I figured as much when making the lists - the Stardrake is an absolutely amazing model, and I'll definitely be getting one to paint it, but it's sadly nowhere near worth the points it costs. Which is pretty silly when you compare it to what other armies can get: Ghoul King on Terrorgheist that activates first for 420, or Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon for 440, both of which are so much better it's comical. Or now you've got 20-wound, 2+ save, 36" buff bubble Katakros for 500. Insane. Maybe if we had access to cheap, worthwhile bodies it could actually be competitive some day, but oh well.

My first time posting in one of these, but I figure why not? Now that my first 2k points are done, I could use some extra motivation to keep hobbying. I've got an unfortunate amount of travel happening in November, so that will definitely slow my painting down quite a bit. However... For the month, my pledge is to finish painting at least one squad of Liberators and my Lord-Relictor. I'll also get a head start on priming (won't be able to do it outdoors for much longer here!). So I'll build my second squad of Liberators , another Celestar Ballista + crew, Astreia Solbright, and at least 3 endless spell models and get them primed by the end of the month so I can paint them when I'm back. Plans might change depending on whether or not I end up acquiring additional models or not. We'll see. I think that's enough to be starting with, though!

Only quoted the first list but wanted to comment on all the others - much as I was interested in the heated (and still ongoing) debate about Longstrike range, hopefully some list discussion and dissection can turn things in a more productive direction, as it's starting to feel like everyone is just talking in circles. My first question on the lists you're proposing is: what Stormhost are you planning on running, and how do you envision the list working? I'm still a relative newbie compared to some here, but I feel like the list is trying to do too much of everything, and as a result is lacking focus. You've got the Templar and Desolators, which are good mobile anvils that are quite killy, but not good enough to win games without serious support. You've got some shooting from Judicators and Longstrikes, but not enough to make a real dent in enemy armies, and Judicators just don't seem like they do enough for their points period. Aetherwings are only really useful when you want to protect a big unit of Longstrikes, but will be pretty useless standing next to 3. And you've got the Incantor with Dais Arcanum and Maelstrom, which feel like they're just tacked on for points. The Incantor is useful, but pretty much only for the auto-unbind. On their own, they're not a good enough spellcaster to make endless spells worth it unless you're taking Everblaze Comet and deploying them out of unbind range. And even then, you're not going to have a magic phase that can compete with any of the real casting-heavy army. And that's how I'd view this list - probably fun, and might steal a game or two, but instead of trying to do a little bit of everything and ending up mediocre, it's better to commit fully to one thing and build around it. If you want the Stardrake and some Dracoths on the board, I'd look at one of the following lists instead: ***** Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Anvils of the HeldenhammerLeadersDrakesworn Templar (460)- General- Storm Lance- Trait: Deathly Aura- Artefact: Soulthief- Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Relictor (100)Lord-Castellant (120)Battleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits2 x Concussors (240)12 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (680)3 x Aetherwings (50)3 x Aetherwings (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 103 ***** This one is simple - the Templar is a pure distraction Carnifex that you buff with the Castellant and hurl across the table at the opponent, forcing them to deal with it. The Concussors serve a similar purpose and can go in with the Templar or do their own thing, slowly chewing through units while disrupting pile-ins and pinning units were possible. The rest of the list is standard Shootcast - shoot twice with the Longstrikes every turn and hope you take off enough models to get the win. Probably not as efficient as a list that replaces the Templar, 3 Longstrikes and the Concussors with an Azyros and 6 Desolators, but it could still work... and while it's probably an edge case that you're unlikely to use due to generating only 1CP per turn, I like the idea of using the Anvils command ability on the Stardrake to let it pile in and swallow 3 extra dudes during the hero phase. Just for funsies. I tried to come up with another army more focused on the Stardake and Desolator synergy, and came up with the following: ***** Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)- General- Celestine Hammer- Trait: Staunch Defender- Artefact: Ignax's Scales- Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Azyrite HaloBattleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits6 x Desolators (600)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 99 ***** I feel a lot less confident in this one, but it's what I came up with. Basically, your Stardrake and Desolators in this list, powered up with the Lord-Celestant's command ability and Staunch Defender, are actually pretty scary, so they can take up central position, spit mortal wounds at range, threaten objectives and dare the opponent to charge them. If you need to split them up, the Desolators can still get to a 2+ save with the Castellant's lantern. The Raptors with Hurricanes are there to deepstrike into positions and shoot down screens/thin out hordes for the big boys. I'd usually prefer to use Ballistas for this purpose, but points are already very tight in this list and you're always going to be so light on bodies due to the Stardrake + Desolators that I felt the Hurricane Raptors made more sense. Hope these list ideas help, or at least inspire some thought/discussion. I definitely don't think they're great or super-competitive, but in a list where we definitely want to take the Stardrake and some Dracoths they're the best I could come up with in, like, 40 minutes of brainstorming while half-watching Netflix. Would love to hear other peoples' thoughts - "listbuilding challenges" like this where we're forcing ourselves to take certain off-meta units and make the most of them are some of my favorite things to think about in AOS!

