Myrdin
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I think you might say, that they truly start showing their worth in lists that include more than 6 Enlightened. Lets say you run 6 En. and 6 Skyf behind with Tzhammy sandwiched in between, or a unit of regular infantry Tzaans
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Personally I would not play 4 of them, unless there is a reason (army that requires lot of MW for us to deal with). Its 400 pts after all. And if you are running with 2 Cygors and group of Raiders, that 1K points of non reliable units, without the addition of heroes and some core choices. Plus there is a severe lack of CC punching force in a list like that. I think 3 are the sweet spot. While with 2 you have only 50/50 chance of doing something (4+ to hit for D6 dmg), with 3 you should get a more reliable damage per turn output. And instead of the 4th one, spend 80 pts on a screen unit (hounds/centigors), and the rest should go to combat oriented units so you can create threat presence around the objectives. Such a shame the Cockatrice doesnt have slightly better stats for Combat (3+ to Wound on all its talons as well, rather then just on the beak) Alternatively instead of 2 Cygors, 3 Cockatrice and a single Chimera might be also pretty interesting. Chimera can do well in combat, thus people wont recklessly charge it, and combined with the 3 Chickens to back it up, they should evaporate anything that comes with the range of the MW shooting..... Hmm... yeah I am liking the sound of that. Need to get 2 more cockatrices before i can test it out (or just might prox them with my Preytons, whom I wish we could legally use in our army >< That model is so Beast of Chaos, you would be hard pressed to find anything that gets as close to the theme of this army as a Preyton)
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I have yet to test it, however running a flock of 3 Cockatrices might not be a bad option. They are fairly cheap, and suck in combat, and while the MW output is quite random (4+ D6), thats why you want 3 of them. Downside is you dont run them as a single unit, but if you keep them close to each other, through out the game the 3 crazy chickens should be able to stare to death pretty much anything bar things that save against MW. For extra protection throw a screen of Hounds or Centigors in front of them and keep them at the flank you wish to evaporate. Combined with Enlightened in the middle and possible a block of Raiders as supplemental shooting, this could offer surprising amount of short to medium ranged fire that one does certainly not expect when running against Beastmen. And since the chicken fly, they can close in fairly quickly. What do you guys think ? Anyone crazy enough to test another theory of mine ? (Tzaanhorn [Tzhaman + dirge horn] strategy seemed to work fairly well).
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Fuh, thank god the site is back up. Was getting the "community does not exist" error for the last couple of days. As for Razorgors, they are great for unsuspected objective rushers. In the discussion x pages back I already talked about them in more detail. Pretty much > dont expect much from their combat potential. You might be tempted to take a big herd of 6, and go for the mortal wounds, but once you crunch down on the numbers You`ll quickly find out that the damage output is not that high and in those numbers they start to feel equal to things like Dragon Ogors, who have both better save and more steady damage going for them. Razorgors are best kept in small numbers, cheap and hidden in plain sight > meaning keep them around big units, never put them into threatening positions and never draw attention to them. Be one with the table, embrace the path of Pig Ninjutsu. Creep them forward slowly but steadily and once the time is right, let them charge forward to the objective and take it from your opponent when they least suspect it. Razorgors are the masters of subversion. Especially in single model units. Unless pointed to, the amount of flak and attention they take is very small, thus making them for good surprise unit. They dont do badly on flanks as well. 2 of them can force your opponent directing some of their own fast moving forces to pay more attention to them, which in return opens up some breathing room for rest of your units. As for a good substitute model for Razorgors > Mierce Miniatures have fantastic overgrown boars, and often offer discounts on various items in stock, if you are subscribed to their newsletter and patient enough. I got 4 of theirs myself, and 4 more as the mounted ones (wanted to turn them into Dragon Ogors, but lately have been rethinking that idea due to the new Shaggoth proxy models that have been coming out from various companies and the fact that the pig riders dont have an adequate Shaggoth substitute thus the miniatures might cause unnecessary confusion.)
