whispersofblood

It's an overstated strategy. HoS have been able to do this for like 2 years now with a cheaper more durable unit, with less tax in the battalion and it never showed up because units don't float around the board in little bubbles with 8" gaps between them. At best you can trade for a couple turns to delay things like HGB, the battalion is a trap. I'd rather have 2 ballistae and do dmg then do zero damage and have the delayed units table me from turn 3 onwards. It would be better if the battalion could include more than one Spirit of the wind though because then you wouldn't be trading at all. Which would make it superior to the existing versions of this Strat, with units like Yetis, SoS, and Seeker Cavalcade. Even still anything with 2" reach solves the problem there, or anything that can pile-in twice or has a 6" pile-in itself. LRL also don't have a go to way remove single models so it's not as it we can punish people effeciently for pile-in moves which thin the center of their units.

I use lithium on my android devices.

Despite mankind's best efforts to the contrary the pareto principal still holds sway over reality and nature. It's true of the mass of stars, goals scored in the PL, and production of employees. If your list building and enjoyment of the game does not come from outputs or production, more units become viable. But the principal holds as soon as outcomes are the objective. It's seemingly inescapable and describes a law of nature, you may as well be saying you want your models to float over the table.

The only value I can see in a unit of 5 Bladelords is using then to protectect 2+ heroes from a KO alpha.

Nah mate you are just wrong on the math. The army already has low dmg with sunmetal. Without Sunmetal weapons that drops to at best 2/3 of its already low dmg output.

I don't think any of the Hero Spirits are very good if I'm honest. What is the spell portal for? I think at the moment the best builds are probably Teclis or Vanari. Everything is is a mishmash without a structure. I'll be honest here, this isn't a good enough start to even start critiquing. You're going to have to drop a lot of heroes and get some more models in there before you can talk shop.

lol everyone knows you never get to fight the clanrats most important unit in the army.

What sorts of hordes are people fighting? The only ones I see are like witches on a 4+, Ard Boyz on a 4+ Mortek Gaurd and skinks I'll never get to fight. I just think Bladelords are a unit without a role to fill.

So I've seen clearer text. Regarding the Windriders Battalion. It's simply counts as charging, which is better than simply procing Move like the Wind as it effectively allows for a unrestricted 6" move in the combat phase. You still need a windmage WW6"(24" if its the general) for fly however. Honestly 180 for the battalion and 250 for the Spirit means it is not a very cheap ability. Unless you are going something like 30 Windriders the whole package is a bit dubious for the effect. And likely won't result in many if any slain models. A better combo is probably Sharks with net launchers and no battalion. However Helon has been misreported, it is +1 A to missile Weapons when within 3" of an enemy unit so the killing edge of Windriders is heavily overstated, by about 46%. I think all told my feelings having now had a chance to see all the rules are... On a battleplan the book will put up some resistance, and force the opponent to think about their play. But will ultimately probably lose more often then it wins, probably a 2-3 in the hands of an average player. The people who win games with LRL between experienced players are probably the sort that will win with almost any army.

We'll have to wait for better screen grabs but when I saw the text it included the rule Hurukan rule as the jump off point. The distinction here is only if they effectively gain a 6" unrestricted move in the combat phase for those who aren't involved. On the other hand I don't think the Spirit of the wind is good enough to really chase the rule anyway.

Yeah primarily I was thinking Shooting. Careful what you say about flamers, might summon @MitGas! 😉 Those are fair points, I think you are touching on some things I've said in the Aos3 convo as well. Most armies can't support more than 3 heroes before they so heavily impact drops that you can get abused, and also their benefits are maginal generally My solution for monsters that that they can't bracket more than once a player turn, then you mod the brackets to match how survival and output for the narrative. At the moment the Monster Keyword is mostly a negative I'd like to see it get some characteristics that make it unique. Then you can give models rules which interact with the Monster Keyword.

