Scurvydog

No Roar prevents commands in the following combat phase. Also The finest hour heroic action gives +1 to wound and +1 to save, which makes the 3+/2+ profile less desirable, even if it is only for 1 turn. Maybe it all makes more sense when we see the GHB 2021 with the other point increases, but so far, he is still more expensive than the rumored Mortahi cost at 660, and he is by no means worth more than her in any plane of reality.

It's like this company just does not want to sell their own product sometimes... Preorder day expectations is mostly just a lot of frustration and disappointment at this point, although I would love to be proven wrong.

Yea the new edition does not really "fix" the double turn, it even shifts the endless spells to be in favor of the one taking the turn, where before the one going second chose the first spell to move. The command points being generated at the start of the battle round is important though, especially considering the new responses, which gives more agency to the player who does not have the turn. I get why players who hate the double turn are disappointed by this, at best, half measure, but if we are to deal with it, it is at least better than before. Something completely different though with the generic artifacts and spell lore, I can't wait to have a wizard Mega Gargant with a flaming titanic club, that is going to be fun

I like the idea of this, but I think it would be very vulnerable to a lot of things and hard pressed to cover ground. Thinking combat activation will be a problem as well, the output will be low overall and very low per unit. I think about this vs my Sons of Behemat list and they would just get tickled, then hit back and flatten a unit in response. There is also no way they can chew through a unit of wardens in time, who blocks a backline/teclis whatever. It will also be a very hard time contesting any points, but I sure like the idea of it still

Again that is not how Roar works either. You choose a monster rampage at the end of the charge phase. Roar more specifically then prevents the target unit from receiving or issuing commands the following combat phase. This does in no way prevent the unit from using unleash hell before that happens.

That is not how unleash hell works. The command is issued after the enemy unit finishes a charge. Then the unit that receives the command just needs to be within 9" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from other enemies. The only way this can not be used is if that ranged unit is already engaged somehow. This is why this command is so dangerous, the only counterplay is to get that range unit charged somehow by either chaff or something sturdy first, but that might not be possible with ranged units sitting just behind an anvil.

Imagine your one chance to get into combat with that KO Ironclad, all positioning is done perfectly to get within 5", nice charge range and then it simply goes "aight imma head out" and flies away 6". Enjoy your 11" charge range now, which will of course fail and you get shot again Honestly I worry a lot more about redeploy than unleash hell, there does not seem to be any efficient counterplay to that. Even if you end up just outside 3" after a move you can still risk up to a 9" charge. I can see how that will create all sorts of problems for melee armies, getting shot at one place and simply failing the charge another place. Being a shooting army seems to be the only way to really ensure any damage.

As expected it addressed 0 of the pressing questions about OBR in relation to the rules we have seen. 2 places mystic shield is mentioned and not shown and Kavalos mentioned as "winners" because of reinforcement rules? Their endless spell soulbound rules being much worse now than the new baseline endless spell rules was not addressed. The relentless discipline points were not addressed, neither the fact that warscroll battalions was an alternative to generate said points which is now removed. The only interesting bit is how much arcane bolt has changed, but that is hardly related to OBR at all. Can only hope someone still managed to address any legit issues in a day 1 3.0 FAQ for battletomes...

I stand by this army is the one standing to be left behind the most with the new edition if nothing major changes. Their endless spell mechanic with soulbound spells is basically the new mechanic for endless spells, however they got -1 to all casts with an endless spell on the board, that rule will be absolutely silly if they still get -1, so it should see major changes or be removed all together. Their other unique mechanic is not worse in itself, but it is worse in relation to what everyone else are getting. With more command points and strong command abilities, by staying the same as before, OBR will be weaker overall in comparison. Imagine their catapults now when everyone gets easy access to +1 save in the shooting phase... Also their abilities are still technically commands, so would also need to be FAQd if they can use the same more times, imagine if that is not addressed and only 1 mortek guard unit can use shield wall? Or 1 unit can use the +3" move? The new edition has raised a lot of questions and a lot of new stuff, most which concerns rules of stuff OBR does not have or in relation makes what they got much worse. The army needs some good FAQs to be playable, but of course GW is on top of that, they would never mess up something like that surely

They shouldnt look too jarring next to each other, the tactical rock adds some height to the Vindictor here. Although with 2" reach confirmed it will be hard pressed for liberators to be any good, unless the hammers get better stats than 3+/3+/rend 1/1 MW on 6s... Usually spears hurt less but got the reach...

