Myrdin
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@Great Bray Tom As for my, I would swap those Gors for 1x10 Bestigors Use the remaning points to get a two units of ungors for objective holding. Place your Herdstone close to an objective if possible (there are scenarios where you know where the objectives are, others you do not), The Shaman will hold the objective while sacrificing on unit of ungors for summoning points. The other should hunker down around the second objective you plan to hold. Use Bestigors to threaten around your weak side. Also the monster mesh, while it gets a +1 for cool factor, is a lot of points tied into fragile monsters. One of them will die before it gets to combat. Most likely the Chimera. Gorghon willbe focused next. I would drop he Cygor and get Dragon Ogors, who for less points are more efficient. Depending on how many points are left over you can considering adding units or upgrading some of them into better ones (as in instead of 1 unit of ungors you add the extra points and got with 1 unit of Bestigors), or maybe looking into an Andless Spell. Also - Titanic fury is really only usable with the Chimera. The spell is not great as it adds attacks for weapon profiles. Great for Chimera, bad for all the other big guys. If you still want a spell to invest into the big Gribblies, go with the -1Save Reroll To Wound rolls. The big mosnters will be focused fired anyway, so the amount of attacks will drop regardless due to the Wound chart, but unlike Titanic fury its less Chimera oriented, and can be used on pretty much anything in the army.
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Just thought I` d give you guys who are looking for alternative miniatures to the Bullgors a shout out. Just got a newsletter from Mierce Mini whom have a "buy one, get one free" promotion, starting, where if you buy any monstrous infantry type unit from their store you get one additional of your choosing for free (if the price is same or less than the one you are buying). Thats a pretty darn good deal, as these guys make some amazing miniatures. I myself already have some 12-15 of their Minotaurs, which look amazing and have more realistic body proportions. They also have Bear/Hippo/Dromedar/Serpent/Rhino and several other amazing looking Beastmen of the Monster Inf. scale, great if you want some animal variety in your army. Since MM has a bit higher prices (though granted GW is catching up slowly but steadily with each new release...) this promotion makes it a great deal since you are essentially buying at 50% off if you take 2 units.
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Pretty much this. I said it a dozen times, but in all honesty they are just younger, bit weaker less experienced, half naked Bestigors. As such they should at least share similar profile of 3+ To Wound and 2A. If we go by the logic that Rend and Armor save comes from the Equipment Bestigors are donned with. This would make them effectively outperform both Ungors and more likely than not, Centigors in damage dealt. And with their Chaos & Mayhem ability they could actually dish out surprising amount of non rend Attacks if taken in big blobs. Similar to how Bestigors do when making use of the bonus Charge Attack. Needless to say, they would make for a fantastic Herdstone guard, especially if an objective is close by. If that was the case I would gladly start taking them again, even at 80pts. Ungors would still be the cheap throw away options, usefull for bodies and 25mm bases, while Centigors would still be an amazingly fast unit, and Bestigors would still be.... welll Bestigors. So there would be no real negative impact on the other units Gors are competing with, but would flesh them out in the role they currently lack.
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Found an old picture I once took for size comparison between GW models and an alternate hard rubber Giant toy I found on the internet for 5 bucks and fast painted. All of these guys have been re-based to round bases and the Gorghon is now also painted, but its kinda funny how they resemble the Volume/Sound Icon often see. Just though I`d share, for light amusement 😛
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Thats something I have been wanting to try for a while now. Dont have as much time for games as I wanted to, but its good to hear the chicken airforce is doing well. Would be fun to incorporate a unit of skyfires or a chimera into the mix, since its an autohitting D6 MW. Granted for that price you get two more cockatrices soo How many Roosters (coz the other word is not allowed *rolls eyes*) of doom does it take to fly to freedom ?
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I am well aware of the Mierce Miniatures friend Already in possession of several of their Beastmen characters, great looking Minotaurs and "Bestigors", whom are nice and dynamic looking sculpts, when put next to the rank & file bestigors who just dont lookg as good once out of the movement trays.
