ChaosUndivided

I have been trying to squeeze the Warqueen in Ravagers list myself. The +3 on charge command is impressive combo with the Marauders charge ability. If she is near edge of table she can summon on the field next to her and tag them in following phase. As it stands now you can choose to make summoned units GV or not depending on the Mark you give them which you can choose then. There is no caveat that they need to have her Mark or the Generals, this adds some nice flexibility if your going after a proving grounds or not.

The points changes will come with the new battletome. Personally i only take Archaon out for local tournament games. I find most people dont enjoy playing against him. So i typically just stick to Varanguard for casual games. I like Empty Throne for obvious reasons but in this new season Ravagers will probably be my go to sub faction, because if the Varanguard are in Empty Throne they wont be eligible for Bounty Hunters. Also being able to summon Veterans on any board edge every round can be used to contest Proving Grounds. Also it gives me a chance to tie up any enemy Bounty Hunters prior to the Veterans appearing. But i have been wondering what changes are coming with the new battletome. The Damned Legions leaked in the table of contents images appears to cover the lore of all the subfactions we currently have. Just going down the list we have... Archaon the Everchosen aka Host of Everchosen Belakore the Dark Master aka Legion of the First Prince (it really should just be folded into S2D proper) Champions of the Chaos Tribes aka Ravagers Masters of the Dark Arts aka Cabalist Wrought in Iron and Hatred aka (presumably) Despoilers Ogeroids Unleashed, which is all new. The Lost and the Damned aka Empty Throne (im kinda guessing here but this phrase usually refers to specifically Chaos Warriors and Knights) And the final damned legion, Warbands of the Eight Points aka Idolaters. Seems like everything is still intact and im not expecting any major shake ups rules wise here, however, even a tweak here or there could have a big impact on the competitive viability of any one of these subfactions. The future of Cultist is unclear to me because their current points/rules seems ripe for a big change. The Deamon Prince change was quite large but also needed. The Khorne prince was a op npe. The always fights first was also jank and the real reason list with 5, even 6, DP where popping up. If all of them get to sink their sub-par attacks into the same unit/model before that unit gets to fight back its either dead or almost dead by then. Not very interactive or fun and probably not intended either. The real burning question for me is what changes will occur to the Auras of Chaos. Tzeentch is my go to aura, rerolling ones in a save stacking meta is incredible. Just math wise its crazy powerful but i dont see this surviving the battletome update. If its a flat +1 to save rolls it wont be nearly as potent with all the +1 saves we already have to pass around. I typically build my list around the auras to balance out between tankiness and offensive power. If they change the auras up theres a chance some units get shelved for the foreseeable future. Currently with the new GHB rules i think their is still play in most of the army in a casual sense but competitively the internal balance of the army will weigh heavily on the new battletome and could really swing things.

So every Khorne or S2D player is a "poor timmy" now cuz their armies lack any shooting? This whole convo seems like it belongs in another thread.. yet again.

Yeah i guess so. I never seen this kind of wording used in the allies section tho. There was a distinction made in a previous faq so maybe this is just their way of clarifying it moving forward.

Idk, are we counting some models as allies and others as coalition now? Seems kinda strange but i guess we will find out soon.

Did anyone notice in the leaked point images it said at the bottom of the zteentch page that they are only allies with Non mark of chaos s2d units? I would imagine this will hold true for other chaos gods. Which means their is currently like 4 or 5 models that can ally with other chaos factions, including archaon, belakore, mind stealer cat, fomeroid, and furies.

The video where everything is in shadow previewed the new chaos sorcerer lord who ia supposed to be a w+ exclusive. I had took a guess awhile back on a rumor engine of a tzeentch staff and said it looks like the curslings and got a like by ours truley whitefang master mystic of rumor thread lore.

With any luck that is the staff of the homonculus on the Cursling's back.