Just making sure I haven't missed something here - based on what I've seen/read, I'm not sure how you buff the Mortrek Guard to 2+ saves. The Petrifex Elite allegiance gives army-wide +1, but Katakros's +1 save bubble only works on Mortis Praetorians, so you can't stack them. Is there another source of +1 save I've missed? Even if they don't stack, I agree that they'll be a very durable infantry block. But not completely invulnerable, especially against MWs or high rend shooting. I agree with basically everything you said, particularly that the OBR power level - at least on paper - feels about where the power level of AOS should be. But compared to the top of top tier lists, I don't think they're frighteningly overpowered. Low A tier to high B tier, certainly, with some excellent matchups and some that will be challenging. I'm interested to see how often Katakros is included in lists, as he's a very powerful support piece but also very expensive in an already-expensive army. And while it may be hit-or-miss, I do think his ability to steal enemy Command Points on a 4+ has the potential to hurt enemy lists that have the potential to be problematic matchups for OBR that are CP-dependent, like Hallowheart or (to a lesser extent) Shootcast.

If you want a generic, well-rounded Sacrosanct list that folds in a little bit of everything, I put together the following as my first Stormcast list after buying Soul Wars: ----- Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)- General- Trait: Staunch Defender- Artefact: Ignax's Scales- Spell: Azyrite HaloLord-Castellant (120)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Lightning BlastLord-Ordinator (140)Battleline10 x Sequitors (260)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite GreatmacesUnits5 x Evocators (220)- 5x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)- 2x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial BladesWar MachinesCelestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 114 ----- It's not a very competitive list, but if you're playing friendlies at your local store it can hold up fine for the most part. It's pretty good for starting out, too, as it does a bit of everything and is active in all phases. I actually played my first game with the Cleansing Phalanx battalion in place of the third Celestar Ballista (I didn't have it painted yet), but I think the third Ballista is probably better. With that list now fully painted, I'm pivoting toward the following: ----- Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Celestial VindicatorsLeadersLord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)- General- Trait: Single-minded Fury- Artefact: Stormrage Blade- Spell: Celestial Blades- Mount Trait: Pride LeaderKnight-Heraldor (100)Lord-Ordinator (140)Knight-Incantor (140)- Spell: Lightning BlastBattleline5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite GreatmacesUnits6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)- 4x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial BladesWar MachinesCelestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsChronomantic Cogs (80)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 103 ----- There are definitely other (and arguably better) ways to build a Dracoline list, but I'm going for this one mostly because it doesn't use many new models compared to what I'm already running (just 3 more Dracolines, a Knight-Heraldor, the Cogs, and the Astreia Solbright model for a general). I think most Dracoline lists use Liberators to cover battleline, which lets them sneak in a few more points elsewhere, but I think this list is fine overall and will be a fun change of pace from what I posted above. Hope this helps! Edit: To give credit where it's due, and to direct anyone interested in Dracoline lists, I should thank @PJetski and point out that he's posted a guide to how he likes to build them here. It was written last year, well before the point changes in the 2019 GHB, but it's still helpful as a reference.

