Myrdin

Just in case some people dont know - There is a 30% off product discount going on at Mierce Miniatures due to BFriday. To claim the discount use the Voucher code: BLAEC-FRIDAY-2018 (I dont think the code is limited per single persn as this has been sent to all who apply for newsletter ) If you ever wanted to add some flavor to your beastmen, now would be a good time as usually the stuff from MM is very expensive (even more so then GWs) and without a discount I wouldn't touch it with a stick, unless I REALLY wanted something. With -30% off it actually becomes a fairly reasonable deal. I got some of their Bestigors and the mounted beastmen to use as proxy Dragon Ogors.

I´ve been using small units of 5 as well. The lack of Rending and further staying power behind 1st turn is something that is noticable. Dont expect big units to hold for long despite 2W each, they will crumble through Battleshock. However small fast units are great for harrasing your opponents back line, ranged units and warmachines, and for clearing enemy chaff, like the above mentioned undead puppers. Would be great if they didnt skimp out all of the characters from our army. We could have a Centigor Chief running around with them and buffing them with its command ability. Ah well, I still keep my hopes for some new future releases, be it old units with shiny new models (centigors would be prime for this) or some new units like some of our named characters making a return (I mean who wouldnt like Kolek Sun Eater, the ancient of all Shaggots to make a comeback ?!) For me personally Gorthor, Malagor, Kolek and Ghorros would be the top pic. Though honestly, seeing the new sculpts from AoS I think Slugtongue and Moonclaw on Umbralok (oooh beiby) might look insanely cool if they ever received models (and solid rules to go with them.

Yeah pretty much. Unless its a GW only tournament, you are safe. And considering most tournaments re mostly small local ones, with occasional big one (at least here in Europe) in between, I wouldnt worry to much about it. Some of the lads from our gaming group went to Germany last year for a tournament and there were all sorts of armies. Heck there was a dude who had entire Lizardmen army made of hand sculpted lizards .... very derp looking lizards..... very VERY derpy looking lizards So yeah, you are safe even if you use the whole gnoll model. Personally my army consists of Bullgors from Mierce Miniatures. My dragon Ogers are those pig riders from MM as well. My demon prince (though I might yet change my mind and make it into Shaggoth) is from Cadwallon. My second one is from "the Edge" table top game - Oracle of Wrath model, etc etc. I love the non uniformed look this gives my Beastmen, and honestly I personally dont care about any GW related tournaments so Win Win. Those tournaments I have either attended (small local ones) or want to attend (bigger ones around the EU) > none of them is "GW miniatures only" so, yeah. Consider what and where you want to partake in, and if the place/event doesnt have an issue with it, no need to stress and limit yourself when you are on a creative streak with your army

Huuu I like that ! I always wanted to make a full werewolf themed army since I love them humanoid puppers a lot. Glad I could be of help, hope your werewolf/wolf/gnoll army comes togather nicely !

They are pretty much the same size as your avarage ungor. Even the bitz mix well as the scale is the same. In the pictures attached you can see a Gnoll Command group built using bitz from Ungor box. You can even use Gor shields (not hands and weapons thogh), which make them look quite tough (kinda gives off the viking shield wall vibe ). Honestly, I love those little buggers. Once painted they can easily hold their own next to your other Beastmen.

BoC has quite the plethora of viable lists. Maybe not all of them super tournament competitive, but in a regular semi competitive game there most of the stuff in various combinations is quite viable. I have yet to play a game with the same identical list twice. As for Ungors - the only thing excluding is the Brass Despoilers, but otherwise they are quite good objective campers and herdstone sacrifices. Plus in big enough numbers they can screen rather nicely for those whole two units in our army that have range 2" (because of course huge bull monsters with two handed weapons are 1" !...... *salt increasing*). Personally I would not proxy Ungors for Gors (one of the reasons is the fact that your are not proxing them with a third party models but the actual Ungor/Gor ones, which can cause some unnecessary confusion) For Ungors I personally use the Frostgrave Gnolls, who are essentially filling out 90% of all my Ungors the last 10% are the actual ungors which came from the old battalion box back in the day. The Gnolls are nice simple sculpts with enough variaty in poses heads and weapons + they come in box of 20 for 20 bucks. Absolute steal ! They dont have horns, but add in a bit more variety being a different type of a beastmen.