If nothing changes they will be an absolute dumpsterfire. They endless spell mechanic everyone got now, but without a -1 to cast. Everyone got way more command points and better commands, if OBR does not get anything to compensate for not having access to any commands, what is the point of the army?

Nice artwork for the warqueen nobody ever uses because she can not benefit from the allegiance abilities... I'd assume all the coming faction focus articles will be mostly "this model good, because of +1 save command!" well... my hopes for these "deep dives" are low at best. It will be amazing to see how they address the bonereapers though who can not benefit from any of the new commands, will it just be an empty sheet of paper? who knows!

How do you get that? It looks like 10 Gutrippaz and 3 annihilators cost the same 180 pts. In pure damage output we can see the potential below. 5 Vindictors included although they are a bit cheaper at 140 pts for 5. Then we can take into account the Gutrippaz are 20 wounds and 10 models, where the stormcast get 9 wounds for the same points and 3 models. If we imagine a straight up fight between the units the Annihilators will also be at -1 to hit from the Gutrippaz ability, reducing their damage against a 5+ save to around 5,5. We can then easily see that the Orruks will grind down the Annihilators in most cases, expect of course in an ideal scenario where the Annihilators deep strike and get a good charge in and strike first etc. But of course a good setup from the Orruk will have them walk all over the Annihilators, mortal wounding them down, especially if they get the 5+ MW poison buff. Let us just say in a straight up fight to the last man, they are pretty evenly matched. However the Orruks have more models and wounds total, so can more easily take mortal wounds themselves pt for pt, they have more move and can more easily hold an objective. Of course we do not know all allegiance abilities yet, and this is very much in a vacuum, but there is little reason to outright call the orruks bad and the stormcast the greatest ever. I'm sure the box will be quite evenly matched if Yndrasta is removed from the equation, if anyone even cares about that.

Everyone I know plays with GW rules and new tomes are only allowed after their first FAQ. I have attended some narrative events with custom rulesets but all competitive events are always with GW rules, as that is the only way to have any consistency. It would be maddening if it was the norm for every event to have custom rebalancing, so you had to switch around the army every time and learn new homebrew rules all the time. There are imbalances, but I do not think it is as bad as people make it out to be. Most armies even now in 2.0 are able to have interesting battles no problem, it is more the exception with a few units and tomes rather than the norm. Of course in a very competitive environment these few troublemaker units and tomes are over represented, and that is always how it will be. Currently I am looking forward to get the full picture of 3.0, I like most I have seen, some is a bit wonky too, but perhaps it will make more sense with more context, even if not, people will find a way to deal with it.

On one hand I enjoy as many new kits as possible, on the other I got this Starcast list all painted up with dracothian guards, stardrakes, liberators and judicators and it sounds like I might have to redo everything with the new and probably "better" kits. A luxury first world problem I guess, however some armies could need such a replacement treatment more I think

I worry about the rumor of the coming Stormcast kits being new Stardrakes and Dracoths with the new armor stuff. My Entire army is based around stardrakes and dracothian guards and we all know what happens when new shinier kits are in town of basically the same thing and role. Also apparently archers with the new armor type. I can't see how GW will find roles for all these ranged units at this point, we already got judicators with 2 types of ranged weapons, Castigators and vanguard raptors with multiple weapon options. The new archers will simply have to step on the toes of at least judicators and one will for sure be better than the other.