A fair point - I hadn't considered it purely because Precision Aspect feels like it will be so completely necessary for the Stalkers to be good. A 12 wound, 3 model unit with a 4+ (or even 3+) save isn't something anyone is going to take as an anvil, but their standard attack profile - 5 attacks at 3/3/-1/1 (and a single model at 3 attacks, 3/3/-2/2) - just... isn't very good, assuming they're costed in the range of other elite infantry. Basically, even if you're re-rolling saves (which ain't helping against any shooting, and which you won't be able to activate on your opponent's turn if against a unit that fights at the beginning of the combat phase), 4 wound models aren't going to hold up against much long-term. But that's okay, because in Precision Aspect, the Stalkers become an absolutely brutal hammer unit - if you can get them into the enemy, they'll chainsaw through stuff like Endrinriggers on PCP (but they're on bigger bases, looks like 50s, with 1" reach, so going too big will have a downside). I still think they're good, they're just not as overbearingly powerful as I was expecting... which is a good thing!

I'm not an expert strategist/analyst or anything, and until we see all the allegiance abilities and units together on the table it's hard to know how it will work out, but overall I'm not blown away by the Bonereapers warscrolls here. They look decent, but not as good as I'd imagined. Motrek Guard are probably the best of the lot, and they're pretty good but not incredible. 2 attacks, 3/4/-1/1 (or 3/4/-/1 with spears for 2" reach) per model is basically average offensive output, with natural 6s causing 2 hits. Offensively, they're okay. 4+ saves (3+ in Petrifex), re-rolling when you use a command ability during the combat phase, then a 6+ FNP, so defensively they'll be very good, especially if they get re-rolls. We have yet to see just how many command points the faction will be able to generate, but presumably they're going to need a lot (especially if they're running multiple blocks of these). Just how tanky they can be will come down to how often they can activate the ability. 4" move is very slow, though. It'll come down to points, but these look like a very nice anvil to make up the backbone of an army. Stalkers look more fragile than I imagined. For an elite unit that comes in 3s, 4 wounds on a 4+ save with no re-rolls isn't much to write home about. Even on a 3+ in Petrifex, they're going to die pretty fast if they get charged by something serious (or against many units that can fight first). And with 6" move, they're not going to zip across the board. They'll certainly kill stuff on the charge, though, so re-rolling charges could be helpful (again, this army is going to need a lot of command points). Point cost on these guys will have a big influence. You're almost certainly going to want to run them in units of 6. Morghasts haven't changed, so they're still not good. Bummer, as the models are awesome. Vokmortian is... interesting. He's fragile, slow, and his abilities mostly rely on him being in melee range, which is bad. His 5+ to force a model within 3" not to attack him is fun fluff, but not reliable enough to be useful, and the bravery debuff is... whatever. The spell will, I'm sure, ruin the day for someone somewhere by outright killing Morathi or something, but without the ability to extend the range it's almost never going to come into play. He's clearly meant to be very gimmicky, which some will love, but really his value is just being a double caster/double unbinder with enemy wizards getting -1 to unbind his spells. He's hard to judge until we see the full spell lore, but a double caster/double unbinder is almost always useful. So yeah, interesting. For all the garment rending people are doing over how OP the Bonedaddies look, the warscrolls don't look crazy. I'd say they're above average. I'd be happy to hear other thoughts, of course. Entirely possible I'm missing things.

The bird doesn't increase the range of the spell or allow the caster to cast through it like a spellportal, though. It just gives line of sight. So you still need to be in range, it just means the opponent can't hide their valuable unit behind terrain or whatever, which is often not that hard to work around anyway.