Personally I would much more prefer what Gorthor the Beastlord has for his command ability, that comes at no artifical cost. Heck I would take a weaker version of what the BL has, without the "kill monster/hero for dual reroll", If I could use it anytime anywhere. One thing this army heroes lack, is a viable use of CP. Other then the Doombull buffing himself, or some nearby minotaurs, there is nothing really to spend them on other then what the core rulebook has to offer. And other than DB or Beastlord there is no other unit in this army that has any Command ability whatsoever (its a bit perplexing, sure Shaggoth and both Shamans are Wizards, and thus have their own unique spell, but that doesnt automatically mean they cant have a command ability as well. If anything one would expect Shaggoth having one.)

Where can we leave that feedback ? There are some units that require a bit of love. Units that are not mentioned are fine from my perspective and well balanced for their cost and role in the army. Beastlord - Drop the requirement for his Command Ability to kill a model before it can be used. Thats a really stupid one and is inconsistent, and Raiders - Should really be Battle line Warhounds - Should really be Battle line, and slightly cheaper. Cockatrice - is a prime example of nice idea but bad design. 50% chance to hit to deal 1-6 damage is a no. Especially since it cant even fight in combat its Petrifying Gaze should be the main selling point. The price is not the issue. The usability is. Its extremely unreliable and the damage chart is to random. Either make the damage 2D3 or improve the Hit rate. Alternativel A reroll once every 2 turns for either the Hit or the Damage roll would make it much better (once per 2 turns to not make it too good). Or allow it to be taken in a flock of 1-3 so you can at least charge them Jabberslythe - The Acid blood should activate on 2+ not 4+ since its been nerfed already to a single MW not D3 anymore. This by itself would fix a lot of its identity issues. Making its gimmick Aura of Madness is meh. I would like to see something else. Minus -1 Bravery to units within 12" and -D3 if in combat with Jabber itself would be much more interesting Gors - should be 2A base making them viable in both MSU and hordes. All things considered they are just butt naked bestigors with smaller weapons. But the "type of beastmen" is the same. If we wanted to go really fancy, the Paired weapon option is garbage and should be the same as for Tzaangors as in: +1 to Hit if equipped with paired weapons. Would at least make you consider it when compared to taking a shield. Enlightened - should be +20pts more for both mounted and dismounted so they are on par with Bestigors in price, since essentially they do the same thing albeit slightly different (yes I dont want only buffs, these guys are a steal at 100/140 pts) Skyfires - should drop in price. -20pts minimum. Personally I would like to see a dissmounted version like with Enlightened as well, but thats just me. Tzaangors - Slight decrease in price. 160 Would be about right Tzaangor Shaman - Same thing. -20/-40 pts. Reasons were already stated. Bullgors - need something. If nothing else drop to 140 so they are on par with Dragon Ogors. Personally I think just the price drop is not enough, but it would be a good start. Maybe upp their Save to 4+ to make them stick around a little longer. Though honestly I`d say they could use +1 attack to their Weapon profiles (not the horns), to they really feel like the Hammer they were supposed to be. They were always a hard hitting unit in the past, but currently they dont have that umpf anymore and are generally under-powered. And the two handed weapons should be 2" range. Its a 3-4 meters tall bull monster, no way it has shorter reach than a dude with a mace. Cygor - could use a little love. Something like +1 to hit for its Desecrated Boulder if it didnt move or the enemy unit being shot at didnt move. Alternatively dropping him to 160 might also work. (Though I`d rather it being more efficient than cheaper) Now I have issues with the Greatfrays as well (mostly all of Allherd could use a revamp. Nothing horrible but adjustments to make it actually good. Darkwalkers - the Desolate shard should not be a single use item for such a miniscule effect it does.) I will not get into the battalions, but some of them could use a little love, or price decreasing. Things that I have not mentioned are more or less fine from my perspective.