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I noticed this as well and was thinking whats the reason for it. If skin wolves get updated warscroll or at least a FAQ stating BoC keyword... yeah, were in business!
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What would you say are their strengths and weakness ? I haven't yet played against them, though I will sooner then later as there is bunch of people getting into BoK. I went through their book and from what I can see so far, they have more and better synergies than us, are in general more punchy as well. Not sure about damage absorption, I`d say its a bit better than us as it relies less on masses and is more elite oriented. Speed seems to be a bit of an issue and with some exception on their side, BoC seem much faster (especially our Brayherd stuff). While we can deal some damage to them, they do it better (exception are enlightened of course). Plus we do have some ranged presence available while theirs is even less, if any at all... So my guess is, throw cheap stuff at them to slow them down and chip at their model count, while our fast one gets objectives. We do have some good big monsters so utilize those for murdering their characters, and specialists. Or something like that. I am purely theory crafting here at the moment.
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A food for though: How do you guys deal with deal with the Blades of Khorne armies in 1500 and 2K lists ?
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I took one against Karadron. Bubbled him into Ungor raiders and had the whole thing as a "Beastmen mobile missile battery" xd He was surprisingly good. Yes he is a bit random with 4+ to hit an D6 dmg, but he is relatively cheep and has plenty of wounds. His range dropping as his W decrease its something I would like to be gone in the next version of our book though. Overall I was lucky, he hit 3 of his 4 shots (1 per round), shot down the big Karadron zeppelin then charged to finish it off. His full potential wasnt realised due to my opponent not having any casters, but even so it was fun and refreshing to us it instead of a Gorghon. Combined with a Ungor blob my Karadron friend was flabbergasted at my Beastmen over shooting his Karadron XD. The key with Cygor is > dont expect much, bring him for fun, and pad out the 180pts handycap with some other reliable units. (no Tzaangors have been used in that game though. My list overall was rather derpy, with Razorgors and Jabberslythe in the mix ^^) Oh, and dont forget to shout "Roaaar" and gesticulate throwing a massive boulder whenever you roll the To Hit dice ! The possitive mojo and Cygorly attitude is part of the fun
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Well technically you can go MSU with Bestigors and Ungors, however for Raiders you want the maximum number a unit can get to have those reroll available for as long as possible. Honestly unless you want to go full big blob units, there are ways to build the army, but if we are talking about volume of models to paint, then yes, the Brayherd route will require quite a lot of them even if you run MSU. A mix of Dragon Ogors, Tzaan Enligh/Skyfires as your main core part will give you plenty of wounds, in as small frame as possible and is also fairly small number of models to paint, though they are more detailed so some time might be consumed on you painting them up more then the regular standard you have set for yourself. Once you have that core block, you can always sprinkle in more numerical stuff like the above mentioned Brayherd units. Chariots are also a good way to go about your business if a small body count army is your objective.
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Not only did everything (that had a model) came over ...*cough cough except harpies, cough*, but we also got a bunch of "new" stuff (Dragon Ogors, Chimera, Tzaangors, Cockatrice and such). Things we lost were things that didnt have a model like Beastlord with shield, BL on chariot, Shaman on Chariot and Razorgor chariot (mostly chariot mounts, but normal chariots we still have). As someone who came from WFB to AoS as well, I must say, even despite loosing some things (hopefully we get some new ones added over time as well) overall the army is much better off then it used to be in WFB, and the new Dragon Ogors and Tzaangors are fun to use.
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Your paintjob is very nice. And I do like the bases. Very nicely done. As for the sculpts, I am not a fan of those, essentially they look extremely stiff, like if they suffered from torpor. While not the ugliest sculpts out there, they certainly aint the best of the crop. And I remember people criticizing similar point as I have them even back in the day when the Dragon Ogre kit was released.
