mmimzie
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Pinks dont cost 200 they coet 220 or more. General to get around the summining range and screen length issue. You summon blues and brim early. You do so by killing your own pinks via endless spells, and then that also justifies fold reality as you can then fold reality your pinks to either get more pinks back or sacrafice more. The endless spell also adds value to your destiny dice rolls of 1. As you can use your 1s to auto pass morale and get more pinks. Generally as a whole endless spells are little bit bad, but when you are using them to farm pinks as well as dish out some hurt, they become very worth while. As far as screens go genially yes you do bring more screens outside pinks. Blues, chaos warriors, acolytes, and tzaangors all make great screens depending on what you want to use them for.
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i can see what kairos does and how one would pick it over an LoC but i wouldn't> As far as enlightend go if your bringing the 9 man enlightend unit they are a hit squad. Most missions are done by about turn 3, or you can discern whcih side will win or lose. further more in the current meta its about units that hit hard, so when they connect they wipe out whole blocks of troops. I'm looking at evocators/enlightend/morrsarr/ witch aelves. Enlightend are compared to the previous made out of actual glass they cost more, don't get as hard, and die faster than any of the previously mentioned. The point of the enlightend is they move 16" and fly allowing them to charge from a protected position. If i'm playing in a competive environment (which i do) than you'll find your enlightend will get dusted quickly, but this is okay. You have the speed to strike first meaning you can kill your opponents more important models, or take and important objective. Fold reality is a auto win option should your opponent fail to kill your enlightend on the counter swing. That said the enlightend living is an if not a certainty and so invest in kairos, to me seems wasteful. Otherwise the speed of your enlightend doesn't really exist, and your jsut using them to gently poke things, as you can really commit as your trying to keep them hidden by screens. In which case you might consider just bringing units of 3 enlightend like they do in beast of chaos. As beast of chaos and tzeentch use enlightend very differently. Beast use the enlightend as a very strong consistant damage force, trying to bank on slowly pushing the board. using there heavy first turn board jump and near auto turn 1 to secure ground early. So in this case the enlightend are just making sure you keep ground. In DoT, you have no such luxury instead you use the enlightend along side your wizards as spot remove to clear up space for summoning to steal objectives you have no bussiness getting. Which the enlightend do by being our hardest hitting hammer unit smashing throw key units. WIth fold reality being a great trump card should any live through your opponent's potential double turn. It's the double turn that makes kairos just no reliable. Basicly by taking kairos you are saying i think 9 enlightend are worth ~800pts of your list. Sure the die roll adjust can be used on other things, but you wouldn't take kairos with you the enlightend. As for his spell a magister has nearly the same spell only doing doing and average of 1.5 less mortal wound damage. I think kairos can do great things, and he has in competive list. However, if you run up against the meta big boys i think a kairos list will lose 70% of the time, as those list will trade even with your enlightend, however kairos won't make his pts back. Meaning you'll be left lagging behind your opponent with a 380pt paper weight. His not bad, but in the meta he's bad. If you want a list that will do well in your local gaming shop; kairos will smash face most the time, and so will an LoC list. The difference is the LoC is stronger against the meta.
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i dont think kairos is all that worth it as he's only useful in match ups where your opponent can't just ace your unit of enlightend in a single turn. Which is the current competive meta.
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I think with out pinks you need to run more enlightend/skyfyres otherwise you aren't going to be effective enough. Your acolytes will evaporate and your only insured one good shot with your enlightend before the game goes tot he dice gods hoping you don't get double turns or ytour opponent deosn't spike down your unit of enlighted before you can heal them. From there you don't have enough long game to beable to risk losing your 9 enlightend. As summoning via spell casting just isn't enough to keep you in the game. I'd either add in some pinks to give you a long game or go heavier on the enlightend/skyfyres.
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You can definitly use destiny dice to cast, just it sucks if you get games where you don't get the destiny dice you need, and they are taken for other things. LoC +gaunt is like the go to combo right now as it lets you take out key heros. Anywho yeah mess around with it. See what works and what doesn't.
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The summones are tied to the allegiance ability. So if you run DoT you can use fate pt to summon or use the beast of chaos summoning. DoT can not summon enlightened only , the full daemon units. While beast of chaos can not summon daemons units, only beast of chaos units via the herd stone. So if he is, he's cheating, knows something i dont, or is mistaken. Ill post replys abit later when in less busy.