This is exactly what I said to a friend of mine. "Unlike other factions, BoC collectors are not really players, they ar farmers and ranch owners "

Well, compared to new stuff like Tzaangors (finally assembled my Enlightened and 3 skyfires. Bloody hell, those are some amazing sculpts, and the horns are super cool), or the latest AoS stuff they certainly do feel aged. Compared to the usual Beastmen stuff I think they do look old as well, but not as badly as when put next to the most updated shiny stuff. Would be really cool to get some BoC love and actuall KEYWORDED rules for these guys and all (since the named characters being "Legends" only left a lot of salt in my mouth and honestly was quite the let down.) But yeah, seeing thess guys, only reinforces my love for Beastmen as one of the coolest, most unique looking armies out there. I am still hoping that if BoC as a whole does well in the sales departmen, we might see some new units/named chars. with additionally released rules as add ons to the army. Like what the Khorne guys got recently - the big duded on even bigger dragon comes to mind. And with Slaanesh release drawing near.... Slaangors, (and Khorngors and Pestigors...) with their own proper and well thought of rules ? (I goatman can dream right ?) ......oooooh boy !

Honestly I never even knew we had an official BSB model up to this point. I converted mine from the metal casted Beastlord and a Ogre Banner with a bestigor axe. As for the pestigors, I think you might be a little to late. I cant find them in the shop anymore just like all the other stuff. It seems that it was a very time limited offer. Personally I would like to see Ghorros. Always liked the idea of a huge drunken horny Centigor who buffs your other centigors Though fluff wise my favorite would be Khazzrak. His rules aint that great but from the lore perspective I always like this cunning beastlord

So gents, If you noticed GW had a sale of the old Beastmen miniatures like Gorthor, Wargor BSB and such. Now this by itself is "meh who cares unless I want them for collection" type of info since these units were dropped from the current book anyway. Edit: Yeah ignore what I said... I was hyped for a sec thinking we will get some actual named character back. Nope aint happening. Coz BoC cant have nice thing *sigh*. None of that stuff is compatible with BoC, no keywords and the old Primal Fury is there. It would have been so cool to have Gorthor as the General though. A goat can dream.

Plus if you compare them to Enlightened who are 120 pts cheaper when in a unit of 6 (that price difference is LITERALLY an extra unit of Bestigors), those can deal more damage still, even without the rerolls. If you get those, they will not justf "finish off" big stuff like Nagash. They will "wipe stuff of the board period". Just for imagination - 3 of these guys wiped a unit of 5 Demigryph Knights. WITHOUT re-rolls or Tzaan shaman. Yes I rolled really well, but still. Thats 20 Wounds 4+ reroll 1 Save, just "poof"... gone. So yeah, I mean, its cool and all, but compared to Enlightened, for those 200 pts, I just dont feel them. They could be good with lower cost, but as they are now, they are overpriced and that fact can not be disputed.

My issue with Skyfires is that you NEED that 180 pts Shaman to tag along for them to do anything. But I like your comparison of them being light cavalry. In that context it does make sense to me. And I suppose they might be effective Warmachine/Ranged units hunters while also shooting at stuff. But I will not buy into their melee factor against melee dedicated unit or heroes. Against archers, war machines etc, I can see them being very effective, just like what Harpies used to be back in the WFB. Against "real" combat units, them hitting and wounding on 5+ even with rerolls is nothing to write home about, and the discs, while better (4+/3+-1) are way unpredictable. In a unit of 6, where you get 6 D3 attacks, yeah maybe, but MSU 3 bird squads.... no. On average its not that impressive. Damn.... such a shame that Dark Avenger is such a blunder. I wish we had some traits and artefacts that are actually dedicated to consistent buffing. While the Brayblast Trumpet is fun, being a one use only item is really not that impressive. (I tried it with a blob of 40 ungor archers, and as mentioned, its fun, but it lasts only one turn. Might be fun with a unit of 2x3 Skyfires and a Tzaan shaman, but thats 580 pts just for that.... ughh. Though it might be more feasible to pull off than 2 Cygors due to the unit footprint.).