Whoa what? The current warscroll is axe 3/3/3/-2/2 and claws 3/3/3/-/2, the new warscroll is going to be 5/3/3/-2/2 for axe. So he lost 1 whole attack but picked up -2 rend on 2 more attacks. This isnt a huge nerf to his damage output. I think it was pretty much understood that blood slick ground was not going to remain the same forever. As Agent of Chaos pointed out the Nurgle DP may actually be handy to keep around and i can see Tzeentch one seeing play depending on subtraction/other rules. Im expecting the marks of chaos get revamped and be a game changer, but can only guess.

Point proven i guess? Pretty sure this is just a variation on similar list that recently done well. Its very min/max' ish like most competitive list but feels especially so. The inclusion of the Manticore made me smile tho. Im really hoping the new Demon Prince scroll is a "typo" and instantly gets faq' but perhaps thats wishful thinking.

@Ravinsild Khendall is kinda right. Basically all competitive s2d builds have some combination of Archaon, Belakor, Varanguard, Demon Prince, and warcry cultist. The Chaos Lord and Sorcerer on foot are great buff pieces but will be quickly deleted in a competitive matchup against skilled opponent, otherwise i would put them in any list. Chaos Warriors and Knights will leave you disappointed most of time. Tzeentch marked warriors can stick around awhile but cant shift opponent and will crumble once they loose the 10+ model buff. Khorne marked Knights can pack a punch on the charge but will otherwise struggle to hurt anything and charging is not a guarantee and rarely will happen more than once a game. I have had good experience with Chosen but mostly when taking Archaon for the fight on death ability cuz they will drop like flies and are extremely vulnerable to shooting. The Warshrine is ok if you're taking blobs of warriors or knights it can support but really doesn't have a place competitively. I love this model and use it often but usually feels like the points would have been better spent elsewhere. The Sorcerer on Manticore is actually a solid choice, i like to give him Arcane Tome, Flaming Weapons spell, and Master of Magic trait, however, this is another guy i never see in top table competitive list. If you're not crazy about Marauders perhaps try giving Iron Golems and Untamed Beast a look. They are good for their points but ultimately you're gonna have to turn to things like Varanguard if you actually want to punch a hole thru your opponents front lines.

@Khendall why not battle regiment? You could make your 7 drop into 4, heck you could squeeze it all into 1 drop if you wanted. If you're running despoilers i would suggest you make Belakor the general for the 5+ ward save, or even Archaon. The list seems really light on bodies for the objective game, i dont have experience with Splinter Fang but i imagine those guys are gonna evaporate under pressure. @Ravinsild all the command traits you choose for Ravagers are always active from start of battle regardless if that hero is currently general or not. You can also choose from the list of universal ones found on page 92 of generals handbook, i suggest Master of Magic.

@Ravinsild the 5+ save after save is only for mortal wounds not normal wounds, where as the warahrine is 6+ for both but you can only ever have one save after the save, they dont stack whether actual "ward" or not. Im curious if the marks of chaos buffs will remain the same, they have always seemed rather mundane and uninspired to me even if thematically appropriate. I wouldnt mind if the new battletome actually incentivized mixing them up more.

New flagellates plz.

Also if Pitch Black is still a thing (presumably) that helps. That Ogeroid damned legion may very well have either speed or durability buffs tho.

I have yet to actually use the kitty but i think it can be very powerful when used in combination with the fight twice ability the varanguard have or the chaos lord can do. The idea is to use the cats fight last ability on an enemy monster or anvil unit then one - two punch it before the enemy unit gets a chance to hit back. The khorne deamon prince command ability can help you neutralize the opponent and give you a chance to move in position to set up the combo.

