Kharneth
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How are disciples of tzeentch? What sort of benefits are included in playing one, other than its heavy emphasis on magic spells? What are some of the good units, bad units, and battalions? How versatile are they, skimming through the warscrolls it appears that most of the units are ranged, do they have issues dealing with heavy melee armies? I've been playing various Khorne armies for most of the time I've been playing warhammer and am considering trying out Tzeentch. I'm a little worried that Tzeentch will rely on magic as much as Khorne relies on combat. I'm looking for something more versatile than Khorne and am hoping that Tzeentch's magic is versatile. Additionally, if I were to get started with collecting some disciples of Tzeetnch, where should I begin? I'd kind of like some horrors and a lord of change, but I'm unsure if a LoC is going to be useful in smaller games.
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I expect to be unable to charge the crossbowmen with any unit I send across the board because that relies on my enemy placing them without any screens and even if my friend did this, he'd only do it once lol. So, whether it's a bloodletter bomb or a bloodthirster, I think it's likely that it'll be in combat with the swordsmen. The bloodthirster could get a good charge roll and with the right set-up might be able to fly-charge the crossbowmen (right?). If I took only the bloodthirster I'd probably be better off going for a turn 2 charge and using the 1st turn to avoid being shot up as he'd definitely be the prime target. With the bloodletters I was thinking after their initial charge they'll have slain a lot of the enemy unit. With the bloodthirster immune to shooting for the turn, the bloodletters will be shot at or the skullcrushers will be targeted (they should be in position to move/charge at this point). So, he shoots the bloodletters and probably kills all/most of them, but the skullcrushers and bloodthirster will be charging.
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We had decent terrain. There were two castle walls that were about 6" long and just as high, so they blocked line of sight but not to my advantage. There was a large rock in the middle that I used to block his cannon's line of sight to my characters and a small house in my deployment zone that I used for the same thing. There was more terrain, like a forest in front of my deployment zone behind one of the castle walls and another forest in front of his deployment zone. His crossbowmen were behind his forest and by his 2nd turn he had his swordsmen in the forest, so that's where the melee was going to happen but I'm sure he was planning to keep my unit out of the forest. The mission we played was First Blood, which turned out to be the worst scenario. He had 2x15 swordsmen, 30 crossbowmen, a (dwarven) cannon, a wizard with a -1 to hit debuff (miasma), a mounted general, and a warrior priest that he was hoping I'd let him use in his free guild army (I guess they're a separate faction, now). Because there was no objective he did not move forward at all and just repositioned his swordsmen to cover his cannon and crossbows. He deployed first and gave me first turn. I had, like I said, 2x10 warriors, 2x5 reapers, a bloodstoker, slaughterpriest, and aspiring deathbringer. I ran forward and he shot me. When his shooting was done, his cannon had missed and his crossbows (plus battleshock) left me with 2 blood warrior champions and 1 standard bearer. Then he won initiative on the 2nd turn and moved the rest of his swordsmen so that one unit covered the front in the forest and the other protected the inner flank, cannon, and characters. At this point I conceded because I knew the skullreapers would take wounds as fast as the blood warriors. I think I could have a chance with my list if I got the initiative on turn 2, but that's too unreliable. I'm pretty confident that the bloodthirster, bloodletters, and bloodstoker could beat him without relying on getting any first turns, I'm just annoyed because I bought all these new khorne models just to replace them with the same units I've been using in 40k. Ragged Cloak could actually be really nice. If I had 30 bloodletters in combat with 15 or 30 swordsmen and then a bloodthirster standing just shy of charge range waiting for the next turn, who do you think would get hailed by crossbow bolts? Those crossbowmen will inflict 32 wounds with about half of them -1 rend, so they'll reliable kill either the bloodletters or the bloodthirster. Other than for battalions, what is the benefit/advantage of taking blood warriors over skullcrushers? It has recently occurred to me that skullcrushers have the same defense, but slightly greater wounds, and superior offense compared to blood warriors. In addition, they're faster and don't take up much more space in melee (do you guys fight in 2 ranks with blood warriors?). This question is for people who use Juggerlords or who take blood warriors over skullcrushers in lists that have exceeded the minimum battleline requirements. Thanks for the responses, I've only been playing against my one friend so my experience has been very limited.
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I don't think it's possible for my list to beat his list unless I go first on the second turn, that's part of the reason I'm frustrated. I can't see a way to traverse 24" without getting shot up by his crossbowmen without taking the WoK thirster and some whipped bloodletters.
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Was that at 1k, though?