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Yeah thats true. I mean we can always hope (I keep my hooves up for new, amazing looking Khorn/Pesti and Slaangors that can both be added to their own God armies, as well as to us. Would be amazing to have all of these back. *I already dreamt up how they could be setup model count/stat and rule wise for each of them to be unique in their own right and yet not make our other choices obsolete. Both Pestigors and Slaangors would be easy to do. I drafter several variants of these units, always filling a certain role and never have pushed out our other choices into obsolesce but no matter how I tried to spin it, the Khorngors always came to a point where they made Bullgors into overpriced beefstakes (which they are honestly. Bullgors are pretty lackluster when compared to our other choices like Bestigors, Dragon Ogors and Enlightened). I can post the profiles pages I made for them just for the lolz...but I digress It would be cool to get harpies back. Damn I have like 40 of them from the old days of Warhammer Fantasy, now they just collect dust. I can see them having a proper Deep strike ability like other units of this type and the adequate profile for a cheap, swift harassment unit with one or two unique abilities of their own. Its not that we lack any mobile units, but having more choices would be nice. Plus we have no actual Deep Strike (I wish the FW Chaos Monsters had BoC keyword... ahh Preyton :3 ) so one unit of this type wouldn't be a horrible thing.
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Well its not like we have a unit entry for such a unit. Plus the keyword thing. Unless they would be part of SoD.... or we get to see some new BoC releases after the Battletome, as we`ve seen with some of the other armies. Nice Centigors btw. though they seem to have same issue as the first one I made > It looks like you`ve cut out to much and the Gor torso seems a bit too deep set into the bottom body. As a buddy of mine commented on the first Centigor I made "it looks like it got hit by a sledgehammer and upper torso got pushed into the bottom one." The Bestigor doesnt seem to have this issue though so that might be just an issue with the picture taken.. That Elk headed beastman coversion is a pretty great idea for the left over heads ! I realy dig it !
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I see ! Thanks a lot both of you. I was still confused on this part but now it been finally cleared for me. That makes the Battalions much more attractive for the God armies (though it doesnt offer BoC much really). I can certainly see the appeal of some of our units in a setting where they can benefit from "this or that" that the God army has to offer. Centigors seem to be a great addition for both Khorne and Nurgle due to their speed (tough admittedly not sure how much do the Fleshounds outperform them if at all). Just to bad we cant get our hands on some of their stuff, but at least you can technically go Fully BoC under a designated God so at least thats something (unlike the ally limit I was thinking off).
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I might be missing something, but for the Nurgle theme battalion army.... you are not getting any of the Nurgle buffs. You cant ally Nurgle into BoC, you can only ally Nurgle marked (battalion) BoC into Nurgle,.... just like with every other Chaos God (and the thing I was so angry about when it comes to consistency). So yeah while you get Nurgle keyword you are not getting any of the benefits. That is, if we are talking about a 2K list, because you can only bring so many BoC as allies into another army. So no +2 for nurgle, no blades of Purification, no nothing. Unless the main army is Nurgle and BoC are only allied into it. At least thats how the things have been interpreted up to this point rule wise as far as I understand it. I would love to be proven wrong though.... Malal knows that it would open so many new ways to play this army if we could ally in Chaos Gods stuff with all their buffs targeting their chosen gods keyword (thus our Battalion marked BoC)
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Personally I think its a shame that none of the monsters other than Warherd ones are part of our Batalions, not even the God dedicated ones. One would expect Jabberslythe to be a Nurgle friendly thing. Giant being universally markable to any god, Chimera does give of the Khorne/Tzeentch vibe and so on and so on. *Honestly the Nurgle Batalion would be very amusing if Razorgors could benefit from it. Suicide boar bullets all day long xd
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For those 40 points you can add in "Razorgor the mighty!" Brick of 30 does save some points and adds lot of meat on those bones, but moving it around is a bit tricky and maximizing the damage output even more so, unless you get the perfect charge with lot of extra movement to pile in as many as possible. Funny enough i think the best format for Bestigors is the one thats the least points efficient > 20 man strong unit. I played with all 3 unit sizes and this one seems to most optimal for on table deployment, presence pressure and grinding. You get enough bodies to wither down a lot of flak the enemy will throw your way, and also still pack quite the punch, especially in charge. MSU units of 10, needless to say, are a great way to play this unit at most times. @SwampHeart What happened that the Pendelum was a dead weight ? Personally I favor it over other predatory spells as, if your opponent gets the turn, they can be turned against you, but with Pendelum they cant rally do much. Its like a shotgun, throw it down close to the unit you wish to hit > hope for a good roll > do damage > stop caring about it, unless you want to dispel and re-use it again.