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Well one things Gors had going for them was the Beast Banner BSB, which was the usual way to run them effectively. Two hand weapons, Beast Banner BSB, and as many shaman buffs > usually Wyssans Wildform, you could possibly squeeze out of your around the Herdstone dancing Shamans. As much as I like BoC, I never had as much fun back in the day with the army as I had after it transitioned into AoS. The army was pretty bad actually. Most of the wining lists had chariot spams, banking on rolling high Impact hits. If you ran minotaurs you HAD to play a Minobus with kitted out Doombull. Good lord, the army was so dull and uninspiring. Even the ammusing stuff they thought off like Cygor > a monster that is also an artillery, fell short due to crappy rules and over excessive point cost. And lets not even mention the Gorghon. I do miss the harpies though. 9th Age did a nice spin on Harpies, renaming them Gargoyles. T4 S3 but +1S on charge with 2 attacks on a fast flying platform, made for a pretty decent light skirmish unit that could also hit some medium level lightly armored stuff, rather than just hunting warmachines and archers (not elven ones lol). The army as is, is good. Sure it has its up and downs, and sure I wish we got some fresh models, return of some Iconic synergy units like Beast Banner BsB, new lore based stuff like Khorn/Slaan/Pestigors, who would receive similar treatment like Tzaangors have (few different units and a character). Some more Beast types to broaden up the theme from just Goats, Bulls and Horses. Horned Boarmen, Bearmen and Werewolves if we wanna keep the forest theme, or some more crazy looking stuff of non forest origin. Same with the big gribblies. As far as models and units go the army has the most potential for amazing looking new stuff, that would put the whole 50+ unit rooster of Stormcast to shame.Some price adjustments and maybe rework and rewording for some of the rules on unit sheets and battalions, and the army would be gold. Haaah >______< I`ll keep on hoping, no one saw BoC book coming until it hit, so who is to say we wont see at least some expansion in the form stuff being released and added additionally ? Also, new centigors bullgors and more dynamic poses for bestigor gors and ungors, would be very nice.
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Now in regards to the Gorghon I must say, its actually a pretty decent monster for 200 pts. Sure its not the best thing ever, its biggest weakness is in my opinion lack of higher rend, like a -2 on the flesh hooks and -3 on the bite. But unlike bullgors it does hit on 3, and can benefit from pretty much all the battalions that matter.
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I hope those are not all the price changes. MInotaurs seriously need some price drop, to at least be the same cost as Dragon Ogres, otherwise they are just trash tier overpriced meh unit. Skyfires not reducing in cost is absolutely pitiful. Considering Enlightened went up (not unexpected though)
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I do prefer the Brass Despoilers over most. Desolating is nice but to me is worth only if I run with 40 Raiders, Cygor and a Shammy with +1 to Hit when ambushing artifact. Which is not always something I wanna go do. Brass is easy to do, and while there are units that benefit less from the effect than others, some benefit form it rather nicely. Like a bunch of Minotaurs and Gorgons.... oh yesss... Brass Gorgons are the Jam! Though I`ve been toying with the idea of a Chaos Sorci thrown in the mix. Brings pretty nice spammable re-rolls of 1s to the army.
