Thamalys

Places of Arcane Power is one example - but it’s the only one I can think about as of now, so it might be the only one... don’t have the GHB2019 at hand as we speak...

Unless explicitly instructed otherwise within a specific battleplane (e.g. Places of Arcane Power), you are most definitely allow to capture objectives via a retreat move. It is a very powerful mechanics that not enough players, in my opinion, either leverage or plan against.

I can’t really tell wether that would work, but I’d be up for trying I think - a very different gaming systems from what we have now... any examples of tabletop games that work that way? I’d be interested in checking them out...

Yes, that's probably true. In fact, I'd like to clarify that I'm not claiming that the the double turn is the best bit of AoS, nor the most fun - I doubt anyone would be so masochistic to claim that. I'm simply saying that I don't find the double turn to be a synonym for a lost game, and that its existence provides an opportunity to engage with a particular strategic aspect of the game. Just one aspect, folks: No, that's not what I implied - and if it came across like that, I do apologise. I am a mediocre player who however is ok with the double turn mechanics, that's all - perhaps I'm ok with it because I am a mediocre player in the first place, I don't know. Yes, I agree. However: Well, but that's a fact - it is a massive difference between the two gaming systems. Not the only one, not the biggest one, maybe, but surely a very big difference. As @Overread pointed out, the amount of shooting usually involved with 40K would maybe make the double turn mechanics quite obnoxious, yes, and yet I found myself sort of "missing" the double turn possibility there. Now, perhaps a bit of context can help: I started with Aos and only later on got involved with 40K, so I was used to the double turn in the first place. Most of you guys have probably been playing a lot without this mechanics, whilst for me, well, that's it's everything I knew until recently. I don't think 40K is boring - with the sole exception of playing against some lists who needs a phenomenally long amount of time to get through the shooting phase. I am glad we don't have anything like it in AoS, and yes, I do think that too much shooting is a bit boring. That's just me, though. Of course I like doing stuff. When I get a turn I am thinking like everybody else "wow, ok, now I am in charge, let's smash some skulls". I am just saying that when the double turn is a possibility I am actually thinking "wow, ok, now I am in charge, let's smash some skulls while trying to plan for the potential double turn ahead". I find this challenging, not least because planning ahead for a double turn typically involves, sadly, to play a bit more defensively that you would like to. You could delete that unit over there, but you might find yourself badly outstretched in the space of two turns - what do you do, you sit and wait (hard) or you take the gamble (the temptation is a strong one!)? That's a tough choice, one that I'd like to think about and one that only the possibility of a double turn would give you. Of course I feel utterly helpless when I do take said gamble and get double-turned. Happens more often than I care to admit, especially with some of my lists that are very much in-your-face/alpha strike builds - sometimes you have to gamble, and you know that if you don't get double turned the game might be basically yours in turn 2 already. But then you do get double turned, and it's the other way around. Too much luck-of-the-dice? Well maybe, but I am ok with that. Final thought: those times when you manage to clutch a victory even when (badly) double turned along the way? Two times the satisfaction!

Ok, that’s fair. I’ll rephrase: the double turn is probably not boring at all for those of us who enjoy the tactical nuances of the game. Note that I’m not claiming I’m some flawless strategist (quite the opposite, in fact!) - I have been and I am sure I will continue to get smashed upon a double turn, but I enjoy the challenge! There are other bits that one might find “boring” along the very same lines, I guess: a Tzeench hero phase, or a Cities of Sigmar shooting phase, for instance, but similarly to the double turn they are part of the game, even if - again, similarly to the double turn - you have to watch while your army gets decimated. Well, yes, I believe a great many people hate the double turn - not because is boring, though, but because they feel that when that happens it’s game over. And it could be, but... I would have to disagree with this one. I have even willingly subjected myself to the opponent’s double turn in quite a few occasions - and in some of them, I ended up on top at the end. I am quite confident in saying that many of us managed to win a game even when having to withstand a double turn. It’s not the end of the world - it might be, but rarely so if you have taken it into account to some extent. The one thing I’d say is that the turns in AoS are not a detail - enforcing a house rule that would prevent the double turn would feel like playing a different game altogether to me.