Well, as far as the Stormcast box goes - a Soulstrike brotherhood battalion is a Ballista, two units of Castigators and two units of Vanguard-Hunters, so it'll probably include some or all of those. I'd assume based on the name there will also be a Lord-Exorcist, They also seem to like putting in a centerpiece model or one of the flashier cavalry units, so I could see them maybe putting in a unit of Dracoths, Dracolines, or Vanguard-Palladors. Or maybe the Celestant-Prime instead? Either way, likely to include a lot of the least-played models in the faction. Nighthaunt will obviously include Kurdoss. I feel like based on what they've put in boxes before, and just considering the looks of Kurdoss, the box will have some Hexwraiths, some Bladegheists Revenants, and maybe some Dreadscythe Harridans... plus the obligatory unit of Glavewraith Stalkers, because GW insists on putting them in every Nighthaunt thing they do, no matter how useless they are. It wouldn't surprise me too much if the Gitz box had the Mangler Squigs, but the name, combined with the fact that Looncurse was all squigs, makes me think this might have Troggoths instead for some reason. Probably the Fungoid Cave-Shaman, the Dankhold Troggoth, some Sneaky Snufflers... beyond that less sure. Maybe Rockguts or Fellwaters, a unit of Stabbas/Shootas, and some Fanatics? Seems like that'd add up to about the right value. I agree that it'd be weird to make a Pestilens box when the Start Collecting already has basically all of their units covered. Maybe this is more of a mix of Verminus and Moulder (Verminus = War, Moulder = Swarm)? Like a Hellpit Abomination, some Giant Rats/Rat Ogors, a Clawleader, some Stormvermin and some Clanrats? Seems a bit boring, but not sure what else it could be, given that they're already done both Pestilens and Skryre. Interested to see if I got close with any of them. As someone who's primarily collecting and playing Stormcast, I really hope I'm wrong - the box I'm envisioning doesn't seem very appealing, and it would suck if that were the Order box being offered when a Cities box would be so much more appealing/useful to a lot of people.

So basically, you're making a roundabout argument that "win percentage isn't only due to mechanics," and that non-competitive players choosing suboptimal lists leads to inflated winrates for certain factions and not others. While there may be some truth to that, I do think that actually playing/watching the game, for most people, should help to discern that HoS and DoK's winrate isn't purely due to their opponents playing poorly, but rather the combination of their mechanics and the nature in which their armies are designed and intended to be built. There shouldn't be any mystery why DoK was powerful in 1.5 and 2.0, as it's one of the most straightforward armies and lists in the game. The reason its winrate was so high, and remains high even a year after release, is because it's so hard to ****** up - you put as many Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaughter on the table as possible around a Cauldron and two Hag Queens, point-and-click your strongest buffs onto your biggest block, then run and charge them into the enemy army while stacking extra attacks and delete everything on the table. It's not complicated. While there is still a skill gradient in terms of deployment, target prioritization, and building out the last ~200 points of the list, the reason it had such a high winrate was because even a new player could use that strategy and annihilate a large portion of available armies, which simply didn't have the tools to compete with what they were doing regardless of player skill. The only reason their winrate has declined is because Fights First/Fights Last can stop them in their tracks (and other horde armies like Skaven got better rules). Slaanesh is in a similar position in the meta right now. It's a very straightforward army to play - you spam Keepers alongside an Epitome and Enrapturess, run everything straight at the opponent and start deleting everything within arms' reach with Locus an d double pile-ins while stockpiling depravity, and summon more troops or more heroes as needed. Depravity means that there's a bit more to think about than there was with DoK, but it's still a gameplan that's hard to ****** up if you build the list properly. Depravity points build up so quickly, even if you're not killing enemies with multiple wounds, that even if the enemy manages to kill a Keeper or two you can pretty much always summon them back. And much like DoK, the majority of armies simply don't have any tools to compete with what Slaanesh can do - unless your army has enough shooting/magic damage to kill every Slaanesh hero in a single turn, they will always generate enough depravity to summon more. There's no real viable counterplay to that, because there is no mechanical counter to summoning currently in the rules.