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This specifically is beast of chaos. You can get both DoT summoning and BoC summoning. As for the rest of your post. I can't tell you have to beat every kind of DoT list you can make. Give a battle report for better advice and what list you or your friends are using. The tzaangors on foot do hit hard, but like many other 32mm base sized units can only get about a max of 10 into combat. If hes baying 3 times the price for those 10 models attack you should do well of you play right and bring the tools to succeed. Any good hammer unit would just crish that 30 tzaangor block. Maybe not in a single turn, but 9 enlightend, 30 witch aevles (these could do it in a turn maybe), 20 evocators, 6-9 morrsarr guard, or qny other bug smashy unit your army has access too. All of the above can eqsily kill 15+ models, and lose a relaticely small about on the counter swing. Each of those also cost quite a bit less than their target. Edit: Also this game does have a skill element. I'm not saying your bad. I'm just daying your friend might also just be better at the game and he might be able to win with any competent list. A battle report with lists would be the best way to get help.
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unbind 1 spell and he can't bring anything in. Fate pt summoning is one of the weakest mechanics in the game. Namely because there are only so many spells and only so many benefits to cast you can get. Out side of pink who get +2 to cast with LoC help, and LoC, and a Gaunt summoner who gets +2 with LoC help and throws 2 spells for cheap. You start getting taxed quickly. Out side of the actual value of fate pt summoning. Theres the power of pink horror milling. Now that is some good value and very fast, for one spell you can get 3.5x2x#pink horror units worth of blue horror pts. Then get a bunch of free battle shock rolls to try to get more free pinks. To stop this it's about board control. Fast armies that can get on an enemy unit turn 1 are where it's at. Charging and locking down the table can very quickly and easily hamper summoning. In this case the most dangerous summoning army DoT can muster is Multi-horde. While this army has numbers the punch is rather muted and it's punch is only as strong as the endless spells you manage to cram into the list. Which compared to witch elves/enlightend/morrsarr/evocators just isn't enough damage out put to be reliable. As such a rather tanky or hrode army that can also move quickly will win on objectives alone.
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The real answer is they are kind of not worth it if you aren't bringing without the blue/brim back up. Pinks are a value unit all about letting you artificially have more points in a game than you should. They are a a bit over costed for what they are, but a tiny bit of effort and they because very high value. I know you want to stick with the tzaangor coven, i'd say keep the units but drop the battalion. Use the rest of the points to either boost one or both enlightend/skyfyres to 9 man units or to do the previous and make them on disc. Is the gaunt summoner your general?? with out LoC you are going to definitely want him to be with arcane sacrifice so you can make his spell more reliable. Otherwise i'd drop him as hard casting a 7+ (factoring the already +1 to cast) isn't worth the effort in my opinion. Similar might be true for the ogroid, a chaos lord might be pretty cool as his buff is amazing with a great casting value.
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The hero is certainly slow you could definitely bring a herald on disc as a different cheap her, but he's useless otherwise. So its either a strong hero in the magister or a useless on e that is fast and can summon far off. The point of acolytes is to die. Thats why you take them. They die so others dont have to. They are also very cheap. The tzaangors can be good but it depends on your local meta. If 5hey are bring big bad killy units those tzaangors will just be expensive acolytes. Basicly is 9 enlightend charge 10 tzaangors, the 10 tzaangors are dead. Alternatively if they are charging 10 acolytes.... they are also dead. The difference being with the acolytes atleast you have 100pts of other stuff when you bring the acolytes. LoC wise mine is never in combat, and the 1 game he was i lost lol.
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I like the first one. Id drop yhe endless spells for a damage endless spell to kill your pinks. Id also find room for 9 skyfryes as you want enough to hit hard enough to matter.
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I agree and disagree. I think building and paint lots of models is a bunch of work. Specially to the level of detail i am aiming for. Heck i still have over a like 80 more blue or brims to complete, and don't get me started on basing. That said its the most realistic tournament horde army to play. Appart from deployment and summoning you really dont have to move much, and all you really need to do is roll some quick shooting attack and resolve some spells. Maybe tie something up with a dummy charge. So alittle of A, and alittle of B. Heck the building/painting is why i haveny really explored multitudious horde all that much.
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Yeah i like both those thoughts. I wonder though. Why not 2 units of pinks??i think the tzaangors are kind of meh they are a little fighty, but i don't value alittle fighty. Its either alot of punch to where you put them into a unit, and it dies; or you have precision where you can target down heros and other key units. On your planned list deal. Yeah mortal woulds are bit weaker against nurgle, while enlightend are abit weaker against legions of nagash. Ever list will have a weakness. If you are dead set on combining maybe try: Magister 10xpink (fold reality) 10xpink (fold also, or unchecked) 9x enlightend Pendulum 1k pts Thing is with this list your are running around with a big hammer. It's pretty take all comers, but i think LoN would be a tough game. New goblund would be tough. Any super horde regenersting army will be a struggle. As with out those precision tools to remove summoners, you'll find that your enlightend smash something only to get smashed right back.