I agree. Indeed. Yep. I play 40K as well, and I find the alternating turns mechanics to be absolutely dull. Against simple lists (stay there and shoot, get them in your face and maul them...) you can quite literally play the entire game in your head before the first round is over. Awful. The possibility of a double turn is a huge part of AoS tactics. It forces you to think ahead, it heavily influences your positioning (which, unless you play very specific combinations of factions and list builds, determines whether you win or lose) and it probably represents one the most exciting times during the game. Despite everything you know about strategy you have decided to overcommit an especially precious unit of yours, bringing it in the face of your opponent's havey hitters notwithstanding the very real possibility of a double turn? Well, you win ties, right? Your opponent rolls a six, and now is up to you - man, that's an exciting roll! Or, you are the ultimate tactical genius and you have planned for this - you are very ready to cope with your opponent's double turn, knowing that if he gets double turned next it's going to be their end... I play Death, and when playing Death the last thing you want is getting double turned (as healing is absolutely paramount and it happens chiefly in your hero phase) - but here lies the challenge: to plan ahead, to mitigate, to scheme the perfect workaround. Sometimes I do get double turned and suffer massive losses - but then, I can always tell what my mistake was, and it almost always has to do with a detail I didn't think about in the context of two turns ahead. That is the subtle beauty of it. The double turn is great, and we should all embrace it. I recently watched a batrep on MiniWarGaming and I was livid when one of the players didn't took the double turn because it's such a broken mechanics and it would end the game prematurely. That's bollocks - the opponent simply didn't plan for it, it was their fault, and as such they should have been righteously annhilated. You can tell when that happens, right? You give first turn to your opponent in the first battleround and they move everything up, devouring the entirety of your very cheap screens and living your hard hitters with the prime opportunity to wipe half of your opponent's army in one go. Got a double turn? Game over. Is it because of a broken mechanics? No it's not - it's because the opponent made the silliest move of them all. Apologies if this sounds a tad bit harsh but really, this is a game of strategy (and dice...) after all, and the double turn is simply a (massive!) part of that strategy. It can't possibly be labelled as boring either - I, for one, constantly find myself in need of more and more time to plan my next turn, and the double turn gives you plenty of room to think (if you can manage to not get distracted by some of your units typically being wiped off the table, that is...).

So very true! I'd say the 5-0 philosophy is kind of a vicious cicle, in that it's the end result of broken mechanics and the like: if the crazy OP thing razes everyone 5-0, everyone is sort of forced to embrace new levels of filth, which in turns makes for more 5-0... some would say is part of the competitive processo - I, am not sure. The thing that I really don't quite understand is how come that some mightily OP stuff doesn't get spotted (and thus rectified) at the playtesting stage: I don't think it would have taken a genius to realise how to transform things such as Slaanesh summoning or the Ardboyz battalion into devastating lists. In any case: I very much agree, 3 - 2 should be everyone's goal!

You might be right here... I could argue that the problem with the Black Coach is that it's not a Hero (nor it's the Mourngul, but supporting the Black Coach feels a bit more complicated to me), that the -1 to hit is priceless ... but the reality of it is that I can't possibily be painting such a huge model to a decent standard without coming to hate the process True! I start with two CPs... the Command Ability of the Vampire Lord doesn't need to be used very often, and when it kicks, it last until the next hero phase. It is very true that you always want a spare CP to make good use of the Dreadblade - but I found that a bit of planning is usually enough. I very rarely re-roll charges, in that this build is not meant to deliver via From the Underworld they Come, but the odd Inspiring Presence... in a nutshell, yes, I do agree with you - there is an element of risk there, even if one is conscious about it... I guess I'll have to try it out

Thanks! I’ve emailed GW... but in the meantime, I’ll have fun with some Mourngul-based LoB list building!