So here is some theory crafting and experimental list building for those who enjoy these sort of things like I do. How to make Skyfires ACTUALLY work ? After discussing them with Pandamina (I think) last time I let that thought of using Skyfires roll around for a while and giving it some time, and thinking "outside the horned box" I came to a conclusion that you can make Skyfires work, and to a great effect.... at least on paper, that is (need to test it out, but all my Tzaangors atm, ale unasembled, and while I dont mind proxy playing one unit, proxying hafl the army is a no go for me.) But to achieve that effect, you would have to drop that which makes BoC .... well.... BoC .... and that is the Allegiance. This is a experimental CHAOS list that I put together, that emphasizes the use of Tzaangors, and works primarily against ORDER. Tzaangor Shaman - Dark Avenger *All units withing 10" get +1 to hit against ORDER. If you are not fighting Order, you can go with Lord Of War trait, though that one is much less reliable and much much less effective. But its usable against Death and Destruction soo... you know 2 Bray Shamans to give the army that necessary speed. With magic you want either Wild Rampage, or Tendrils of Atrophy, since you will be sticking close to your units, the short range of those spell should not matter much. For artefact I dont really care what it would be for this setup. If you so please, you can always take one Shaman as "BoC ally" and give him the Knowing Eye to get a chance at those extra CP. Alternatively since the Tzaan Shaman will attract a LOT of attention due to his buffs, giving him +1W might be also a good idea. 2x20 Ungor screeen who will die gloriously as martyrs, absorbing the charge from enemy units 2x6 Dismounted Tzaangor Enlightened. The "Beef" (or feathers ?) of the army. You know, standing behind the Ungors, bashing enemies with their staffs with their 2" 2x3 Skyfires. These guys will stick to that 10" bubble Aura of yous Shaman like your finger stick to each other after your new unused super glue decides to explode and transform your hand from 5 fingers into a single glued claw (seriously, always be careful when first opening a new glue). the last 80 points can be filled with 2 razorgors to hug objective. Yes this is a 1500 list. For 2K you can throw in some regular infantry Tzaangors to pad out the front lines, or add whatever else your black heart pleases (two chimeras can be pretty scarey and will definitely take the heat of your Tzaan General) The point is that as long as your Tzaan Shaman is alive, your surrounding Enlightened and Skyfires all hit on 2+ Which is pure insanity. even more so if you get to benefit from your Enlightened re-rolls, which will happen at least once/twice, as the ungors will go first if you charged, or the enemy will if they charged. And with your Skyfires shooting at 2+ as long as they remain withing the range of their Shaman, you should get plenty of leeway from them, might even try and snipe characters off the board since even with the whole -1 to hit from Look out sir, that would only negate the first +1 to hit buff, dropping them to 3+ and 2+ for the unit leader, instead of 2+ for the whole unit. I mean all of this is pure theory crafting, in how to get the most out of your Tzaangors, especially Skyfires who normally struggle much more to pay for their upkeep (200+ pts per unit).

Personally I already thought of using 2 big blobs of 30 Bestigors (just 2, who wants to spend 20 minutes moving your army around.... no thanks, if I did I would play tyranids....or orks..... or skaven....). Personally Enlightened on Discs 2 units of 6 would compliment them well. Or 2 chimeras, and couple of centigors to on the flanks. Though Yout might wanna add some dogs for cushion. The last thing you want is tha deepstriking BS unit Stormcast have with their Axes which deal as many attacks as there are models in 3", with two more wielding star maces (2+ to hit, reroll against chaos, insta D3+1 mortal wounds, on dudes who are 3W and 3+ each.... can also deepstrike and is -1 to hit in that turn.... who ever thought this unit is balanced, needs their ****** kicked in HARD) rush that blob of bestigors and wipe them of the table in single turn.