Have any examples? I'm not being passive aggressive I'm actually curious. The only expensive centerpieces that are vulnerable to shooting off the top of my head are Bloodthristers and the KoS. Everything else seems pretty decent against the amount of shooting a person is likely to face.

They count as charging for the purpose of the Hurakan rule, not generally.

It seems to me most people don't actually know how pile-ins work... If a Spirit of the Wind model charges a unit with multiple models, the whole unit does not need to pile-in to the Spirit if there is a closer model anywhere on the board. This includes a pile-in to units you had not charged to begin with. You can also pile-in if a model moves within 3" of a unit. The defence is good on the board play, and positioning. Which is what we should be encouraging. For the LRL player the Spirit is basically a delay and manuver unit, a very interesting addition to the game which has been to this point about trading. You can spend 130 or whatever and trade away your Windriders, spend 260 for the utility of 2 units or spend the same and have a model that you don't have to trade, but with all the weaknessess of being a single model. Neither of them do any damage of consequence however outside of Helion. This is exactly the sort of stuff people have been asking for from units, utility in some other way then just doing more damage. As an aside, what armies "need" CP to function? My recollection of most factions would say that most command abilities are win more abilities, and most factions play off their allegiance abilities which are for the most part not interactive.

Actually what I'm saying is we don't have enough data to say definitively either way. Which is why examples of things that are similar but not the same are so important. All things have definitions and an objective core, we are limited by our imperfect human perception and ability to communicate, not by the nature of things. Subjectivity is much later in the process and more marginal than the layman believes. Even things like beauty have objective cores, the exact dimensions of human beauty are known, variance from that core is subjectively acceptable to viewers. The math helps us figure out what is actually similar so we can then identify what is different about these things so we can narrow down what the core of the NPE is. If people are experiencing a variance between Marauders and Ard Boyz making a 9" charge to be NPE that's valuable to the determining what other things could be NPE. And, what the general player can tolerate and not tolerate. In this case Marauders fail a 9" charge 2/36 times, Ard Boyz worst case 12/36 times. Boundless Ferocity works out to be equivalent to +5 in regards to completing a charge from 9". But bonuses to charge can be more powerful then the Marauder rule in other circumstances as you spike very high. Marauders go on average 11-12inches. Ard Boyz between 10-11, Marauders spike to 13, Ard Boyz spike at 15". So there are some trades offs to consider for designers, simply going one route over another may not solve the issues of NPE. In this case having a different drummer rule means The Marauders would have a 6/36 chance to fail off the teleport. Maybe that degree of certainty would have been tolerable. We don't know unless we can measure how people are reacting to different sources of stimulus. One of the great ideas was 6s always succeed to wound tanks in 40k. There was some arguing at first but the chance was so small the opposed group could hardly argue it was impactful overall, and, the for side were seemingly satisfied with even a slim chance of success. Just the idea of some possibility of completely changed the narrative of the argument. A part of human psychology is to generalize bad experience into the present and future. I don't think designing to the worst aspects of human nature is a benefit to the game however. As I said before people can feel whatever; that acid sure can feel like fire. But it's still acid, and not fire. The point of the discussion is delineate between ordinary things that might make the average person feel bad (like things which cause feelings of inferiority), and the sorts of things that the average person might actually be powerless in the face of. Because, it's not legitimate to say you are powerless because you feel powerless that isn't how reality functions.