So... in light of the recent points changes (particularly Lady Olynder, but I love the Kurdoss model/mechanics so much that he is game as well) as well as the new battalions, I have had a good think about a “new” (for me) Nighthaunt list. This discussion has been really useful to identify some novel strength we could leverage: to me, those are having a very though general (via the Dolorous Guard battalion) and having +1 attack for free (via the Forgotten Scions battalion). In particular, I wanted to build a list: That will allow great mobility to my units. From the Underworld they Come is a start, but to me the Dreadblade Harrow + Spectral Summons combination is still too good to be overlooked. You win games with it - fact. Where my General would stay alive for long enough, ideally throughout the entire game. As per the point above, in my case that’d be the Dreadblade. Problem: we need at least two units of Hexwraiths to field the Dolorous guard. Moving both of them around will cost a hefty 2 Command Points - a mighty investment. Yes, you could always field 10 and 5 Hexwraiths in two different units and use the 10-man unit only as screen / Spectral Summons target, but then you are left with 5 Hexwraiths for which you pay 140 pts. A solid anvil: my Reapers always delivered, so that one’s easy. A decent hammer: this is where I considered the Forgotten Scions. However: the mounted Knight of Shrouds Command Ability comes for free once per battleround, which means that in order to keep the +1 attack for the entire round (it last for one combat phase only) you’ll still need a CP. At that point, a Vampire Lord gives you exactly the same (and he’s a caster as well). Plus, the cost - same as the Dolorous Guard: the two together cost a lot. Too much. Result: a list that does not include any battalion and that does not leverage any recent change in points. Have a look, folks: This is a rather old-fashion list, I’d say. Can you make it better with respect to the requirement above, by taking advantage of either points changes or new battalions? Try! To me, the bodies you lose are just too many... but I might be wrong!

Well spotted, mate - thanks! Yes, I believe that an email is definitely in order at this point...

Darn... we just got the new LoN errata, and the one line concerning the Mourngul still stand: as such, I don't think we can bring this guy in LoB after all. Uff...

Glad to hear you have been having some success with Neferata. In light of the points drop I might consider to get her back into my list - I reall want to! My comments about Our Beautiful Queen not being good mostly revolved around her being squishy. If your opponent kills your General (and she has to be your general, which makes sense with respect to the lore, obviously, but it is quite a problem when trying to build a LoB list in my opinion) your game is almost always uphill, especially if you lose her within the first two turns - even turn three or four is quite bad, though, as that's when you probably need to bring stuff back. In the current meta we now have quite a few shooty builds (Cities of Sigmar, Skavens, Seraphons, Overlords... the list goes on) as well as a few Mortal Wounds-heavy lists (Tzeench first and foremost, but some Cities of Sigmar and other factions can also go for that option). Against any of those, is very difficult to keep Neferata alive: her 4+ is not great, and it gets unrendable only if you successfuly cast her spell (Dark Mist), which is a gamble and is not always there (turns priorities). 11 wounds is also not great, and her healing is awful: you don't want to get her into combat (as she sucks at it) hence she very rarely heals the two wounds via the Mortarch of Blood Ability. Her Command Ability is awesome, but it costs CPs, and it's almost impossible to farm them within a LoB list, as the Battalions we have available are not strong options and the usual Aetherquartz Brooch is a gamble on a 5+ (same as Kurdoss' ability, he just dropped in points to 180, but still). Crucially, even at full health, Twilight's Allure has 15" range. Most shooting is very much happy with a 24" range or so, which makes the whole point mute. Finally, no artefacts on named characters, so no Gryph-feather Charm and the like. You can get lucky if you stumble onto a massive Overgrown piece of terrain, but in that case she is probably hidden somewhere, not doing anything useful. Think of what you get instead with a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon as your general: you can make him etheral or flat -1 to hit via an artefact, 3+ save (pure filth if etheral), 3 wounds more, healing via his Chalice of Blood, The Hunger (this guy kills things, so yes, you want them in combat and he will survive) and Vile Transference as well (which you could put on Neferata as well, sure, but Overwhelming Dread is too good for her). If you pick Aura of Dark Majesty as your command trait, the guy is -1 to hit in command for free, no CPs to be used (artefact + command trait = - 2 to hit in combat, for free. Insane). I love Neferata's model, I love her lore, and I am glad that she went down to 340, but for 100 pts more you get a general that doesn't die that easily (if at all) and can both sit on objectives and delete almost everything for 1 CP (with his own command ability on, a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon can kill most things at will). This is similar to a list I went 2-3 with (swap the Hexwraiths for Grimghast Reapers and we are basically there) - when Neferata managed to stack up a disgusting -3 to hit (Overwhelming Dread + her CA x1 [Commanding terrain helped])... that was something, but in 3 games out of 5 she got wiped out within turn 2 (Seraphons with Razordons and Bastilladons, Cities of Sigmar with huge blocks of shoothing units, Tzeench). Last thing I want is to come across as critical (I really do hope you don't think that's the case!), but why would you run this list in Legion of Blood? Extra attacks on just your VLoZD, and a scant -1 bravery across the board, that's it... at that point, swap your VL on foot for Arkhan and go for Legion of Sacrament... with 2 wizards knowing three spells each, a viable battalion and a few more perks...