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Depends on how much nonsense you want to deal with I have 4 of them and usually tend to bring at least one to almost every game I play as a objective rusher. Seldom does the opponent pay attention to a lone piggy minding its own bussiness just for it to ninja the objective away when they are not looking haha. I was playing around with the idea of running a pig herd, but the fact is that outside of a charge, the damage output is not that great, and even in charge, unless you get lucky and roll a lot of 6s, those 4+ to hit dont really cut it. Also no battalion makes use of them (nor any other monster for that matter) and as such there arent that many ways to buff them. So rather than fighters use them for their subversion skills in sneaking, oinking and ... CLAIMING WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY YOURS ! *lightning crash !* .... ahem sorry, dont know where that came from XD. They are cheap, fast and disposable. Play them like that and the piggies might surprise you when least expecting. At least thats my experience with them. After one pig climbed a wall (spider pig) and tied down a Burning chariot of Tzeentch for my big stuff to charge it and wipe it off, and in a different game another stealth moved its way onto an objective, playing Ninja and holding it until the end of the game (thus winning me the game by 1 point) I warmed up to these furry, oinky bacon strips with bad temper and a peculiar ability in subterfuge
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THIS. All other armies that have them, get hounds as Battle line, only for us they are not. And as such they have no real place, since they are clearly outclassed by Centigors. If you REALLY dig deep and try to find at least "something of value" you end up with the same thing every time > the only thing they can provide is a wider screen since you run 10 1W models instead of 5 2W ones. Thats literally it. If they were Battleline they might at least see some game time here and there. Sidenote: I admire you dedication. I just finished the first 5 I had started a while ago now (procrastination is a thing lol), though they still need to be painted. Next I wanna try making some female ones from the Sisters of Thorn box, but honestly, while I would love to have some nice 30-40 ish customized, big beefy, cool looking Centigors, its just way to much work >< I wish GW did some update on some of the BoC line models .
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You have pretty much a solid, oldschool WFB army right there. Only things you lack, in my opinion is something fast and speedy (other then Tzaangors, you want those doing their own thing, not camping ground) to capture "the flag". Razorgors, Chariots and Centigors. Now admittedly > All 3 of these are either super ugly, super old, super expensive, or super all of 3 of them in one. Especially pumbas and centaurs (pig and the drunkards). Personally I use the Pigs from Mierce miniature, those are nice big n beefy, and look pretty darn great (plus allow for customizations due to how the surface is done in a GS friendly way). Centigors are a bit of a tricky ones. They are old AF, expensive and GW doesnt really seem to care about the fact that should they update them, BoC players would literally throw stacks of cash at tham. So you are left to your own devices. Either convert some (like most people tend to do.) or try and get some proxies from elsewhere. As for Chariots > orc boar chariots tend to be cheaper then the Beastmen one. Especially on secondary market like Ebay. And for the crew you can easily use some leftover Gors, Bestigors and some extra bits to pimp it up. But as I said above, I think you have a VERY solid core here and can easily build multiple strong functional lists out of it. With 2 DB and Gorgons you can go with Bull centric army and go smash face and claim names, while taking some MSU ungors and bestigors for support and objective holding. (Be sure to pack the Khorne Brass Battalion though. 4+ on minos is a big detriment and the BB does mitigate that to a degree.) With Tzaangors you can embrace your inner Tzeentch and dominate the board with fast moving hard hitting pieces, again take the small guys for support and objectives. Or you can go full old school, take big blob of ungors, bestigors and raiders, fill it out with a monster or two, and sprinkle more random stuff on it just to see you opponent shed tears when he counts the amount of bodies he needs to cut through to win (not exactly Skaven style, but still pretty doable). OR build anything and everything in between. Sure some things are more or less viable, but the beauty about the BoC book, especially for someone like me who had this army for some odd 7 years or so, is the fact, that our options have been increased by a lot and you can literally mish mash whatever lifestock you Inner Landowner and animal herder desires. And even some weird combinations can actually pull ahead a victory with the overall state of the army being better then any time before.
