Kharneth

I modeled mine with the rod and sort of regret it. The staff does mediocre damage, an average of 3 wounds inflicted before saves. The damage varies a bit, due to the 2d6 shots, but I don't think I've ever gotten more than 4 wounds with it. I thought I wanted the rod because I didn't want to be in combat, and that's still the case, but I find that running for extra distance is usually helpful because I use the LoC to summon demons. I find myself deciding that the extra distance is more important than the firepower pretty often. On the flip side, though I don't want to be in combat with the LoC, it does still happen. For perspective, Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors inflict an average of 2.5 wounds with their shooting attacks, so the rod is a bit more firepower than you'd get by summoning another unit of blue horrors. The curved beak and talons will deal 2.64 -1 rend wounds. The sword will deal 2.46 -2 rend wounds. The sword is superior against all but 6+ armor enemies and even then, it's close enough that I think the sword is more valuable than just the staff (obviously aesthetics can't be measured). Unless I'm missing something, it seems like a minor decision. I don't think you can go wrong.

I was talking Inferno vs Mutation, Bolt of Tzeentch is superior. I'm either going Inferno on LoC and Bolt on Pinks or Bolt on LoC and Fold Reality on Pinks. I know Fold Reality doesn't have a great target, but with an average of 6 killed each turn and only a single reliable Destiny Die of 1 I found I could only kill off the Pinks twice (they died before this, but if they were still alive I could only kill them one more time before they'd be nearly gone). The objective is 12" forward from both of our deployment zones. The furthest I can summon is 9" away from the enemy, meaning the blues that go the furthest they can go are only 3" in front of the objective. So you're right, IF he double turns, he'll likely contest and probably will take ownership of that objective. The gaunt summoner failed Infernal Flames on turn 2, 3, and 4 so it'll be nice to not fail again. I've seen him destroy that 25-man unit in a single turn. The ratling guns are spread across the board evenly like 6-12" away from each other. They can't all focus fire on a single target. From more than 9" away, they hit the Gaunt on a 5+. I know they're a threat, but if I take care of them early they won't be able to harm the Gaunt and so far he has not prioritized him. I've found he's particularly difficult to get off an objective prior to the end of the movement phase because he'll often have separate units. For example, first he had his Hellpit and Chieftan on the objective, I can't clear that. Then he had 2 ratling guns on the objective, which would require 2 different spells. I had other things going on then, but the point is it's not always a single-spell solution, though I am working to get this strategy down because I know how useful it'll be to clear an objective in the hero phase and then secure it with a summoned unit. We will most likely not be doing this mission again, but I've taken the advice to heart and will try to make use of it in the next game. I need to find the balance between controlling the battlefield and not spreading myself too thin. In every single battle with this enemy I will get to choose who gets the first turn as I have less drops. Is it better to get the first turn to get my summons out as far as possible or to take the second turn so I can be in range to nuke things?

On turn 1 I can generate 9 fate points, which means if I lose 6 pink horrors (avg swords+sacrifice) I can summon 20 blue horrors on the first turn. Or, I can summon 10 blue horrors and then on the 2nd turn I can summon 3 flamers with another 10 blue horrors. Funny that you say that about Tzeentch's Inferno because that was my original set-up before you said that LoC gets Bolt of Tzeentch because it's the best spell. It is, and I do like that set-up, but Inferno being the hardest to cast makes good sense to be put on the most competent caster. Bolt of Tzeentch is certainly not wasted on Pink Horrors. Of course, this is only if you have room for the spells. I only have room for 1 damaging spell in addition to Bolt and Glimpse. Unchecked Mutation has a more reliable cast and more reliable damage, so... idk. On my first turn, I killed 7 pink horrors and was able to summon 20 blue horrors. I had 10 blue horrors and 10 acolytes on each of the center objectives in addition to owning my home objective. I thought I had them secure, but his abomination killed 10 blues and then 10 acolytes during his double turn. My screen protected my LoC from the hellpit, but not the clanrats. Some issues I had that I can perceive having with your strategy, too... the blue horrors that I put on the border objective that I was able to secure, that would be the one that I don't abandon, once he gets a couple rats near it and in combat with my guys there I can no longer summon within range of the objective. In your scenario where I've only got 1 border objective protected by 10 blues and 10 acolytes, what are the other acolytes doing? Are they standing between the enemy and the objective to slow them down? I need to find a way to fight 6"+ off the objective so I can summon reinforcements on the objective. I have a lot of things going for me, his ratling guns mostly shoot acolytes because he doesn't like killing blues and pinks, the gaunt has -1 to hit and the LoC is either out of range or for whatever reason he doesn't target him. He shot him with a ratling once and might start doing it more, but right now his target priority is not perfect. Also, I think I can kill his ratling guns pretty quickly. The 25-man unit doesn't take battleshock, so I was thinking of targeting the chieftan and ratling guns first. I think I can kill the chieftan and all 4 guns in a single turn provided they're all in range and los. The idea of flying 10" with the LoC and dropping some blues 12" away was quite literally impossible during the game. I continually looked for opportunities, but with his grey seer camping his home objective and his ratling guns lagging behind, I had few places where the LoC could fit and in those locations he'd be vulnerable and wouldn't have any summoning locations in range that would've been worth the loss.