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I do agree on the Beastlord wholeheartedly. Its a Beast f*ing Lord. He should have at least one passive trait, that works well in synergy with our army, and as he is of the Brayherd type himself, should be also able to Run n Charge on default. I really do like kenshin620 idea for BLs command ability. Instead of what he has now (agree that huge paragraph of text is like.... why ? This could have been so much more simpler and shorter) > having a free use on one of the Rulebook command abilities (auto run, ignore battleshocks, reroll charges). That would actually BE GOOD, synergise well and make the BL a solid support, rather than just a one ride pony Artifact wielder. Personally I would like for him to have a passive trait > if the BL is the General all BoC units withing 12/18", regardless of type, be it Brayherd, Warherd, Thunderscorn or monsters, can chosse to use his Bravery value as their own. Just how like the generals used to work back in the day. Especially for our army that would mean some reduction to Battleshock, as most of our units are between 4-5 wih occasional 6 Bravery I believe. And yeah... its the motherFing BEASTLORD.... you know... the Lord of all Beasts ? Imposing his will over all members of the Herd ? Way to cool, to not do that Just a though > what about running 4-5 BL as a single unit, on 2K points you can squeeze in 2 artifacts. Gnarled Blade and Volcanic Axe, both of which are pretty deadly with BLs 6A re-roll 1s to hit. A little hero hammer that can cleave a lot of stuff be it hordes, medium elites and even some tough monster, for fairly decent point allotment.
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Interesting leaks. We`ll see soon enough which of them were true or close enough, and which ones were complete miss. Greater Beast God knows that Bullgors could use the price drop (and the battalions as well). 80pts Beastlord... yeah, I mean, honestly I`d rather see BL getting some extra passive, like All BoC units within 12" using his Dics. instead of their own for Battleshock test or something. Cheaper chariots > if its true, then they just got even better than they already were, to the point where Razorgors would become completely obsolete. Again, we`ll see soon enough. Lets hope for some good price drops *fingerscrossed*
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You are giving GHB update more credit than it deserves in my opinion. There wont be any major changes in the pricing as far as Beastmen are concidered. I mighty be proven wrong on this but I very much doubt I will. The units are pretty well priced, in general, its stats and ablities and their lack of that are amiss. And as our army is nowhere near the top, despite it being competitive enough due to some stuff we can pull, there is no real need for GW to shake things up radically for us. As for the grind to death ratio > Swampheart is absolutely correct about the current pacing of the game > things swing, and things die en masse. This no longer is the day of Warhammer fantasy where two blocks would grind against each other as it used to be. I have nowhere near the sheer volume of games under my belt as he does, however I can say that things melt quickly when combat is joined. And BoC units are especially of the "do or die" type. Anyway, we`ll see what price changes they bring. Honestly cant see bestigors getting more expensive. They are low tier elite unit, in other armies. Only thing that will get a hit, are Tzaan Exalted on discs,but we all knew that one was coming, when they are pretty much the most killy thing in the entire army for meager 140 pts. Wish they dropped Skyfires by 20 as well in recompense though. So, outside of the Gor discussion > Do we have any estimated release date for the GHB update ?
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I can appreciate your enthusiasm regarding Gors, but at the same time it should be said that bunch of people tried their best to justify Gors... and they were not able to do it in any actual capacity. Some limited use ? Yes, maybe. But full fledged dependable, good choice to pick ? ...Not really, no. Gors dont have a good statline and are contested by 3 other units that can do the same, and do it better in most of the time. Having 3+ to Wound, would go miles for these guys, They are for all intent and purposes just younger, naked Bestigors without big weapons. The stat line should be closer to that, rather than being pretty much the same as Ungors are. 30 Bestigors, are super cheep tarpit that can actually kill stuff with relative ease. Tuskgor chariots are fantastic in greater numbers. Single models are good, but 3-4 chariots in a single unit has the durability and board coverage, solid speed. They are pretty much a budget price Dragon Ogors. Ungors are able to strike 2" with spears, and as the same time allow other units (mostly Tzaangors) to strike through them with 2" attacks. Since they have 25mm bases, you can get 3 lines to attack through the gaps. And to put a cherry on top > Centigors are superior in every single way to Gors, at the same price tag. Sure, not a battle line, but who cares about that really. Filling out battle line in BoC army is super easy thanks to different general type bringing their big boys to the Battleline slot. So yeah, Gors have no real place to fit in. Trust me, I wish this wasn't the case. I wish they had more umpfh, or a special rule or something. I have 40 of these painted, and another 30/40 unpainted > mostly due to them being not worth the time since they wont see the table anyway with the plethora of other choices left open to us. Gors could be solid if they got fine tuned a little bit, but so could be said for most of our stuff thats not up to par with some other choices.