I agree - and that's the one bit of good news we have to cling/capitalise on. I am a tad bit disappointed, I won't lie... especially as nothing much changed for Legion of Nagash as well (Neferata going down 40 points is my only consolation). On a related note, and despite sounding a bit salty at this point: some, including myself, have noticed a potential nerf for Skaven, given the points increase of severa of their heroes... and then I had a look at the plague monks new warscroll. If anything, it's actually filthier. Top that up with this new bit in their Designers' commentary: and I believe am I very much ready for an early pint...

I have been using small units (10 models) of ChainRasps as screens, with decent results: they rarely survive a single combat phase against its a chaff vs chaff business, and there is no point in supporting them properly with that unit size. If you want them to stay, you migt want to consider a single unit of 40: with some support they become something your opponent has to deal with. If you want to sacrifice them in order to ensure that both your blocks of Reapers and Revenants will get their charges (especially key with your costly Revenants which get +1 attack on the charge), then small units of 10 can and will work. I reckon it hugely depends on which units (if any) you are planning to bring up onto the table via From the Underworld they Come: if the plan is to deep stricke your Revenants and the like, I'd probably go for a big blob of 40. If you are going to start with mostly evertyhing on the table, screening is a necessity instead. The Cogs with not bonuses to cast are too much of a gamble, and investing in Reikenor or at the very least the Guardian of Soul relic (+1 to cast) is a big investment if your list is not built to leverage massively From the Underworld they Come. If you were to drop the Geminidis as well as 10 Rasps, you could get a second Guardian of Souls: I feel like your Rasps are presently completely unsupported... the Knight fo Shroud and the Spirit Torment will go with the Revenants, the Dreadblade with the Spirit Hosts, the Guardian of Sould with the Reapers... what about your 30/40 Rasps? They need their Deathless Minions at the very least. And/or, consider running the chainguard? Last thing: the Midnight Tome is real nice on the Dreadblade, but against a shooty army (of which we have quite a few these days, especially after the Cities of Sigmar book) that guy is gone real fast. The Gryph-feather Charm is my goto artefact for him, as coupled with Look out Sir gives you a minus 2 to be shot at.

She’s not a Monster (Look out Sir holds), her mortal wounds output is not bad at all, and Grief-Stricken is bonkers. 200 Feels right to me, but I might be biased - I love the model... This is very true. Once more, I refuse to think Slaanesh didn’t get nerfed at all. Sure, many factions have seen reductions across the board, but surely we need to fix their summoning mechanics... and that of the new Orks as well. Bah - maybe that’s going to happen, sooner or later, we haven’t seen the actual Errata yet (if any!) Also very true. However, (1) much depends on this new warscroll for plague monks (looks the same on Azyr at the moment), their points are unchanged and that’s quite outrageous (2) stormfiends unit size is now max 6, but that’s not enough, they can still ruin anyone’s game with their insane MW shooting, that’s where we needed the points increase, 20 pts more for a few hero is not going to do much...

In all honesty, I feel like Olynder is now actually slightly underpriced, especially given the possibility of making her uber-tough via the Dolorous Guard. Kurdoss at 180 pts is still probably not viable in a competitive scenario, but it’s getting there. Overall I agree with what has been said up to now: we didn’t get much, but guys, we did get something, and it’s all good news. Time to sit down and think properly about the next list... one thing has to be said: we are spoiled for choices. Nine of them might be very strong, but at least we have many, and that keeps it interesting to me. I play Legion of Blood as well (Neferata also went down 40 pts... hurray!) , and there are only a couple of viable builds there...

I’m definitely with you as it concerns Neferata - our takes on BKs might differ, but about Our Beautiful Queen there is no question at all! Well, Neferata just went down 40 pts - it’s a start!

Our Beautiful Queen getting 40 points cheaper... not too bad, not too bad. Still a rather tricky pick in a competitive scenario, but it’s better than nothing, I suppose. GW seems to have messed with the release/upload/app update of these Errata to an unprecedented extent, though, hence a tiny part of me still hopes for... well, more.

