JackStreicher

My hype was smashed into the dirt by the price tag XD apart from that: Nice box.

Sad but true. ^^

rigid thinking. You need way too few ressources to achieve immortality atm. And no, no model should be immortal as long as you can buff it up a little. We're not talking about complex, accurate movement or well performed plans to make something immortal. You basically spent one CP and chuckle, maybe some magic and maybe an aura. And nothing stops you from repeating this over and over and over again. And suddenly immortl for a turn becomes "immortal whenever I need it". This is plainly stupid. Morathi dies, after 3 turns. She barely has any defenses. Gotrek dies to massed 1dmg attacks and he is really slow.

That's at least true for most scenarios. In some archaon will ping-pong among objectives murdering everthing you have XD

agreed. It also has financial consequences which are most likely neglectable: I for one love the look of the new Vanquisers and vigilors. However I won't spent money, or make room in my display case, for miniatures whose rules are just bad. That's ~ 90€-180€ less they've earned, due to being sloppy with rules (warscrolls) once again. @Kadeton There is no such thing is though units. They are beyond tough which is the big part of the issue. In most situation they're immortal unless you can throw one hundret wounding attacks at them.

So no Yndrasta XD

I also loved their Amon Hen Gaming Table and in general all of their Lord of the Rings Tables. Back in the day it inspired my friends and me to build a (very solid) Helms Deep in all its glory!

We simply need at least one CA or spell that grants +1 rend

I remember that as well 😍😍

My perspective is narrow on purpose btw. “The complexity is deciphering what the presence of that mechanic means on the table.“ Which isn’t hard. Most decisions are logical consequences to the current situation and what you plan on doing and or avoiding the next turn. You are thinking way too broad here. You are looking for the very fundamentals of words, definitions etc. However I don‘t think these are required at all. Don’t overcomplicate a circumstance if it isn’t necessary.

I knew it would come to this and I simply disagree. Save stacking is neither complex to apply nor hard to use in a game-mechanical and tactical sense. The whole point of this is that it is too easy and too abundant. The same goes for when not to attack something and what to do "against" save stacking. First off, there is nothing you can "do" against it, it happens. What you can do is react: Target another unit, run away, screen etc. however those options rather quickly run out, especially if the oponents simply immortalizes key regions of the board. While his "anvils" hammer your units off said board. I know claiming that something needs a high skill cap sounds good, it easily it excludes people from the discussion because usually it implies that they're not part of this elite cirlce of high skilled individuals, however this is AoS, so think again. It's a sad excuse for a bad game mechanic. Sure at some "skill level" anyone can use any bad mechanic and claim that this is only an issue for the peasantry of gaming. It remains absurd however.

This won't happen. I am afraid we're steering into a territory in which AoS becomes increasingly extreme: You either deal zero damage or you nuke whatever you point at off the board with mortal wounds. I understand that people want their anvil to actually tank some damage. Yet common, you shouldn't have an Anvil that's also a Hammer and a Sorcerer, and a Monster, and a Hero at once. You also shouldn't be able to have several buffed up anvils. It's not fine to have several of these anvils, it's toxic to the game. People in my group are on a all time low concerning AoS motivation. In an Ideal game a buffed up Hammer VS a buffed up Anvil should result in the same outcome as these units would have in an unbuffed state. If you have to commit minimal Resources to make your Anvil utterly overperform at its job, yet you have to put in a lot of ressources to make you hammer do anything, but still it can't fulfill its job, then the game is in a bad state imo.

Hat Kuron without Morathi has a survivability issue. The whole army dies way too easily. The damage isn’t great either

I like this. Most fixes however arc back to mechanics of the old Warhammer Fantasy or The Ninth Age Basic rend: Strength To put this in AoS terms would mean you'd need another stat that holds the basic rend of each unit and then you add the weapon rend atop of it. -> This however isn't needed, simply give more rend to the weapon. I thought another fix might be to add rend to charging units - Ironjaws would win turn one if this was the case XD

It‘s not. The armies that use this have a lot of Tree-Heroes that become immortal (and or Alarielle) Suddenly you are facing an entire flank (and more) of an army that’s immune to rend with +1 to their saves as well #Fun that’s hurtling a flurry of mortal wound spells and rend -2 attacks with 5-6 damage each your way. Oh and they can teleport. Did I mention that they have quite some healing spells? You see where I am going with this. It’s the big monsters (And Kurnoth hunters) once again. Alarielle for example is immortal in this build unless you can I start kill her or have a lot of mortal wound potential. At some point in the game one can’t handle that nonsense anymore. I am also not sure if my 2x6 Ishlean Guard with a 2+ unrendable save holding whatever they charge (for forever) is fine. Sure mortal wounds can kill them and suddenly it’s feel bad for both sides.