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Now I have seen plenty of very nice Slaangor conversions out there. Usually people use Gors for this type of thing due to the size and compatibility. You chosing to do ungors, is rather unfortunate as it rather limits what bits will fit with each other. Personally I would just swap their weapons for more sleek looking ones, and some random slaaneshi bits and adjust the paint job. Alternatively, if you are up to it, you can go for a kitbash-custom job, however I think this will be quite tiring as you need rather large quantities of Ungors and other stuff so... anyway: The way I`d go about it is replace their legs with demonette legs. As mentioned for Slaangors people tend to just add beastmen parts onto a demonettes body, but due to the size of Ungors this wouldnt work. Instead Id replace just the legs. Get some long sleek looking arms, and use non Beastmen weapon bits (something like Tzeentchs Cayric accolites have). If you have stuff like chains, hooks etc, you know things that would fit the Slaaneshi aesthetics I would add those sporadically here and there. The final part would be the appropriate paintjob in their gods favorite colors. Now.... I am not gonna lie to you > they will end up as ugly freaks of the nature. Ungors are pretty old, and rather ugly sculpts, and most of them also have bulging bellies, something that just doesnt fit in with the whole Slender, Slick and seducive Slaaneshi vibe as a whole. You`d be much better of going for Gors instead as they are much better for this type of conversion project. **Alternatively, if you Greenstuff skill is decent, you might just wanna give them a shawl and random bits of light posh looking clothing on them. You know, coz them Slaaneshies like the gooood stuff Fairly simple to do and the paintjob will do most of the trick. ***Alternate alternative > just use a completely different range of miniatures, ones that fit the theme you are looking for. Not GW shop/convention friendly though so be warned. If you however dont care about that stuff there is no need to worry about it (for example I dont: our LGS is not GW owned, and I dont go to GW only events either, most tournaments dont restrict the use of third party miniatures as long as they represent what they are. I got bunch of Mierce Mini minotaurs, and you can tell they are Minotaurs just by looking, and no one ever complained as the sculpts are much nicer than what GW has going on for their Bullgors.).
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Cold ones.... I think those might be really good actually ! I am unsure about the scale of their heads compared to DO, thus I have not included them in the equation, though I have briefly considered them for a sec. Any idea if Cold ones come with extra heads ? Or is the sprue done in a 1 to 1 head-body ratio ? EDIT: Can anyone recommend any alternatives for the heads ? Looking at the prices and the fact that bits shops no longer have these in stock, I really dont wanna buy the whole miniature just for the head. If you can recommend any good 3rd party that makes Lizardmen, and / or sell individual bits like Heads, I`d be more than happy to look at them.
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So guys a question for those of you who have a Seraphon army. Any idea which Seraphon unit Head would fit the Dragon Ogres torsos ? Would normal Lizardmen be fine, or do would Krogixors be better ? I have a strong dislike of Ogres and I cant those heads they going on. Plus I would like mine to look a bit more bestial, to go along with the Shaggoth model I have prepared (no not the super cool one thats too big to fit a DO base. The smaller, but still cool looking one 😛 kudos to those who put the breadcrumbs together and figure it out hehe ^^ )
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Lol for a second I though what you posted was an actual update for the GHB and was super excited Good changes overall, would be nice to see that. Especially the Allherd stuff. Desolate shard for Darkwalkers still needs some love though Wouldn't make Centigors into Battle line. And this is crucial. It would completely overshadow any other battle line choice. Especially the Gors and Warhounds, despite them getting buffed slightly. This wouldn't be good for the health of the army as a whole. I could certainly get behind most of this without a second thought.