I battled my friend's 1,000 point Skaven list on Tuesday and will be facing them again on Sunday. Him and I plan to continue using these same lists until January when he will start shifting to his Maggotkin/Slaves army. Skaven Chieftan(?) with helmet that gives immune to battleshock within 3". Grey Seer with Vermintide that is consistently unbound. 2x10 clanrats, 1x25 clanrats, 4 ratling guns, and a Hellpit Abomination. VS Gaunt Summoner (no familiars, yet) with Arcane Sacrifice and Glimpse the Future. Lord of Change with Mark of the Conjurer and Bolt of Tzeentch. 2x10 Kairic Acolytes, 1x10 Pink Horrors with Unchecked Mutation (might swap for Fold Reality), Quicksilver Swords, and Chronomantic Cogs. We played Border War, which included an objective in both of our deployment zones that were each worth 1 to the defender and 4 for the attacker, plus 2 objectives on either flank of the center line each worth 2. I deployed first and chose to go first, not sure if this was the right decision. I wanted to secure the objectives as early as possible and knew that his rats would be fast enough to get to the objectives if they went first and then I couldn't summon on the objectives. When I took the first turn I ended up moving too far forward, securing both midline objectives with my Acolytes 3" behind and my blue horrors 3" in front. Moving forward like I did, lagging in the center with my Pink Horrors and LoC about 6" behind, I feel like I put too much stuff forward. On his first turn he was able to charge my blue horrors with his Hellpit Abomination. He also charged my other blue horrors with 10 clanrats on the other side of the board. Neither of his units were able to get within 3" of the objective on this turn due to my placement. His other clanrats ran forward swarming the center while his ratling guns killed some acolytes and blue horrors. Unfortunately, he won the roll-off and was able to go first on turn 2. I'm not entirely sure if my loss was due to moving too far forward or if it was due to this unlucky situation, though this happens to me pretty frequently. On his second turn his abomination and chieftan secured the left objective while 10 clanrats battled my blue horrors and another 10 clanrats battled my acolytes on the right flank. The large swarm of 25 charged my LoC and Pink Horrors. From here I was just continually pushed back. I was able to hold the right flank and most of the battle ended up being over my home objective, which was worth 1 point to me and 4 to my enemy. The game ended on turn 5 with extremely high casualties on both sides, but with him at 23 vp and I had 16. I had my gaunt summoner and 10 blue horrors remaining, he had 1 clanrat, his chieftan, hellpit abomination, 3 ratling guns with 1 wound, and his grey seer. What I'm wondering is where I should direct my damage, specifically the spells. I failed a lot more spells than I expected (Infernal Gateway rolled double 1s when I needed it and Infernal Flames was either unsuccessful or unbound for the entire game), but the spells that did go off primarily targeted the Hellpit. Due to failing Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Tzeentch dealing 1 mortal wound, and taking damage on the LoC before being able to cast again I was unable to deal significant damage to the Hellpit, which heals d3 wounds in its hero phase. I'm thinking next time I might focus on the ratling guns and chieftan so that he loses his ranged damage and can't keep his 25 clanrat unit immune to battleshock instead of focusing on the Hellpit. If I really want to kill the Hellpit I need to either deal 12 wounds to it in a single turn or be able to deal 15 wounds to it over 2 turns without him getting a double turn.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