We've already discussed the subjective component, see @Neil Arthur Hotep post earlier today. Not all feel bads are NPE, some things are just knowledge gaps or specific bugbears. We've moved on to identifying exactly what the objective mechanics that produce the thing are, so that we can rigoursly test each instance. Math is useful because it lets us delineate between instances of similarish things. If going from less than 15% chance to a zero percent chance is NPE that's fine if we can show that is replicatable. But, I'd be hesitant to declare it with certainty. There needs to be some level of wherewithal from players so that factions can be deliberate and interesting. We can very quickly end up with a bunch of sylvaneth books which are interesting but filled with such pointless drivel they are unplayable. A good example where this clarity helps is Marauders and Ard Boyz. Marauders change their lowest die to a 6 (adding on average between 3 and 5 to a roll), and a +1. Ard Boyz depending on build add between 3 and 4 to a roll. One changes a die, the other adds modifiers. Both have access to teleports. Marauders are complained about, Ard Boyz hardly get a mention. The process should be are the complaints are a feeling or a reaction to NPE. Then what does the reaction or lack thereof to a very similar thing mean. Is this similar thing evidence of a feeling (personal but shared discomfort) or legitimate NPE. Personally I think it's fine for Factions to do their specific "thing" without much interactivity from the opponent, and a high degree of mechanical reliability. And, that thing should flow from their allegiance abilities and be mostly certain. To me it's unacceptable that HoS have to roll a die for their Locus to work for example. These are the things that make playing against different factions worthwhile. And form an identifiable identity for a faction. The Contemplation rule is really cool to me in this regard. Trading the present for the future is a really interesting design space. Regarding magic. It's a tricky one personally I've not been able to imagine a system that lets minor casters engage against major casters better than the one we have at the moment. It's actually better than what we had in WHFB. Which is probably why I'm fine with God tier casters, Teclis amoungst them. Narratively it checks out. I do think that generally casters heroes should have at least 2 casts and 1 unbind and 1 dispel though. Also, each caster needs a consistently useful warscroll spell. Rubbish like stream of corruption shouldn't pass the first draft. Most wizards aren't useless in the face of the major casters they are frankly just useless in most cases. Even the "good" ones are only good because of things outside their warscroll, most often that thing being a teleport.

Teclis autocasting isn't uninteractive. The interaction between players remains, he does greatly reduce the tension in the moment though. I guess the question is if the small chance of failure presented by Kroak, the LoC and Nagash is actually sufficient; so that literally autocasting vs effectively autocasting produces NPE. Check my math but a 9 to cast is unbound what 1/9 times? These are some narrow margins.

I disagree. If LRL had problems filling battleline you might have seen a 5 man instead of a 3rd Warden unit, but the unit itself is just too mediocre and Cathallars not essential enough to invest in a bodyguard. If Cathallars are that essential to your build its probably better to just take a second and duplicate all the benefits. I'm also not sure keeping a Cathaller alive is an issue, at least it's not one I'm generally afraid of. Either way list building is an interesting discussion, and dependant on a lot of things. Namely if you even have a strong desire to use the models.

I think in the design of an army built for some aggression the combination will be 1 ballista + 20 Sentinels. The extra utility with the -1 to push combats in your direction is a very strong ability. I think it would be reasonable to plan for 2. Which frees up two utility casts like Twinstones. Also being a hero helps in several missions for bonus points. Alternatively you can him the Regent cast Protection as a safe platform on a big base.