Where can I find this guy ? Youtube ? Would be interesting to see the strategies other people employ with BoC

I wouldnt necessarily say that. 1 less rend, and D3 instead of 3 damage is quite a big difference. To me however the utility of fly and actual 2" range of his Demon axe is what makes it seem worth the extra points.

When you Ally a DP from SoD, you can select one of the 4 Marks for him, or leave him unmarked. Each of the options gives him a little something something. No mark - if you kill stuff you get 1 W back, if its a hero or Monster you get D3 W back. Khorne +1 to hit, Nurgle +1 to Save, Slaanesh - can pile up and attack before the enemy during their turn, but can not attack twice, Tzeentch - becomes a Wizard, 1 cast 1 unbind, Arcane Bolt Mystic Shield. So yes, you absolutely can. I was considering the Slaaneshi one, but the Khorne one with a Demon Axe is to good to ignore. Thought about brinking a DB instead and have extra 40 pts, but the fact that this guy can fly and is faster swayed me to try him out.

I used a block of 30 in one of my games. Called them the "party goats" and pushed them in and out of my opponents striking range, taunting him with their sheer blob. Add one or two little mindtricks, and he was really scared to engage them. At one point these tu*ds charged his hero (some SCE caster who drop explosive potions or something), he dealt 3 damage to himself via the potions. The tur... I mean Gors. were UNABLE to chip even a single wound of him. But by that point 80% of his army was dead via ambushing Gorghon + Dragon Ogers on one side, and 6 man unit of Bullgors and a DB coming from ambush on the other. Given one more turn it would result in a total wipe. Granted this was mostly my doing. "Playing the player" so to say, and boistering the Gors presence for more than what they were - a distraction. A more seasoned opponent would not fall for that. Gor in this book currently as they are, are weak. Its not a horrible thing, it just means the balance didnt work in their favour and they got the short end of the stick (just like the Hounds did). All they really need is a little touch up (2A base is pretty much it. If they really wanna spice it up, make the Dual weapons be +1 to Hit instead of rerolling ones) for them to be a internally competitive option (they compete against both Ungors and Bestigors, and thats a really ****** place to be). Just accept it for what it is, and move on. No need to fret about it. Lets hope for a better version next time we get an update. (Just like Hounds... I really wish they gave them some nice gimmick. Like +1 to Hit, if the enemy units is already engaged in combat with another friendly unit. Call it "Pack Hunters", is fluffy enough and would make the hounds an interesting flanker unit.) If you want a cool looking unit, in a friendly casual game where you know your opponent tries silly stuff as well, bring them. *** I already tried 40 Ambushing Ungor Raiders and the Brayblast trumpet, Kinda fun, but very hard to fit in 40 when coming from ambush, 9 dudes were out of the Shortbow range. Granted I did put 10 Bestigors as buffer in front of them. Will be trying a unit of 40 spear Ungors in our next local mini tournament as a meatshield while while Chimera, allied Khorne Demon Prince, and msu bestigors will be the one to bring the pain. I think they might be very interesting. Especially if I can get the Marauding Beastherd to proc. Well we´ll see how things pan out.

^ This.....