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Hey make sure you have 3 battle line as said above. Either go 9 skyfyres nad have what is basicly auto cast tzneetch's fire storm+ or run 9 enlghtend on disc for a big smashy unit. Going first and the endless spells don't really mix so much as msot of them are quite very close range and you can't modify the range of endless spells only get yourself closer making launching the things abit annoying. The best endless spell using list i'd say is kind of maybe change host?? as you can get double doubt out of the endless spells allowing you to both sac you horrors and thus summon faster and farm value, while also arming all your horrors with more deadly spells so they can do more serious gamage. Overseers is weird Its powerful, but you'll struggle to get enough stuff to take advantage of the destiny dice. So it's a toughy.
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because you are spending 100pts on two things that have a CHANCE to be useful IF you go first and if no they are useless. Also to get both out you are wasting some important cast attempts on important models. Either way i like the 2nd list more, i'd still also give fold reality to the pink horrors and drop the shaman for a sorcorer lord. His buff is twice the power of the shaman's aura when you are attacking first with your enlightend. Which you'll want to be doing despite there amazing attacking 2nd buff. It will let you be more offensive. The shaman is better when you get charged and counter attack as that actualy stacks, but killing more when you pick who fights who (IE your turn) is almost infinitly better than killing more when your opponent picks who you are fighting, even more so when your opponent has the option to either wipe your squad so you get no counter attacks or they can decide to just play keep away. The real loss between sorc and shaman is the loss in speed. As the shaman make a great long range summoner. either way i'd put fold on the pinks. The pinks have +2 to cast when in the aura buff of your LOC and fold is the more powerful/useful spell over something like unchecked mutation. You lose out on the turn one opertunity to cast unchecked aggressively, but i value fold reality higher. if you down grade the shaman, drop the shackles and the vortex you could grab a unit of kairic acolytes. Or you could drop the portal and shackles for the kairic acolytes. I like 4 screen units, makes you near immune to double turns. That said you list is likely fine as is i'm more just nit picking. Happy Holidays
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only take cogs if you are gonna pick up the mark of conjuration, that said i think feather charm LoC is where it's at for the +1" move and -1 to hit. Balewind +arcane sacrafice is alright, but i prefer the portal. I like the portal because it's more flexible and gives your the heros the option to stay way back while they cast. While balewind + arcane lets you cast potentialy cast 2 spells with the gaunt summoners. The reason i prefer the portal is it's basicly +18" range on 1 spell. Which means you can really set up deep, while still threatening characters and big units alike with both the LoC and the Gaunt summoner. While the bale wind only lets you threaten horde units with the gaunt summoner, and is only a +6" (or a + 9" with sacrafice). That said you are just running 1 pink unit and quick silver + sacrafice is a great combo for getting pinks out quickly. I prefer fold reality on the pink horrors?? i like making that spell more reliable, but just a reference thing. i'd be careful on too many more support units, and maybe focus on more key units like maybe more pinks?? or an ogroid that can help you take more table space. Oh consider swaping the shaman for a chaos sorc lord, he's a stronger wizard. that said the shaman is a fast moving summoner. Kairos has a spell that while okay, has too high a casting value with no way of him buffing his own casting values outside of fate pts. The setting dice thing is either jsutb etter than a +1 to cast to just worse. more acolytes wouldn't be bad as they are anoying buddies, blues/pinks wouldn't be bad as well.
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you only get mortal wounds from 1 or the other on any given unit just as the buff. SO no double wounds.
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I don't like the LoC with mark of conjuration any longer, and even more so don't like spending pots on the cogs. The swords are fine. and there are ways to be cheaky and get the out of range for them to hit anything but your pinks again, general my pinks stay the most behind my army if they are just there to kill themselves and fold themselves. You can always un summon and re summon your swords should you feel the need to.
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You can only dispel endless spell at the start of a turn so @CountryMou3e's plan wont work so much. Either way this is probably why I prefer pendulum and burning head. As pendulum can be set up so it wont come back, and burning head doesnt hurt that much or spike as high as swords. Anyway it's an average 4 mortals that could spike alot more for sure. That said if it's the case that you dont control your spell than you are going first, so it isnt all that bad. As you say with quick silver swords it isnt too hard to set it up so that the swords are to far to come back and hit you. Also, you get a whole movement phase to widen that gap should you need.