Yeah, I'm picking up on this too - it's clearly a language barrier issue, which is understandable you consider it's a discussion featuring a bunch of tricky rules jargon. @Raffonerd Basically, what they're saying is that the Aetherwings give you two options to block a charge from Eels, and between them they should never be able to get into your Longstrikes in a single turn. You get to move the Aetherwings 2d6 at the beginning of the opponent's Charge phase, so they make the move before the enemy can make any charge moves. The outcomes are either: 1) You roll 2d6, and it's high enough to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the Eels. If the Aetherwings move within 3" of the Eels, the Eels are "pinned" and can't charge anything. They have to wait until the Combat phase to pile in and attack the Aetherwings. 2) You roll 2d6, and it's not enough to get the Aetherwings within 3" of the Eels. In this case, you move them back, closer to the Longstrikes, and either land them more than 12" away from the Eels (so they can't declare any charges, because there aren't any units within 12") or, if that's not possible, land them in a way that ensures that there's not enough room between your screen and the Longstrikes to allow the Eels to fly over the Aetherwings and land in position to hit the Longstrikes. In basically every battle report or write up I've seen on Anvilstrike, it's emphasized that Aetherwing placement and usage is the #1 key to making the list work - and it's not hard to see why. They're a finesse unit, and their rules are unusual enough that a lot of people won't even understand how they work/why you're allowed to do what you're doing with them. Long story short, I've gotta get practicing!

They didn't get into it too much on the video itself, but the gist was simply that because Slaanesh has an inflated winrate against most every other faction, and because GTs typically match up armies of similar records, you get a lot of Slaanesh mirrors in rounds 3, 4, and 5 - and naturally, whenever you have a mirror match, one Slaanesh wins and one loses, thus lowering the faction winrate toward 50%. As for why DoK didn't have the same issue, they didn't go into it and I'm not certain - they did mention that there were far fewer GTs to collect stats from last year (the number this year is double, over the same time period), so sample size and a low percentage of DoK mirrors in those particular tournaments might have something to do with it. It'd be a good question to ask if one were watching live, though!

So, given Slaanesh's 67% winrate (stated in the video to be 75-80% when mirror matches are removed) at 6% representation, would you agree the stats are indicative of issues with the faction's mechanics? I'd actually be quite interested to see what the winrates would look like if Slaanesh dropped to 55% or so. Your last point is actually brought up in the video as well, and I found it interesting - the meta % lost by DoK and LoN since late 2018 is almost exactly the % that was gained by Skaven and Slaanesh. So yes, a solid proportion of those players most interested in chasing the meta are now on Slaanesh.

I'd like to see that too! Because knowing that mirror matches are included in the data raises other questions, as well. For example, Stormcast - 10% of the meta, 45% winrate. But in theory, if you remove the mirror matches (which would be somewhat common, logically, given their representation and the nature of Swiss pairings), the win rate would actually be lower, because every mirror match brings the faction win rate closer to 50%. Same thing would apply to Skaven, but in the other direction.

If you watch the video, LLV (the guy who did the collecting/compiling/analysis of the data) clarifies that if you remove the mirror matchups (which are extremely common at GTs in rounds 3-5 due to Swiss pairings) from the Slaanesh winrate data, the win % is actually between 75 and 80%. So the winrate against other factions is significantly higher. It's weird, but the fact that Slaanesh so rarely loses to anything in rounds 1 & 2 of a GT actually lowers its winrate, because you get an unusually disproportionate number of mirror matches later in the tournament.