What if GW is punishing us for not buying enuff over produced dominion boxes? 🤔

This is precisely why i feel the new coalition rules didn't hurt khorne as bad as many make it out to be. All the good khorne buffs are from their heroes and target khorne marked things still. My S2D collection started as a khorne army where i would self impose mortal only list. Which made things like manticore, slaughterbrute, and warshrines great additions but they never benefited from much other than the buffs khorne heroes passed out. The warshrine lost the its protection aura (outside S2D) awhile back, and 2 prayer cast when 3.0 came out, so thats been out the window long before coalition rules. Plus generic prayers are quite good. I never really summoned deamons with blood tithe, the boons are great and still works on thirsters, but truth be told manticore has never been that good outside of sorcerer spell. Archaon losing them is a shame but now skarbrand gets to fight on death? Oh man do you know how many mortals that guy pumps out? Plus anything at all dies it generates blood tithe so arc can still rack those up. Most of the time many khorne players are spamming auto unbind or waiting to summon something so not much changed. Really blood tithe should not reset when used or the boons need improvement, ideally both. The same applies to tzeentch fate mechanic, it doesnt matter who cast a spell so long as a spell is cast you gain fate points. The destiny dice + slayer of kings was truly problematic. Slaanesh on the other hand probably did suffer the most from new coalition rule. S2D cant generate depravity points any more and some of their buffs did come from allegiance abilities. All this separation from the god armies is ultimately good for S2D own balance if their points/warscrolls can improve without being broken in other armies. But hurts for players like @readercolin, @Agent of Chaos, (and myself) who want to dabble in all the chaos armies by supplementing troops with Slaves. I think the problem of balancing between all the possibilities is to switch it around and make the god armies coalition inside S2D, then we can play with our favorite toys and much of the balancing issues can be remedied by tweeking the subfaction bonuses within S2D (which would have their own restrictions). Edit: Btw archaon still gets to fight twice (possibly every turn) in a khorne army if you bring chaos lord.

Most, if not all, top tier competitive armies rely on a small handful of list and/or units. Take those out of the equation and their win rates plummet against armies that fair poorly at top tables (im looking at you skarbrand + 3 thirsters). If your going to battle against min/max net list then archaon and/or a slew of varanguard are your go to. If you are gonna play casually there is a lot of viable options but mileage is gonna vary depending on how janky your opponents list is. In general S2D relies on a lot of buffs from easily removable pieces who need to stay close to the action in order to work. I would like to see the god armies become coalition in a S2D list instead of the other way around. This makes more sense thematically as all chaos is under one banner (undivided) but would also make things like running slaughter priest in idolaters an interesting choice or tzeentch wizards in cabalist more interesting.

Yup, outside of archaon and varanguard there lacks any real punch. A lot of the warscrolls are bland and underwhelming. There is clear rolls for various units but everything is avg at best. Also the point cost for things is high across the board except for cultist and the foot heroes. I think a lot of this stems back to AoS 1 and S2D being able to soup into the god armies, which is flavorful, but a nightmare to balance. With the save stacking more rend is needed in general across the entire game or we need an "ignore save modifiers" style attack to balance out mortal wounds power. But that goes right back to S2D weak magic which delivers little to no damage in instant mortal wounds. With the lack of any shooting or magic S2D is forced to crash through opponents front line in order to remove key targets or rely on archaon and/or levitating/6th circle varanguard. I am really hoping that preview video for upcoming w+ subscribers does show a new chaos sorcerer and it has a different warscroll than current one with some d6 mortal dmg (or better) spell, but that still wont help much on yet another 5w foot hero. Its hard to complain tho when compared to other factions who also struggle. I think its best if S2D does essential become more "divided" (as it were) between other armies and also internally, so that the balancing isnt as tricky, and S2D warscrolls can become better at the specific rolls they are intended for.