Nah the warbosses are the only ones with "good" saves, the regular orruks looks to be 180 for 10 with 2 wounds, 5+ saves, 5 move and 2 attacks with only 4+/4+, most of their output is tied to the mortal wounds allegiance for sure. They also got a rule with a high chance of reducing enemy to hit by 1 (roll 2d6+orruk models in unit to beat bravery). The cost seems pretty high, but expect costs to be high across the board I guess.

So now that the box warscrolls are out there, what do people think about the new battleline? For reference Vindictors will have 2 wounds, 5" move, 3+ save and 7 bravery 2 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/1 damage hit rolls of 6 cause 1 mw and attack sequence ends They do clock in at 140 for 5 though, but as we know MW on hit is everything. I wonder though with Liberators and sequitors being bumped to a 3+ save if we will still see the cheapet batteline taken. Stormcast does not really favor these infantry blocks and really want to get a lot of utility and such... But they will look cool for sure at least. The Imperatant at 160 will be an auto include in just about all stormcast armies, getting a free command and also 7" deep strike will be very important. Praetors being bodyguards if of course a big deal, transfer wounds on a 2-4 and outright ignore on 5+. Using them next to Yndrasta or a Prime seems to be interesting indeed, with 3 wounds and 3+ save they are fairly sturdy as well.

Ending is interesting:

Another factor is also the talk about a command to move d6 in the enemy move phase. If this can be done at the end of the phase, that could force armies like KO to be 6" closer than their max range to the unit they wish to shoot, to ensure the opponent does not retreat out of range for 1 CP. This also goes the other way around and can really be a pain for a unit ending up 7" from a boat, which then retreat and rolls a 4 making the following charge nearly impossible.

So I got 6 Varanguard built and painted for my empty throne list and another 3 still NiB... Sounds a lot like ebay time

I guess this also depends on any changes to the current unit sizes, however this does not seem to hit the current top of the meta a lot, but really hurt other armies, like most death armies, fyreslayers, freeguild armies and such.

Yea just read the article and it is very much pointless. There are vague reference to things being good due to new core rules we know nothing about. As for the army itself they just point out the obvious we already know, "this army good, because it can also use the same generic commands as everyone else", wow thanks for the insight Mr. Playtester man, woe is me without such superior deductive skills. The only things that made me think a little bit about some combos is how all the "hero phase" commands was sort of annoying before, but now they serve a purpose by making room for something else in the combat phase due to no stacking in the same phase. That and I might just use my fomorid crusher sometime, the rampage rules can be quite ok to get if it now counts as 5 model as well according to the rumor. Knowing GW they will then overcost it again and make it useless though

That was already established in the article. The player going second will then have a 1 CP advantage for that battle round

The units you mention including sentinels are however just about the only really meta defining ranged units, and even though Shootcast has been out for quite some time, as they are too expensive and vulnerable. I do not think it is a bad thing to have an overwatch like mechanic, if it was so overpowered why are sisters of the watch and handgunners not dominating who got it built into the warscroll. I am aware this version is stronger, as you can do it even as enemies charge a screen in front, however at least there is a hit penalty. Speaking of hit penalty, this is where the trouble begins, as I think this rule will be quite OK for any kind of range unit which does not trigger mortal wounds on unmodified rolls. Ironclads already got the last word to shoot chargers, that was good but not game breaking and many even switch to the ram these days. However sentinels and sneks etc will hardly loose any firepower from hit modifiers. Sending in heavy armor units wont help either. This is a small pool of units, yet they are pretty dominant in the competitive scene right now. I will withhold final judgement to when I get the full picture, however so far it looks like GW might think the smaller table size and perhaps increased access to early melee engagements require such a rule to exist to not devalue ranged entirely. I could imagine that being their reasoning and hopefully there is more to back that up. Right now though I will agree it looks rough, charging 30 wardens was already a tall order, but if you also have to be shot by the 20 man sentinel unit behind as you charge, then it will be very oppressive. This could be alright if we see changes to max unit sizes for some units, or we see some new unique things. Against shooting armies the units with 6" pile ins and activation range will be even more valuable though to prevent that extra shooting in the charge phase.