@PJetski Given where the discussion has gone, I'd be very interested to hear more from you on how you tend to play Anvilstrike lists in the current meta - I apologize, as I know you've done a fair few write-ups and tournament reports in the past, but analysis from players who have been running the list successfully isn't always easy to come by. I know smart Aetherwing usage is pretty much the make-or-break factor in determining your results, but any other info you could provide on how you tend to approach deployment would be super helpful. It sounds like when you're up against anyone with a potential deepstrike, you favor a very castle-y deployment which heavily screens your Longstrikes - would that change much against a fast alpha-strike army like Slaanesh/DoK, or against a horde army like Skaven/Gitz? Which units do you tend to keep on the board, and which do you tend to keep in reserve for a deepstrike? Also, having asked that, I'm curious - it sounds like when played well, Anvilstrike is a good counter to a lot of the stronger meta choices (Slaanesh, FEC, DoK). What would you say our worst matchups are? My instincts tell me it would be either hordes that you just don't have enough damage to whittle down in time. Maybe Fyreslayers, just because they can tank so much damage (at least, until you can kill all their heroes)? Thanks for any advice, your willingness to share your experience is much appreciated by the newer members of the community!

I think it probably speaks to people's opinions on Stormcast as an army and the people who play them - in their minds, "Stormcast" = starter army that people only play because they're new to the game and Stormcast are available, cheap, and easy to play, and therefore "Stormcast player" = newbie who doesn't know what they're doing. Thus, they view a loss to a Stormcast player as an indictment of their own abilities. Because surely, no competent general would lose a game to a Stormcast player of all people, would they? I wouldn't worry too much about it, honestly - we're still in an okay place competitively, and on the whole we get more updates than just about any other army. There's probably a decent chance that once Mawtribes, KO and Seraphon get their new books (along with Bonereapers and 1-2 more new factions), we'll get another re-release or a new Chamber or something next year. The Stormcast power level is always in flux. We suck for a while, then Vanguard Wing comes out and Stormcast is broken. Then GW nerfs it, and we're bad again. Then we get the Sacrosanct units, and we're suddenly too good. Then a bunch of other factions get new books that are way better, and we're middle of the road. A year from now, who knows? We might be on top of the world, or completely in the dumpster. Might as well just ride the wave.

Opinions will vary from person to person of course, but there's a "Recent Tournament Results" topic in this forum that can be useful for getting an idea of what armies are winning the big tournaments most often. It also shifts quite frequently - in particular, some armies dropped pretty hard after the 2019 GHB was dropped, so the actual statistics available are limited. It's also worth keeping in mind that some "armies," when ranked in a tier list based on tournament performance, are really only referring to one or two specific lists (Changehost, Shootcast) while basically any other list the faction could produce would be ranked lower. With that said, I think a reasonable tier list would look something like this (please don't kill me guys, I'm not a tournament player - I'm just a guy extrapolating recent rankings as a fun exercise!): S Tier: Slaanesh A Tier: Skaven, FEC, Fyreslayers, Tzeentch B Tier: DoK, IDK, Gloomspite, Stormcast, Khorne, LoN C Tier: Sylvaneth, Nighthaunt, Nurgle D Tier: Seraphon, KO, BoC F Tier: BCR, Gutbusters, StD Hard to rank the Orruk Warclans or Cities books yet, since there's so little data to go on and Cities, in particular, could be built like a million different ways. Ironjawz had a very strong showing at Justice League GT this past weekend, but nobody's really had time to play with or against them yet. It wouldn't surprise me if Warclans and Cities both end up producing A tier armies once people have had a chance to build and playtest them, which I would consider a great success. Happy to hear other peoples' opinions on my rankings, of course - by no means would I say it's definitive or anything, just something I threw together in 15 minutes while procrastinating on my painting.