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I only have 1 Khorgorath and 10 Bloodreavers. I'm not sure how useful the khorgorath would be since it seems I'll need either speed or numbers. Idk what you're up against, but 30 crossbowmen have 60 shots and they're dealing 30 wounds with a lot of -1 rend so I really either need to drown him in bodies, which would cost time and money, or I can try for a turn 1 charge or something. His one unit killed almost all of my 20 blood warriors, which was nearly half my army in 1 turn of shooting. I'm thinking about taking amassing juggernauts to go with WoK Thirster and bloodletters, but I'm not sure if that'll be better than gore pilgrims. I'm not really sure what else to do because he really killed my entire army with a single unit before I could make it to him and I can only see one thing that might work, which is charging with bloodletters on turn 1 with a bloodthirster close behind and whatever else following further back.
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Yeah, once they get into combat but they'll have a couple turns of shooting first. How does screening with chaff protect from shooting when you're running across the board? I had my enemy reposition for 2 turns in his deployment zone while he shot me to pieces, bloodreavers are only an inch faster. 320 - Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster 80 - Bloodstoker 320 - 30 Bloodletters - FC, Gore-drenched Icon 70 - 10 Bloodreavers - Reaverblades, FC 140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC 50 - Command Point - 980 What command trait and artefact should I take? I was thinking Unrivaled Battlelust and Crimson Crown. Also, I did some math crunching and I think the skullcrushers are better with ensorcelled weapons unless they're benefitting from KF. Or?: 320 - Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster 80 - Bloodstoker 140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut - Violent Urgency, Talisman of Burning Blood 140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC 140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC 140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Ensorcelled Axes, FC
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Retro, S*** for some reason I thought skullcrushers had 3 wounds each, so they are tougher but they don't have quite as many attacks. I see, so it's that extra command point that really makes it work? Because if I roll a 1 or 2 to run I will be out of the 12" charge threat range, assuming there's an enemy unit set up on the frontline of the enemy deployment zone. I'm concerned about charging the Bloodthirster alone. The way I see it, I can get a 1st turn charge with one of them and a 2nd turn charge with the other, but something is getting shot up but the crossbowmen either way. If I take these guys, I doubt he'll have his crossbowmen on the frontline, so I probably won't make it into combat with them until after they've shot. Praecautus, I still like gorecleaver on juggerlord because when he charges and wounds on a 5 it's 3 wounds and a 6 is mortal wounds, everything else is still -2 rend so it really eats through armor. What do you mean he can only shoot the closest unit? Zamik, I had a slaughterpriest, aspiring deathbringer, bloodstoker, 2x10 blood warriors, and 2x5 skullreapers. All but 3 of my blood warriors died from the first volley and the slaughterpriest wasn't going to be within range until my 3rd hero phase, which would've been far too late to disrupt the shooters. I had the same hope, but I think the slaughterpriest is too slow and he's not even reliable because I can't fit him into a gore pilgrims list in 1k.
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Yeah, I had the same thoughts. I only have 10 bloodreavers right now. How would screening help? He'd just shoot the units behind them, wouldn't he? I was thinking if I had enough bloodreavers I could survive the shots through numbers, but I'd rather not buy a horde of bloodreavers. I have 9 skullcrushers and a juggerlord, but even then I think the speed isn't enough because I wouldn't get a turn 1 charge and they take damage as fast as blood warriors but have less wounds per point. 320 - WoK Bloodthirster 140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut 80 - Bloodstoker 320 - 30 Bloodletters - FC, Gore-Drenched Icon 140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Bloodglaives, FC 1000 points. I think Violent Urgency on the Juggerlord and either Talisman of Burning Blood also or Crimson Crown on the Bloodthirster. I'm not too confident in the demon's ability to fly across the board, though. If the Bloodthirster can't run and charge, how does he charge an enemy that hasn't moved forward yet? If he moves 10" he'll be out of range for shooting and if he runs he won't be able to charge. The bloodletters will move 10-15" with an average of 11" charge. Does the +3" from the Bloodstoker increase the Bloodletter's threat range for charging? Anyone have any experience with Slaughterborn combo'ed with the WoK Thirster and Bloodletter bomb?
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I'm confused, both Devastating Blow and Outrageous Carnage are wound rolls, though I'm not sure where any changes may be to Devastating Blow.