I feel like the double-handed was added early and then when they changed their intention they missed the words and so they never got removed. Otherwise it's just blatantly adding confusion. It also frustrates me that the glaive sentence doesn't read "Three in every ten models in the unit can be armed with a double-handed Cursed Glaive" because it's written with plural glaives. I know what they mean, but the wording! 😅 The only counterargument I can provide is that the first step is to pick a) single blade, b) paired blades, or c) blade and shield. Then from here, 3 of them can be given a glaive as an additional weapon. So if you have all sword&board, 3 of them will also have glaives. Regardless of the way the rules are worded, it would feel unfair to tell my opponent he can't use his shields with his glaives since the models don't even come with two handed glaives.

"equipped with" and "armed with" are essentially the same thing. What GW expects to be used as rules and to be used as useless extra words is hardly clear. "A unit of Kairic Acolytes has 10 or more models. Each unit fights with a variety of weapons; some of the Acolytes are armed with a single Cursed Blade while others carry Paired Cursed Blades. Some instead carry a Cursed Blade and an Arcanite Shield. Three in every ten models in the unit can be armed with double-handed Cursed Glaives." When wielding the glaives, where does it say that we can also have a shield and/or not replace the shield? The way it's written, it implies that any single acolyte can be armed with a single blade, paired blades, a blade and shield, or a glaive. The idea that the glaive can be used with a shield is quite a leap without the support of the models' design and the pictures. I'm not saying that you're wrong or that I disagree, I just don't understand how anyone would come to that conclusion based on the wording of the text. (not arguing, just voicing my discontent).

You're both missing an important detail, in my opinion 😝. Are the glaives wieldable with a shield as the models and pictures indicate, or does the phrase "double-handed" mean to say that the glaive cannot be used with a shield? I agree it makes next to no difference.

Nothing updated, just RAW on the warscroll.

So then really the only reason not to take the glaives is if you don't want to differentiate between the -1 rend attacks and the non-rend attacks.

Sure, but if you take a 6+ save with the arcanite shield and you fail you're surely required to remove the guy with the shield. So you need to have enough shields to survive failing the shield save.

Odd. They're clearly referred to as double-handed. I don't really think it matters, I can't imagine someone giving you a hard time over that. Even in the pictures they're holding the glaives with shields, I wonder why they added that phrasing.

I never take them above 10 and always give them the Scroll and Vulcharc as they do not replace weapons. I don't believe you can use shields with the glaives, so you'll lose 3 shields. Maybe you can use the shields against ranged attacks? I assumed the "double-handed" description meant that it replaces the sword and shield.

I think Ogroid is going to be a useful addition. His Fireblast is a very good spell, it's basically an easier to cast Bolt of Tzeentch. I see the horrors as a bonus that makes it particularly useful around objectives, as you've mentioned. He's an arcanite wizard so he can be used to cast Glimpse the Future if I need the Gaunt Summoner to take something else. Lastly, he's got excellent combat stats for a wizard. I plan on using him to hold/steal an objective. I think using him with Treacherous Bond surrounded by lots of blue and brimstone horrors will make for a hard-to-secure objective. Your Lord of Change is so dark and colorful at the same time! Do you use it with the sword? How's that go for you, is it mostly for defense or do you often engage in combat?

Oh they changed it? But still, when/if you summon a wizard do you get to choose a spell for it to have?

When using the Ogroid Thaumaturge's Fireblast what type of horror do people create? Brimstone horror seems pointless as blue is better in every way, though I'd be tempted to summon a pink horror over a blue horror. Is there any reason to summon blue horrors (perhaps for the smaller base size?)? If I summon a Pink Horror will it get to cast a spell since it's still the Hero Phase? When I create Pink Horrors in this way, or through summoning (Herald as well), do they immediately generate a spell from the list? Creating a single Pink Horror that can now cast spells like a Wizard seems like a very powerful thing provided you still have uncasted spells.