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I get your point but let me offer an alternative view. Centigors are the same price, and are superior in pretty much every single way, other than screening (since its 5 2W models instead of 10 1W ones). Better damage output, durability due to save, can have benefits of a command group, and most importantly is much much faster with or even without a Shaman, which does compensate a lot on the "not as good of a screen" part, since they can keep up and ahead of pretty much anything else we have. I mean there is no comparison between them and the Warhounds. Alternatively - Chariots and Razorgors 60 and 40 pts. I use those as throw away units. Both are still better than Warhounds. The only thing Warhnouds have going for them is the 10 model screen, but with no save, and a single wound, there ARE better ways to screen even at 80 pts, albeit a bit more finicky (Razorgors are pretty solid flank protectors, you get 3 as individual units and position them with 3" gaps, this way you can pretty much cover some odd 15" of a flank). Dont get me wrong, I would love for them to be at least mildly useful, but there is not one, but several better units that can do just the same, though in a slightly different way. 60 pts Warhounds, I believe would draw a good bargain and make people think much harder whether to take them or not.
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I would like to see: Drop 20 pts, their attack range with the great weapons changed from 1" to 2" instead so screening becomes viable and pilling up more effective, and the paired weapon option reworked to +1 to hit like Tzaangors have (this should be an global thing for Beastmen, rerolling 1 for paired weapons is a joke, and we all know Gors could really use this as well), making it an actually good choice rather then an absolute meh. This is the most basic of changes. Alternative version: Add +1 A to all weapon profiles (horns excluded). Keep the 4+ to hit, instead give them more attacks. I`d be mighty fine with that. (Though I still agree about increasing the range for the great weapon. A bloody SCE two hander dude who is half the size of a Minotaur gets 2" with the weapon they have.... how does that make sense, when the minotaurs arms length is twice of his... yeah) S+S = 4A 4+/3+ - 1 D2; 4+Save Paired = 4A 4+/3+ -1 D2; 5+Save Great w. = 3A 4+/3+ -2 D3, 5+Save 2" range Alternative of an Alternative* And if they really wanna go ham,, I`d be fine with a 3rd option where they get an extra attack, while also implementing the +1 to Hit for the Paired weapons and 2" range for the Great weapons. Keeping the current price, which is the highest among the 3 man sized monster inf units (Enlightened, Dragon Ogors, Bullgors). That would make them an actual elite unit choice comparable to actual elite units of other armies, as it would also give Bloodgreed more chances to proc the MV, without making the other two obsolete (DA still more tanky, Shaggy gives them nice buffs, plus they are 20pts less. Enlightened can ambush and synergies well with the benefit from Bray and Tzaan shammy to insane degree, also cheaper, but more squish if not on discs). This way we would have 3 different monster infantry sized units, each excelling at a certain thing, while neither would be made useless by the other two. Well lets see how things pan out in the end. The GHB doesnt change warscrolls only prices yes ? Lets see what happens (warhounds 60 pts pretty pleeeease). Do we have any estimated date when the GHB update is gonna be out ?
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Honestly the BoC book offers a lot of interesting options. If you are a starting player, dont worry about looks and proxy stuff with empty bases, if your opponent is OK with it, to try anything and everything the book has to offer. Most of the times, the core part of your every list will look the same (some ungors, one or two shamans, and some MSU Bestigors), and the rest will be changing as you go playtesting different styles and units. You can go Dragon Ogre heavy, or you can ignore them. You can run bunch of monsters, or none at all. You can go full horde mode with tons of bestigors, ungors, centigors or you might wanna go a small model count high impact army like Tzaangors or Bullgors. Honestly the book gives you many option how to play it, and if you like the models, then there is no "absolutely wrong option" (well...even hounds can be used for screening, though Centigors are still supreme. Only actual let down in the book are the Gors so I`d stear clear off those until they get some love.) though there are some worse and some better ones for sure.