One Aura is fine, however it‘s not if you can telegraph it to a strung out unit with 50mm bases And add in a Hiveswarm and And And. Aura Aura is okay, multiples of it Are not. @Doko Soulblight can‘t heal Vampires including Knights. Their invocation abilities only work on summonable units: Bats, wolves, zombies, all kinds of Skeletons.

Nice (scientific) approach. We should forward this to GW.

It’s funny 'cause it’s true

All they need to add is to add the following simple sentence: “a save can never be improved to be lower than 3+„ or remove the ability of rend being cancelled by bonus saves. You can only get +1 save, period. And all the feel bad situations are gone, while monsters and heroes remain tanky.

Sounds good to me!

Too much generalization. I know people like to think (or to put) things (are) simple, however there’s a lot more to it than that. You are basing your argument on a single example: Point and kill the highest priority target, which save-stacking stops. That’s not what it is about though. The issue comes up when armies are able to stack saves on multiple units, making it mathematically impossible to do anything (scoring/killing etc.) about it. No screen, no tactics are going to be any good if your opponent can hit the „nah, you‘re not doing anything in your turn“ over and over again. One example: I had a game in which I was unlucky enough to not get rid of an endless spell and a mystic shield twice in a row which resulted in half his army having +3 to their save (so ignoring any rend and having +1 save) and he started to mob up my units which were slower and couldn’t deal any damage. I would not care about save stacking if it was the way you think it is. It‘s not. It can easily reach dimensions that stop the game from being a game. BTW.: I was playing vs Sylvaneth and he simply projected his save bubble through kurnoth hunters, making them, a Treehero, Alarielle and more trees basically immortal for two turns in a row. While dealing absurd amounts of mortal wound and normal damage. He basically rofl-stomped across my army. What a good game. This isn’t limited to cheesy Sylvaneth lists however. Other armies can pull of equally braindead combos that stop any game from happening. (S2D comes to mind, though that army has other issues) Save stacking would be fine IF you could not pull Mass Save buffs off at all.

I agree that NH might be better if the points of their non heroes would drop by ~ 40%

StD really need a rewrite in order to: - Get their theme right (Knights and Warriors need to be menacing, not pathetic | Tzeentch Demon Princes should be wizards etc.) - Cleaning the bloat and outdated abilities - Massive Warscroll rewrites for all Warcry warbands (combine them to a single cultist horde with unified rules) - Nerfing of Archaon - Be creative

Yes, I remember you showing nothing and I remember you claiming that your (faulty) opinion suddenly is objective instead of subjective. About that and the way you wrote in my quote: I highly dislike vain people, it’s the most useless and paltry and more often than not unwarranted personality trait that exists. We are talking about a toy game here. So if you want a discussion and people listening to you, you should stop that behavior. And realize that your behavior is based on pushing little plastic toys around. one army? Nighthaunt. Why? Apparently you know all about the game, so you get the reasons yourself. Back to topic: You are also confusing comp. Play with regular play. comp. play is but a fraction - usually comp. Players don’t mind anything because comp. Play is about rules abuse, min-maxing and finding ways to beat the meta. Spoiler alert: Regular games don’t care about this, they’re about fun. So if the fun is impaired for the majority of players the game is in trouble.

This still happens (yet I don’t feel like this was an issue in 2.0), now however you either survive due to stacking, or you die to a gazillion mortal wounds. There’s really little left inbetween. @Phasteon imo it is the worst tool due to the way it is accessible to factions. Some have auras in different phases stacking up +3 save for half of the army, others can only get +1 save due to mystic shield etc. The whole „just screen and it is fine“ argument is simply the worst and not thought through: There’s a battle going on, at some point there’s nothing left to screen. Also thinking savestacking is fine because, you know, one army can still shoot you to bits and another army has a lot of mortal wounds is quite a weak argument in a game with 16? armies. Save stacking has simply been the worst experience I‘ve had since the old Slaanesh. It’s unevenly distributed, has no counterplay and most armies have no tools to deal with it. It‘s an all around feel bad to the point, that after 40 AoS games in this Edition I don’t feel like playing anymore. How to fix it? 1. Add a +1 rend Spell and Command ability for all factions Or Limit the amount of +1 save a unit can receive to a Max of +2 and add a -1 rend command ability