@Neil Arthur Hotep thank you, after reading the past days responses I was coming to say something largely the same. The lack of precision makes the conversation frustrating and pointless. We eventually reached a workable definition for what NPE could be objectively. And, you've described it well. To address the subjectivity point quickly. Like all things we can name NPE is objective is is a thing. Your experience is subjective and a situation could stir inside you feelings similar even exactly like the feelings that NPE might produce. That does not make the cause of those feelings NPE. Neither I or anyone can tell you what you felt was right or wrong. I can only say if the cause fits the definition. For example; many things burn which aren't fire. You have a limited number of ways of experiencing the world so many things feel the same. Which is why in the very same NPE video on Warhammer Weekly, Tom said most of what is called NPE can actually just be addressed with knowledge. I would further define that as preparedness, temperance and expectation. I'd like to push back against the combat isn't an NPE a bit to further prove the point of subjectivity. Most of the time when we experience crushing combats we call the unit delivering it OP, rather than NPE. We say its too strong for its points. I would argue that most of not all the combat units that people could name as strong contain some if not all the attributes of NPE in the definition. The difference is that a) GW has conditioned the player base to experimence combat as an exchange and b) it carries an illusion of risk Usually what happens with these units is the points go up until they are basically untakable by virtue of limiting the army too much. Or they get a new book and most of the structure is removed. Take for example the KoS. Anyone who has ever used one can tell you they spoke very high. Their normal dmg is quite ok tbh. What made them the combat terror if the Summer of 2019 was Thermalrider, Locus (,Hunter supreme) and being replaceable. What they became was a piece that did what the player asked 9/10 and the 10th time you could replace it anyway. Near combat certainty, in a lowish drop book, in a meta with no tangible shooting. The demand was increase the points, or descriptions of events which could mean OP. The truth was that it was Thermalrider Cloak that needed to be removed. The combat stats on a KoS are exactly the same as they were, Locus doesn't help much, and it can't use it's command ability on itself. It is now considered rubbish. I think this is what frustrates so many excited players, OP and Rubbish are in the same spectrum and most people only vocalize on one end. Which is disingenuous and terrifying for players on the recording end. I would argue the only thing that keeps the Mawcrusher out of obvious NPE is the size of its base which limits it's ability. The game is full of combat NPE hidden behind a shared expectation and nebulous definition.

The short answer is no, you can't move up and charge it, as it can move in the shooting phase so be more than 12" away from you, unless you have a rule that lets you charge 3d6 and make charge rolls from 18" way. The Long Answer is: Wind Spirits assuming they are shooting can be a maximum of 30" away. Meaning they can be quite difficult to pin down if they are being used as a gunboat. On the other hand they only do about 4 dmg a turn at range, so the LRL player won't be getting very much out of the model playing it that way other than as a kite style unit. So the first question is, do you care to kill it? I'm not sure its worth trying to kill, it is a very effective distraction piece as our history shows people get indignant about being shot at. If you are playing against it I probably would suggest ignoring it. Its basically a noob smasher, that offers some utility against models like Archaon where its dmg is useful. If you want to trap it, I would suggest waiting until the late game when the board is a bit tighter. But really you should be focusing on killing Wardens and being thankful they didn't bring 10 more wardens and 10 more Sentinels. The battalion says units wholly within 12" of a hero from the battalion counts a having charged for the Move Like the Wind rule. However to be eligible to pile-in you still need to be within 3" of a unit.

The rule is freely available on War-Com and has been since the 23rd of March, if you're going to comment don't you think you have some responsibility to do some simple research? You can see how a failure to do so would lead a person to the imply you don't know other rules? Can I rely on you coming here and posting you were incorrect?

Loreseekers are just that, they seekout powerful artefacts and arcane knowledge dubbed by the Lumineth as too dangerous to be in the wild, which leads to the rule about enemy artefacts and the random CP it generates *shrug*. They are loners for the most part and operate independently of LRL forces. In WHFB he would have had a rule that meant he couldn't be the general or something, but AoS doesn't tend to do those sorts of rules. They are actually quite fluffy in a very wholistic way... Loreseekers say everything you need to know about LRL haha They are LRL James Bonds basically.

So your example is two completely separate and mutually exclusively situations. The range example is easily resolved Charge anything, retreat+run, pile-in from 4" fight, and kill (Depending on your IJ build Mawcrusher can cover between 28" and 30" on average and up to 33 and 35" at peak). And can be done by anything with the IRONJAWZ keyword. In the 2.9" example the Hurukan units aren't eligible to pile-in from 6" they can move 6" when they pile-in its the bad bonus pile-in not the Sisters of Slaughter version. So your second point is just wrong on its face. It is a perfect example of why the rule isn't what you are describing, it just takes a moment's thought to resolve a solution. But that all ignores that a 300 point model that does 4 dmg from range isn't worth the effort to chase around the board. But thanks for doubling down on rules you don't seem to know.

Yeah it just a thought, tbh I wouldn't buy the models without the book in my hands first.