Sorry I dont buy that. For 200 points you can build plenty of stuff that not only outcompetes, but straight out burries Skyfires into the ground. Great melee potential... Compared to what ? Gors ? Oh yes, they are quite great in combat then. Compared to what else ? Bestigors.... Enlightened ? Dragon Ogers ? Heck.. Bullgors even ? Quite a good joke. In all honesty I dont even have to go that far. A single unit of Enlightened can catch up to Skyfires, and in a single battle turn vipe them off the table. For skyfires to do that to the Enlightened you would need 2 turns minimum, hit all your 3 attacks and deal the maximum number of wounds per each D3. Just because somebody got lucky and did something does not reflect on the overall usability of a unit. A rare exception does not set the norm. I am really not trying to be a sarcastic ass here, but "polishing the tu*d and sprinkling fairy dust all over it" doesnt make it a brick of gold. A tu*d is still a tu*d. (why is a synonym for poop a banned word I do not know. Unnecesary censorship much ? ) I had fair share of that mentality in the 9thA forums, where a minority of vocal stubborn elitists pretended bad stuff in the Beastmen roster was great, didnt suck and everyone was just too noob to comprehend it. Just because they had some mediocre level of success with it, while the wast majority of people had plenty of experience to prove it statistically completely incorrect. You are free to disagree though. As mentioned I love the models, and the idea of Birdmen snipers. However once I saw the unit transitioned to BoC book, and how marginally worse it got from before, and against what other choices it competed, this was a conclusion I didnt want to arrive at, but have arrived nonetheless.

The reason why I think the Crusher is really bad is that it does not only cut your number of attacks, but also offers no rend whatsoever. Now this depends strongly on your local meta. Mine is LOADED with Stormcast Eternal, so anything that does not have a rend, is automatically disregarded when building a list (I am not super competitive, but I dont want to be a cakewalk for my opponent either.... I had enough of that playing WFB and 9thA. In AoS the Beastmen are actually a force to reckon ). And against non armored opponents like DoK, I think the Dual Blades are better option. This is the one thing where I think the Bullgors are better. -2 Dmg 3 on their great weapons. Yes worse hit rate and one less attack, but that -2 rend is extremely important. Yeah I know. The spice is not really there. But I think if the crusher was DMG3 or Rend 1.... Then with their better profiles and lower cost they would straight up sh*t all over Bullgors, the potential 1in6 MW be damned. The 2" Range I think does factor in when you consider their base sizes. And Its nice to have the option of running 4+ Save Gor screen (though then again... ungors are better for that.). I Think the Crusher *might* work, if you could get them a consistent -1 Rend, but magic is fickle and you cant ever fully rely on it. Personally I would have made Crushers a -1 Rend, but With 4+ to Hit.

Was that with the on foot, or on disc version ? Actually thinking about this... Running a line of 20 ungors with 6 dismounted Enlightened semi bubble-wrapped by them, and a Bray Shaman to make them surge forward.... Hmmm... 120+200+100. 420 Points. Thats not bad, considering the damage output the Enlightened can do, and the 20 Ablative wounds-Ungors to soak a round or two of punishment. And by the time they are dead, the Enlightened should have dealt with the opposing unit anyway. With a bit of luck the Shaman will pull off Wild Rampage or Tendrils of Atrophy to help out a little. Now this is something I have not seen mentioned anywhere but - What Base size do you guys use for Tzaangor Enlightened on foot ? Infantry Tzaangors are on 32mm ones. Enlightened on discs use the 40mm, but what about those days, when they stove the disc into a garage and take a refreshing walk around the neighborhood ?