Probably a bit soon to jump to the conclusion that the Boneboys will be that busted, especially given that we know so little. They might be strong, but they might also suck. At least wait until they're on the table to pass judgment. I seem to recall a month or two back when the rules for a certain fan-favorite Duardin model were released, and the hivemind collectively concluded that he was so OP, so unfair, so completely busted, that the game was completely ruined and there was no point in ever playing AOS again, ever. And yet, wouldn't you know it, in the time since, not a single list featuring Gotrek has even sniffed a top table at a GT. Turns out there's only so much you can gather from reading a warscroll, and the reality of what a unit can actually do on the table often doesn't live up to your expectations.

The part that makes it worse, in my opinion, is that while Anvilstrike is a fairly strong list (but far from 'amazing' - I mean, I check out GT reports and lists regularly and you rarely see more than one Stormcast player in the top 15-20 in major events), it's also very un-fun to play against. And yeah, you can play other lists that are somewhat decent (Sacrosanct-heavy, Dracolines, etc.) and have fun, but if your local stores have a lot of players who are competitive, or who field top tier armies (Slaanesh, Fyreslayers, DoK, FEC, Skaven) on the regular, you basically need to go shooting heavy just to avoid getting blown out. And that primes a negative feedback loop about Stormcast: people are already conditioned to hate Stormcast (whether because they're the punching bag for Fantasy players who hated the AOS transition, or because they're space marines, or because they get too many models/releases, or because people assume they're OP, or whatever other reason), then they play against them and the game isn't fun, which reinforces their hatred of Stormcast. That leads to more complaining about them, which conditions more new players to hate Stormcast... and you get the idea. It sucks. I'd like to have a viable list that isn't also a huge negative play experience for my opponent, but right now the vast majority of our units just aren't up to snuff against the armies with newer books.

I don't think that's the reason for the change, as for us it really changes nothing. It still activates Lightning Arc after they've been picked to fight for the first time once per phase, meaning it works once in the Hero Phase then works again in the Combat Phase - in an Anvils army, you still get it twice like you used to. I'm pretty sure the reason for the change is to prevent Evocators from being too good in a Hammerhal army, since they have the ability that lets their units pile in and attack again at the end of the Combat Phase. Even if they could get Lightning Arc twice in the Combat Phase, I don't necessarily think it would be that OP - at least by the standards of what a lot of armies do all the time with activation BS and double pile ins - but I'm guessing that's why they made it. This change avoids giving Evocators any chance of doing something that could be perceived as OP, and preemptively prevents any outraged screeching on the part of people who hate Stormcast in general and Evocators in specific.

Haven't seen a lot of SCE lists with Gotrek, and honestly I can understand why - in an army that already lacks bodies due to elite, over-costed units, we just can't afford to spend that many points on a single model. We also often struggle with mobility (Scions and Relictor are all that keep us in the game, really) and chaff screens, which Gotrek ain't gonna help with. While I don't doubt there are fun SCE armies out there with Gotrek, I just don't really feel like he does enough to help us win. He's a tough, single-model anvil, and is super killy, but has such a limited threat range that it's not hard for a decent opponent to just zone him out for a good chunk of the game. We've already got cheaper, similarly-durable anvil options that put more bodies on the table, and between our hammer units and shooting we don't lack killing power. When we lose, we usually lose on objectives (and to Slaanesh, but that's a whole other subject). Gotrek is unlikely to change that. Others may disagree, and I'm certainly no master strategist/listbuilder, so there may be builds I'm not thinking of that would be great. But personally, if I wanted to spent 500+ points on a single model, I'd probably just go with a Stardrake with Ignax Scales over Gotrek. Sure, he's nowhere near as killy, but at least he's got the mobility to get into the opponent's face on turn 1 and pin/body block units to keep them off objectives for a couple turns.

There should be two grandstaves in the box - one that can be held by the female model, and one that's held by one of the male models. It's labelled as an 'aetherstave' on the box, and is held by the alternative assembly Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline model, but it's functionally identical to a grandstave.