To me it doesn't really seem to matter. I use mine with all shields and swords because their purpose is to die and the 6+ save from the shield makes them that much harder to kill. They don't really do damage, you could give 3 guys the glaive but I don't think it'd make a huge difference. There's no real harm in it, you'll probably lose the last 3-5 through battleshock anyway. I wouldn't take any paired weapons because you'll want at least some shields.

I assume those 6 mortal wounds are coming from Infernal Gateway? That's the exact scenario I can see that being used, also possibly for transferring the predatory spells to the enemy when you're done splitting horrors. Still, it's something I could do without. Doing 6 mortal wounds through the portal to a hero and then chipping a unit with 2 mortal wounds from unchecked mutation and however many from an extended infernal flames on turn 1 would be so mean!

Thanks, and I do agree. I had not considered spells in terms of their casting value before. I appreciate the analysis as I wouldn't know how to come up with damage based on casting rolls. I am also a bigger fan of reliability over spike damage, especially when the spike damage occurs randomly. Yeah, you didn't sell it as an infinite combo, I'm mostly just thinking out loud. With Pendulum and Burning Head you could get 15 slain horrors and drop 30 blue horrors without even dipping into fate points. I like your list as it's $25 cheaper and if I find my spell casting too unreliable I can then add the Blue Scribes to help out. Not sold on the spellportal, though I've got one enemy in particular I think I'll use it for, but there are other endless spells I'd like to experiment with (pallisade and shackles).

Sounds a lot like Blades of Khorne. I definitely chose my heroes based on their buffs, though most of them probably saw combat more frequently. Good to know, though. Thanks for all the help!

As far as I can tell, Pink Horrors are the most reliable casters (tied with Gaunt + Familiars) other than the LoC. They seem so vulnerable, though I'd be worried that Fold Reality wouldn't reliably last for when it's needed on the enlightens. That's a pretty awesome/sneaky tactic with the Fold Reality into Unchecked Mutation range, but why Unchecked Mutation and not Bolt of Tzeentch or Tzeentch Firestorm? It might be more worth it for me to take Balewind and Burning Head instead of the Blue Scribes since the Balewind Vortex will be the extra spell cast that I lost from losing the scribes and the extra kills from the Horrors might prove more useful for summoning than re-rolling spell casts. How many turns do you kill your horrors for summoning points past the first turn? There're only so many 1s for Destiny Dice and Fold Reality casts. I can't imagine you can afford to do more than 3 turns of this at most (unless you get really (un)lucky with destiny dice) without losing the units.

Oh thanks! I'm surprised to see that the shaman was not replaced with another hero. Who are you giving Fold Reality to, here? Do you pay any mind to the Burning Head's to hit buff? It seems really minor, but also seems to synergize very well with Pink Horrors. I'm guessing you're getting 30 blue horrors turn 1 no problem, yeah?

That's what I was thinking. Though being unbound is unlikely, it's too important to be successful with those spells on the first turn. mmimzie, what does your 2k list with 3 pink horror units and no shaman look like?

That does sound useful, but the starter box doesn't come with one. That'd be up to my friend as he's expanding, which sounds like it'll involve buying a lot of vulkite berzerkers lol. He'll have a Runefather (smiter or son) on Magmadroth, a runesmiter and runeson on foot, and 10 vulkite berzerkers. In terms of choosing a general, is any hero more suited for this role (I'd assume Runefather is the designed general) and in regards to the command traits are there any reasons why a general would be better off on a magmadroth or on foot? Or does the decisions mostly revolve around which command abilities you prefer?

Sometimes there is the advantage of having the option of using on command ability or the other in a given situation. Do lists often have extra command points either from battalions or points? Sounds like the smartest thing to do would be to make a Runefather on Magmadroth, Runesmiter and Runeson on foot (since those are not optional). I'm intentionally avoiding reading the Fyreslayer rules so we're both surprised by each other's armies when we battle. I might have to get him to look at the book and decide which command abilities and weapons he prefers.