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That's disappointing to hear, but good to know. I honestly can't see Mark of the Destroyer being OP on anything seeing as it's instant death if you roll poorly or fight something very tough, but I've never actually used it. So, unrelated, I got the chance to play a couple games this weekend against my friend and I got shot up by crossbowmen and was hoping for some advice. We had 1,000 points and he had 30 free guild crossbowmen hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and with rend on 4+ that killed everything. I was using blood warriors and skullreapers, but nothing made it to the swordsmen he had guarding his line. I probably won't face this list again, but in regards to heavy shooting what defense do we have? I don't think my skullcrushers would've faired better. I have a bloodthirster and ~50 bloodletters, but they're on old bases and I was hoping to use the new units.
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The errata reworded the artefacts of power: Page 81 – Artefacts of Power Replace the rules introduction for artefacts of power with the following: ‘If a Khorne army includes any Heroes, one may bear one artefact of power from one of the following tables: Murderous Artefacts, Banners of Khorne, Trophies of War, Daemonic Weapons, or Daemonic Adornments.’ This, to me, reads that Khorne heroes can take any option, regardless of being a demon or being a mortal. Also, does the Gorecleaver's ability to inflict mortal wounds on a 6 get increased with the Juggerlord's +1 to wound ability? The Gorecleaver does not say "6 or more" like the Juggerlord's axe, it simply says "on a 6."
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No, they can. Anything that only happens on a 6 will not be helped by KF, but Bloodletters say 6+. There are some things that are 6 only and not 6+, but they are uncommon. If Bloodletters have a net modifier of negative anything, their mortal wound effect will be negated, which is what happened to Coyote.
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That's correct. If you look at the Gorecleaver under Murderous Artefacts, it says "any wound rolls of 6 made with this weapon," and compare it to the Bloodletter's ability "If the hit roll for a Hellblade is 6 or more." Whenever it says "6+" or "6 or more" that indicates that it's effected by modifiers, so any negative modifier makes rolling a 6+ impossible, however, positive modifiers can make it effectively a 5+ or 4+ or better. When it just says "6" that means it is unaffected by modifiers.
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For sure, I saw that combination and can tell it's really effective. The problem I'm having is I really like Skullreapers. I have 10 and plan on using them as two units of 5. I can't fit another bloodstoker into my list and I'm worried about being unable to buff both units during the same turn. I've toyed with the idea of using them as a unit of 10; it'd be easier for buffs and slightly weaker for blood tithe (though these are not units that I want to have die, at least til the end), but units of 5 are much more flexible and much less threatening to the enemy. I've been able to find 3 solutions to the Skullreapers: Bloodstoker, Juggerlord, and Mark of the Slayer. The latter two can only be used on the charge, but I'm hoping they'll score 10 kills on the charge and then reroll to wound from then on out. Bloodstokers can only benefit a single unit, so I'd need a 1:1 ratio, which is rough with all the awesome heroes. The Mark of the Slayer requires 8" range and also provides reroll 1 to hit, which is redundant with the skullreapers who already have that and the blood warriors, too. The Juggerlord's ability can be used on up to 3 skullreaper units within 24" as well as himself, which leaves a lot of room. And, since it isn't a reroll 1s to wound, but a +1, it completely negates the chance of self-harm, and it gives a lot of my units 2+ to wound. This is the 2,000 point list I've been working on. 200 - Gore Pilgrims 140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut - Slaughterborn, Gorecleaver 140 - Bloodsecrator 100 - Slaughterpriest - Killing Frenzy 100 - Slaughterpriest - Killing Frenzy 80 - Exalted Deathbringer - Impaling Spear (or Bloodstoker) 80 - Aspiring Deathbringer 200 - 10 Blood Warriors - Goreaxes, Goreglaive, Icon 200 - 10 Blood Warriors - Goreaxes, Goreglaive, Icon 70 - 10 Bloodreavers - Meatripper Axes, FC 70 - 10 Bloodreavers - Meatripper Axes, FC 280 - 6 Skullcrushers - Bloodglaives, FC 170 - 5 Skullreapers - Daemonweapons, Soultearer, Icon 170 - 5 Skullreapers - Daemonweapons, Soultearer, Icon This list was originally 1930 points with only a single Bloodreaver unit and 1 of the Slaughterpriests had Blood Sacrifice. I thought it might be nice to have a constant flow of 1 blood tithe each turn to assist whatever was gained. I'm not sure if that'll be worth it, and I don't really want Bloodreavers, but I thought it might be useful to have some fodder running around. I'm not sure what to do with the heroes, the Exalted Deathbringer isn't doing anything except being an awesome, killy character, but when I have the Bloodstoker I'm not sure what to do with him. Maybe I'm underestimating the usefulness of a pocket +3" charge. I could remove a unit of bloodreavers, improve the aspiring deathbringer, and replace the exalted deathbringer for another slaughterpriest with killing frenzy, I just don't want to spam slaughterpriests. I could remove a unit of Blood Warriors and Bloodreavers and still retain my battleline minimum and gore pilgrim parameters, which would give me a lot of points to play with, but I don't know of any non-hero choices I'd like.