Warning: im about to go on a rant but its cuz i love this faction and really care for some crazy reason about this. S2D does well as a filthy casual army with a lot of viable combinations. It suffers against competitive list (even with archaon) due to many of its strongest force multipliers being 5 wound foot sloggers, and weak scrolls on avg. Other armies also have this issue wich is multiplied when you consider that yet other armies are able to reach out and delete your buff bots. Who need to be wholly within painfully short distances. Couple that with the fact S2D have nearly no way to also just reach across the board, with either magic or shooting, and just delete the opponents 5 wound heroes when need be. On the other hand S2D has access to stronger buff pieces in the sorcerer on manticore, and chaos warshrine, however these are hard to squeeze into competitively optimized list. Largely due to the fact the army depends on expensive and/or ineffective hammers. Competitive statistics really skew reality in the casually competitive scene where it seems many people play. Im considering casually competitive as somewhere in between tournament and narrative player. In that i dont want to get completely crushed and i owe it to my opponent to give them a good battle, mixed with i put this unit in my army cuz i like the model/lore/aesthetic or, this its just what i own/assembled/painted. In the casually competitive sense S2D has some very strong mechanics in its multiple ways to hand out buffs like +1 save, reroll hit AND wound rolls, fight twice, and fight last. Fight last i feel is underated considering there is at least 2 ways between spell lore and mindstealer cats making success very likely to at least one if not multiple enemies. Then you combine that with varanguad ability to fight twice or better yet, cheap snipable, foot slogging, chaos lords command ability (wait can varanguad fight 3 times before their target gets to?). But wait theres more! I get to reroll all those hits and wounds untill my next hero phase? And there is two different ways to do that? And one is undeniable prayer and the other is rerollable? Thanks! Oh dont forget the khorne demon prince, who can stop the opponent dead in their tracks, paving the way for you to pick your choice of charges, and even fight at the top of combat. Oh man all i gotta do is get everyone in range and set all my stuff off... Oh wait nevermind, everything i need is killed from across the board or just smashed to pieces by jank spam that hits harder and faster, with no buffs and zero effort. Thanks.

S2D is a complete mess right now spanning at least 5 publications. The battletome, Wrath of Everchosen (Knights of Empty Throne), 2 Broken Realms books (Legion of the First Prince and Idolaters), White Dwarf, as well as at least 3 scattered FAQ with critically important changes within them. I dunno how many factions are in such a state of shambles but S2D needs an updated battletome badly and for all intensive purposes there doesn't seem to be one anywhere on the horizon. The cultist really need an overhaul their extremely clunky to play in AoS proper, the warscrolls are barely playable if not for their extremely low point cost (which is not good game design). The White Dwarf changes to Warqueen ect and the new Darkoath warband dont jive telling me the WD is a bandaid at best. It seems like Darkoath is truly intended to be its own sub faction but requires at least 2 more unit kits with 1 of them being dual build. I could see the next book having much more separate subfactions with more strict rules as to what units are allowed and a clear line between what units work well with others. The new coalition rules as far as god armies are concerned seem like the first step in a direction to give S2D better warscroll mechanics and a more aggressive point cost but only time will tell i guess.

If i remember correctly last time we got battleboxes with new hero for each faction and battletome they often came with an endless spell or terrain piece. Idoneth still dont have spells so that could be a possibility. Im just now starting to put my redharvest set together and the whole S2D whitedwarf update along with the darkoath warband not having the cultist keyword really perplexed me but im starting to think that S2D's next tome (whenever that is) is gonna be split up a la orruk warclans where there is very distinct factions. One being vanilla archaon, others being darkoath, cultist/idolater, belekor, possibly chorfs with a big waagg style option.

The new coalition rules really only apply to S2D units in other chaos gods army. It does little to change S2D internally. So i dont see any reason to get that bummed out about it. I think its a bad rules change myself, they could have only changed Archaon to not receive allegiance abilities and left the other S2D units alone, no harm no foul, but instead there is this redundant and unnecessary rule applied to all S2D.

This is probably wishful thinking on my part but the fact the new darkoath warband doesn't have "cultist" keyword is a sign an actual darkoath sub-faction is in the works. Possibly the changes to warqueen, ect, in whitedwarf is a temporary thing and could change with an updated tome, whenever that is. Also why haven't i heard anyone guess the rumor engine is spider rider? 🤔