Thanks @EnixLHQ! No Slaanesh?! That can’t be right, surely there’s more to come?

That can’t be true...

Casual but wrong? 😉 That’d be bringing huge blobs of Chainrasps without some support, specifically in the form of heroes. Casual but strong? They are excellent already as they are: 5+ ethereal save, 2 attacks each hitting on 4s wounding on 4s re-rolling failed wound rolls of 1 if you have more than 10 (of course you have more than 10), which also grants you bravery 10. They attack in 2 ranks thanks to the very small bases as well. What do you use them for? Holding objectives, forcing your opponent to a game of attrition. Slow unit, but they do fly. Excellent footprint on the board, if you spread your models 0.9” apart from each other you can cover a lot of ground. Very very cheap indeed, and the regiment discount is fantastic. Problems: in Nighthaunt is very difficult to return models quicker than your opponent kills them. This is especially true with big units of Chainrasps - and, as opposed to Legions of Nagash, once the unit is gone it’s gone. How to make them better: with 240 points and a command point you get a Guardian of Souls and Knight of Shrouds (on foot) whom will have your Rasps (1) hitting on 3s thanks to the Knight command ability (requires some care with positioning the big blob wholly within 12”) (2) wounding on 3s thanks to the in-built ability of the Guardian. Suddenly your Rasps are doing some proper damage, and in a game of attrition that’s what you want (3) returning D6 (+3 with the Guardian bespoke artefact, which is worth taking) back every hero phase IF you manage to cast Spectral Lure via your Guardian of Souls. This is one of the many combos that you can leverage - have a good look at the various Nighthaunt heroes, many of them are support heroes. Personally, I tend to run small units of Rasps as screens - amazingly, sometimes they manage to tag the opponent’s hard-is hitters for longer than a single combat phase. I never use them in big ****** because (a) I can’t be bothered to paint 120 very small models to a decent standard (b) I love Grimghast Reapers too much not to use them instead: you pay so much more for a very simple reason, and that is: is one of the not-so-many units in the entire game that you can use as either a very solid anvil or a rather Killy hammer. A flying one, that moves 8” and flies... In a nutshell: I’m not a huge fan but that’s personal taste. Nighthaunt scan be played as a horde army, and in that case Chainrasps are the way to go. The one thing I’d say to you is: if you have decided to go down this route, go big - no middle ground, get yourself 40 models to start with!

Thanks - where about in the GHB2019 was the Sepulchral Guard fixed? Turns out a new LoN Errata is imminent, so maybe they’re going to fix the Mourngul issue after all... we’ll see.

They just uploaded an Errata for Nurgle, with (new? No idea!) points for quite a few units. Plus, an Errata with respect to basis size, but luckily enough nothing concerning Nighthaunt basing... I wouldn't be that keen to re-base 60 reapers... Oh man, what if we really get some points changes? Let us hope, let it snow!

I have just got myself a Mourngul model from ForgeWorld: it looks fantastic and it'll make a nice addition to my Nighthaunt army. Having had a good look at its warscroll, though, I came up with a couple of filthy interesting ideas revolving around including a Mourngul in both a generic Death army as well as in a Legion of Blood army. Is that even allowed, I asked myself. There are a few (if a bit dated) threads about this here, and we have the latest (July 2019) GW Designers' Commentary on the Legions of Nagash as well. As far as I understand it, this is what we have as we speak: - The Mourngul can be taken in a Nighthaunt army, no problem - it has the NIGHTHAUNT keyword after all. - The Mourngul can be taken in a generic Death army, no problem - anything with the DEATH keyword would work here... - The Mourngul cannot be taken in a Legion of Blood army, not even as an ally, as the above mentioned Designers' Commentary rather cleary states that: I am not going to loose my sleep over this one, but I'd admit it does bother me quite a bit. As a start, both Azyr and Warscroll Builder are quite happy to let me include a Mourngul in a Legion of Blood build. Ok, ok, the apps are nothing and all that, but still. Then, this amazingly odd rule is in direct contradiction with the Picthed Battle Profiles published in the Legions of Nagash battletome: The Mourngul does have the NIGHTHAUNT keyword, so why oh why he alone within the entire Nighthaunt range wouldn't be allow to sit in a Legion of Blood build?! Note that this rule about allies has never being FAQ'd itself, so I really don't get it. Have I missed something? What do people think?