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Natural 1s always fail and anything that becomes a 1 after modifiers (such as a 2 with a -1) will also fail.
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So, if Skullreapers are benefitting from +1 to wound they cannot inflict mortal wounds on themselves? Their natural 1s will fail but not count as 1s? I understand that adding modifiers to 6+ abilities has an effect, but the Skullreaper ability says they take a mortal wound on the roll of a 1 to wound but does not specify natural or not.
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Is there any way to give a Juggerlord reroll to hit? Sorry, dumb question haha. So I might've mislead myself. I believed that if I used the Juggerlord's +1 to wound on the charge command ability on my Skullreapers they would be unable to roll 1s to wound and therefore be unable to harm themselves. But this isn't true? What I should be looking for is rerolling 1s to wound? A question about Gore Pilgrims and the Bloodsecrator, how exactly does the portal work and how do people use it? If I open it, can I move on the following turns and keep it open? Do people usually open the portal on their first turn and then follow the army on the following turn? Or do you run forward and open it on turn 2 in the center of the board and remain stationary for the game?
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Do 1s always fail, still? If a Juggerlord with Ghyrstrike uses its command ability to get +1 to wound stacked with the +1 from the weapon will he automatically wound all hits or will he still roll? I'm trying to figure out which 2 artefacts and which command trait to take, and on who.
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When something gives a unit +1 to hit or to wound does this negate the ability to reroll 1s? For example, Blood Warriors with Goreaxes blessed with Killing Frenzy. When they roll a 1 can they reroll it or does it count as a 2?
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Yeah, a 50/50 chance to get off an ability is no good and with only a 16" range to kill an enemy for a +1 to buff on the next turn, I wouldn't field one without getting the rerolls from Gore Pilgrims.
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Obviously everyone intends to use the items with the rules as written, I think it's just pretty unclear.
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Dan.Ford, That explanation does not help anything. I believe the correct way to use the Flowstone Blade is as follows: Roll a single attack die, if it's a 6+ it gets +1 on its to wound roll. Do this once for each attack that the wielder has with this weapon. Each roll of a 6+ to Hit buffs itself by +1 to Wound, but they do not buff each other. At best, with a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, you'll roll 4 6s to hit and then each of them will have a +1 to wound. Alternatively, you could use the Onyx Blade on the Bloodthirster for +1 to wound, use Juggerlord command ability for another +1 to wound, and Slaughterborn to make a 3rd attack hit. With 3 reliable attacks landing and +2 to wound, you're nearly guaranteed to cause the explosion of mortal wounds once, maybe twice. Dunno if +2 to wound on a 2+ to wound guy is worth it, though.
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So, taking a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage with Gore Pilgrims and 2 Killing Frenzys would give him 5 attacks hitting on 2+ and all 4+s will give all wound rolls a +1? That would be insane. The only problem I have with your interpretation is that the Flowstone Blade rule says "add 1 to the wound roll for that attack." It seems to imply the specific die, not the attack of the wielder. Shouldn't it instead read "add 1 to the wound roll for the attack."?
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That is what he is saying, yes. Personally, I don't know what the intent for that weapon's rule to be, but my interpretation would be "that attack" refers to the specific 6 rolled and not all of the attacks for that model. GW is ambiguous, though because sometimes an "attack" refers to all the dice rolled for a model when he fights and sometime it refers to each individual dice roll. I'd assume that after rolling a 6+ to hit, that specific die would be rolled separately and given a +1, meaning multiple 6s would just be multiple dice with +1 to them. Dan.Ford might be right, and if he is than I'll probably have to try a Bloodthirster backed by 2 priests since I've got an Insensate Rage 'Thirster sitting around. I've heard mention of WoK Bloodthirster being the best in general and at being the general. I've also heard that Gore Pilgrims are very powerful and I'm wondering if they're used together or are independently useful. Is Gore Pilgrims used in daemon or mixed armies (I assumed they were mostly mortal armies). Are WoK Bloodthirsters useful for mortal armies? If so, how? I like the +2 to unbind, but with 2 slaughterpriests, a bloodsecrator, and the brazen rune I wonder if a +2 to unbind is really all that important. What am I missing?