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Personally I would replace those 3 Bullgors with some cheap stuff to hold objectives. It has been said a lot of times by different peole who tried them, and the conclusion is always the same > just 3 of them dont work. I think ungors/raiders, some chariots, centigors or even razorgors would serve you much better since you need something to run and sit on an objective. Unlike Dragon Ogers, the Bullgors require numbers and lot of babysitting with buffs via spells, heroes, and artefacts to really make them worthwhile. The +1 to Hit, and lover cost is quite the difference despite the Bulls having Dmg2/3 and chance at MV (the 4+ to hit and low number of attacks combined with the increased price cost is what makes them hard to justify). Also I agree with Swampheart on the endless spells. Drop the direflock and the palisade and get a Pendulum. Or just get more units, since this and the Bullgors would free considerable amount of points for you to pad out the list with something quick and coming in good numbers / or the Thunderscorn battalion since you are already investing into the DO already. Now if thats all the models you`ve got, then of course pay no heed to me and just play what you have.
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Khorne is great if the units that are part of it are units you want to play anyway. Has good simple effect. Nurgle is boring because you cant take Razorgor or Warhounds. The effect itself doesnt really offer anything amazing (if it was D3 then maybe). Same with Slaanesh. The fact that its ARTEFACT hero only, makes it super pathetic. If it was just HERO in general there might be some semblance of attractiveness for it. Tzeentch, doesnt really do anything amazing either, but people take so they can one/two drop the entire army on the table. Which is the sole use for this one. None of the battalions makes any use of Chimera, Warhounds, Cockatrice, Giants or Razorgors. Which is REALLY super lame.
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The fact is that Allherd would be really good, of only a line here and there was dropped. The weapon should start with basic -1 Rending at all times. and -2 at enemies models being 10+ so just reducing the requirements by one tier. The ability is also good but the limit of your Hero to be within 3" is meh. The one with battleshock is ALSO good.... if only it wasnt tied to the battle round you are currently in (this one is janky AF, I dont really understand the wording tbh.) Allherd would be great if only small touch ups were done. Darkwalkers: trait is meh, +1 to run is nothing of interest. If it was +1 to run and charge now we are talking. The Desolate shard is a joke of an item. One use, on 4+, D3 AND the enemy must be close to a terrain piece.... yeah right. Drop the One use and then we`ll talk.
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I am referring to different people clearly not reading (or maybe just ignoring), that I CANT take Ungors, and yet they are suggesting I swap this and that for Ungors.I am well open to other ideas, as stated with the Gnarlblade Beastlord, or Tzaangor Shaman. So I am open to alternatives to this list, but ones that do not include ungors or standard Tzaangors (the first one I dont have at hand, the second one I dont have at all). For the Tzaaman I guess dropping one unit of Centigors and Replace one Bray Shaman would be the best move. Also, is there a point going Allherd for the extra summoning even when I dont have the Eye to get extra CP ? Since its a small scale game I think CP wont be really that useful for combat related purposes. The best use I can see is to guarantee a 6" Run for unit that tries to grab objectives. And some people did say that summoning in low points games can be quite powerful. ....Or should I skip going BoC alliegance and go with Chaos instead ? Would loose Herdstone and Ambush, but could do something better with Traits and Artifacts maybe... ?
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It would be nice if people started reading the whole text, not just taking a quick look and comment on it...