I do agree a lot with what you are saying. Enlightened should be min 120 on foot (so they are an equal alternative to Bestigors since the damage output of these two is comparable) and 160 on discs. They are very good, extremely versatile and straight up better than Bullgors or Dragon Ogers when all factors are considered. 120 pts on foot and 160 on discs is the sweet spot, to make them still a good choice, but more fairly priced. Seeing what happened with Skyfires, overpricing them way to much, would be a fools errand. Seeing as GW is extremely incompetent when it comes to balance issues, I hope the nerf hammer wont fall to strongly on them once we get a book update in who knows when. Skyfires need a MASSIVE price drop. Look at Blood Stalkers for DoK, those girls are 160 and they are a dead non pick in almost every single DoK list I`ve seen. When talking about a good "monster infantry ranged unit" the best I`ve seen so far are the Ushabti Archers from the Tomb Kings Warscroll Compendium. IIRC: 4W 5+ save, 24" Bows 4+/3-1/D3, 120 pts 3 combat attacks. And against attacks that are only Dmg1 they add +2 to their Saves. You are not shooting them down unless you pour everything you have at them, and even if charged these guys can hold relatively well in combat against less armored units. Frankly 120 pts is the absolute steal for this sort of unit and the ideal points range for Stalkers and dismounted Skyfires. This unit is fantastic all around (plus I always liked the Ushabti miniatures). But I digress, enough fanboy-ism, back to the Skyfires As such I would like to see the Skyfires drop back to 160, because right now they are trash tier. 3 Shots on 4+/+3+ are massively inadequate for a unit of this price tag (again same with Blood Stalkers and those are a lot cheaper in comparison). At those odds even that D3 dmg is not that impressive. In regards to that I would like to see some consistency, and a "on foot" version for 120 pts introduced, just like the Enlightened. At that point I would consider them as a viable option (3 shots for 120 is still quite rough of a sale especially since their passive moved over to the Shaman, but at least you are not drastically overpaying no more). Its a shame really as I do love the Skyfires visually (I do all tzaangors tbh. Its refreshing to see something not Goat/Bull like in the army). TLDR: Bump Enlightened (discs/no discs) to 120/160 pts, Drop Skyfires to 160 and introduce a 120 pts dismounted variant to go in line with the dismounted Enlightened. Bam, balance has been restored tot he universe. Now lets talk about how to make Cockatrice actually worth a damn .... jk, it needs some love, but not gonna go into it here (just wanna say this: 50% chance for 1-6 dmg at 10" ? Nope. Improve the hit rate to a 2+ or make it D6+1 for every 5 models in that unit who are in range, then we talk. Its way to unreliable to be worth anything). So: Dragon Ogors I`have been using these guys in almost all my games and as such I believe I should be able to give somewhat reliable feedback. First off I have always used a unit of 3 with Draconic cleavers. Why ? not enough models, and the Cleaver has -1 rend. It is the superior choice for a vanilla build. Can easily imagine running two units of 3. From What I`ve seen, they are tough. For 140 pts you get 15W 4+ on a platform that can actually punch back a little against weaker units, unlike chariots who are comparable in function but have even less of a damage output. In my last game against Free People warscroll compendium (the old Empire, for those of us who remember). They soaked a round of shooting from a Hellblaster Volley Gun, and two round of shooting from a 10 man unit of Muskets, while locking a 20 man strong unit of swordsmen and a unit of Greatswords in combat with them, allowing my army to do other stuff. 140 points of pure "WORTH IT." BTW: Empire as a whole is a very strong compendium. Chicken riders are weaker, then they used to be, but the army as a whole is very nice. If we continued he would wipe most of my stuff from the board, but I played strong on objectives and board control (learning from you guys, cheers ) so there was no way for him to come back (it was some 15+ vs 5 for me at the end, points wise). The nice thing about Dragon Ogers is also their perceived threat - they feels scary. Most people subconsciosly have a certain amount of respect towards them even though they are not so killy. This playes into two parts, they either focus them hard > Great, fairly cheap, tough sacrifical unit, or they try to avoid them > again, great now you have them running free, doing whatever. Have not yet tried the Shaggoth, but as far as Dragon ogers are concerned a unit of 3 is easy to fit into many lists, and they bring enough value to not be a dead weight. Use them as anvil to tie stuff down or become a fairly tough roadblock, that can also retaliate somewhat. Dont expect them to outdamage the Enlightened or pack more umpf then Bestigors. But if you want a spiky log to throw under your opponents feet, Dragon Ogers are what you are looking for. (Always equip them with Draconinc Cleaver. The dual blades can work depending on the setup and enemies you face, but the Crusher is pure garbage weapon. No rend no increased range, and reduces you attacks to 3. Just dont) EDIT: Just read this after myself - I forgot to mention. The Draconic Cleaver has range of 2" Thats just another reason why this option is soo much better than the other two. You can make good use of the Ungor screen, should you desire to do so.