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Yop, and add a Shaggoth to that for the Re-Roll 1s and oh boy. Need to get me some DOgers as well. Not because of Slaanesh, but because they seem like a good answer against Nighthaunt.
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Well the thing is > you are not playing BoC 5 times. You are playing God army with BoC units. For me, its ..... meh. Call me purist, but I believe the Great Beast God (BAAAAAAH !) deserves more than to be just a unit lender to the 4 Chaos Gods. Or in less convoluted words: I like the fact there are synergies if you take the God battalions, but those are ONLY if you play the God Armies. If you want to take their stuff into BoC to keep the BoC army rule set, you cant. And yeah I agree about the Outdated thing. But then again this has been the issue with Beastmen ever since they have been split into their own subfaction of chaos back in "yieee olden days". At least in AoS, most of their builds are competitive and most of their units are worth something. I dont see our book being updated anytime soon, at least not sooner than 2 years from now that is. Hopefully as the time draws closer we can also FINALLY get an updated model range (Centigors REALLY need this, so does the Beastlord model, and many would argue Minotaurs as well. Bestigors and Gors still hold up, but compared to the more dynamic AoS miniatures you can see the rank and file unified theme they have. And lets not even talk about Razorgors ). Maybe even some new units. Honestly I would love to see Khorng/Pesti/Slaangors to go along the whole Tzaangors, God specific elite beastmen. Was hoping we can get some of that with Slaanesh, but was left disappointed. I guess time will tell. Lest just hope the power creep is not too big until then. Honestly though, before new Beastmen, I want the rebirth of the oldschool Empire. .... oh yeah, that one would be amazing.
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So how would a HoS BoC list look like ? I tend to play pure BoC, even when running the God Battalions, since due to the Allies ruling we cant really get their stuff, so I figure why bother. You would have to take Slaanesh as the main force, and add BoC via the Battalion (thus not treated as allies with allies limitation) correct ? While I believe that as far as units go, Slaanesh has the least to offer us (we are quite fast ourselves, and have the numbers too), being able to utilize the army buffs and command abilities is where the true value of this lies, unlike with the other Gods, who dont have the adequate Keywording for us to make use of ? Also..... no Slaangors.... much disappointment, though I guessed as much as there was no Khorngors with the last Khorne release. With Tzaangors being an actual thing, I think this is such wasted potential for new models and units that could work well for multiple armies (BoC and the God specific as well as vanilla Chaos undivided.)
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Buy the Starter collecting set box. 2x. Its a great deal with lot of value from the box. Play few games try out different units and depending on what you like and what works for you start adding on more models. Bestigors are a solid pick that is universally useful in almost any list you can come up with. Same with Bray shamans and Ungors. Avoid using Gors if possible, as they are they dont offer anything Ungors or Bestigors cant do better for a slight price difference. Everything else in the book is fairly viable to a higher or lower degree. Some things outperform others, but unless you are looking to play the same list and go full tryhard mode when playing your opponent. The selection of units is pretty good, and you get a lot of replay-ability with the same unit in multiple lists, and dozens of combinations. Some work well, some do less, some dont at all, but its fun regardless. The army excels during the movement phase and can deliver a punch, but as you would guess from half naked barbarian goatmen, bullmen, etc, the lack in defense. Our units are fairly cheap when compared to other armies, and you can field a lot of bodies if you wish, but at the same time it is possible to play low model count elite lists. Just keep in mind that there are armies that fight better, tank better, do magic better. Beastmen are kinda like your average human in RPG games. Decent in all aspects, dont excel in anything particularly. Though In our case though as mentioned we are fairly fast army. There is also option to ambush units for some mind games and area control. As a whole the army is certainly competitive and is in a solid spot. Sure some things might be worked on a little bit better. but generaly this is the best version of Beastmen I have seen since Warhammer fantasy old Beast of Chaos. Lastly... welcome to the Herd brother ! Baaaaaaah !