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The list I posted as acolytes and pink horrors. That's 2 battle line?? Sce does have wizards I don't run glimpse on the summoner hes a damage dealer not a support. Glimpse I put on a wizard for them to cast of they are out of range of other stuff. I dont really bank on glimpse alot a 7+ to cast is really bad. Sure it's slightly more likely than not, but it isnt far off from being a 50/50 chance. Your over analyzing the ogroid spell. Its definitly nice, but I wouldnt necessarily compare it to the gaunt summoner casting bolt. Name because LoC + Gaunt+ (x)Pink combo exist. The gaunt summoner and pinks are basicly always at +2 to cast and the LoC's matching ruin is a tiny bit worse/better than +1 to cast. Comparitively, the ogroid cant be buffed by the LoC because hes not a daemon. So you bolt of tzneetch on the gaunt and pinks is a 6+ to cast. Even more so the gaunt summoner has 2 spells casting on a 6+ bolt and infernal flames vs the ogroid's 1. Even if infernal is weak in your match up compared to most spells it does quite very respectable damage, while in match ups where spell is good its bonkers. Basicly in my opinion the gaunt summoner/LoC combo is always quite strong, in both big games and in small ones. Now on how killable the LoC is. The feather charm gives the LoC -1 to being hit. Meaning each ballista if at close range will only do 2.6 wounds on average a turn. So even with the indicators you aren't dropping that LoC turn 1, and as you say with some cheeky deployment, and having access to spell portal the LoC can deploy back behind your screen. Looking at the gaunt summoners durability he does have basicly 10 wounds but counts as a character with 6, he also gets that -1 to being hit. So the power couple can be tough to put down from afar.
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Again man if you aren't having any problems, Then you got it good luck keep up the good work. You need no critques from us. Don't read further nothing more for me to impart for you have already evolvated past the any help i could provide. May your games treat you well. However, your thought is a bubble that the evocators are going to charge your front line and bait themselves into getting 2nd turned by enlightend they can't even attack. The storm cast can deep strike and it's a game of points. If the evocator play wants he can ignore you and beat you on pts. If you are going as slow as acolytes accross the table why not jsut take the enlightend on foot then you could have 9 of those <.<... Otherwise if i was the stormcast opponent i'd have all my balista drop down shoot up your enlightend and follow up at some point iwth evocators, and then shake your hand good game. the 6 enlightend don't threat the evocators offensively, as you can hope for is you some how trap them in a combat where you get to go second with your enlightend. The 9 has threat on the evocators. For one many of the missions in matched play right now are 18" no mans land meaning the enlightend with no help can turn 1 charge if need be and 9 will take care of evocators or whatever else you throw them at. Where if you throw 6 accross the table they'll struggle to kill the evocators at all and really jsut have to wait for some other unit to run in and be a catty for the enlightend. Also, you don't have to go first/second the 9 enlightend on disc will be threats longer than the 6 will be so even going second or going first and needing a turn to set up a threat zone you can still punish some evocators. The enlightend move more than double that of evocators, Lastly, you want the 9 for fold reality. If you just have 6 that's very easy for evocators and a ballista to take out if you try to be aggressive with them. Where as the 9 if you lose 6-8 you have atleast 1 left that can be a target for fold reality. Anywho you seem content with your army as is and as long as you are happy. Than i am very happy for your army and hope it does well friend. Good luck! I don't LOVE the ogroid, but in longer games he's nice as his spell can single handedly flip objectives against throw away units. That said it's abit of a 50/50 casting roll that i dont like. Recently i've realized the chaos sorc lord's buff is amazing and is a really reliable spell for enlightend. Mind you i've only poked at a few 1k games with tzneetch, but have done alot with my deepkin. Anyway my magic heavy and the only 1k list i've done any messing with for my tzneetch would be: LoC W/ Fearther Charm +Magical Supremacy (Firestorm or bolt) Gaunt summoner (unchecked mutation or Bolt) Magister Pink horrors (fold reality) Kairic Acolytes Quick Silver Swords The magister could be dropped for more Acolytes/blue horrors.
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Ogroid (glimpse ) Tzaangor shaman (fold reality) 9 enlightend on disc 2x 10 katic acolytes +60pts for whatever you want. Tzaangor shaman is whatever wizard that has access to the daemon tree. He also gets that once per game rerollable extra spell. He could also be a herald on disc if you wanted 10 more kairic acolytes. Ogroid let's you cheese out the enlightend. Letting you charge, and use the brims first in combat, forcing your opponents one unit to attack and activate rerolls. 9 enlightend on disc while the above sounds nice you want these guys charging in and striking first if they have to. The above is more of a luxury idea. The 9 enlightend should be able to wipe out the evocators and sequitors on contact in a single turn going first. Lastly you have 60 extra pts. as above you can add more kairics if you bust the shaman down. If you drop the shaman entirely you could take pink horrors. You could take the pendulum since the shaman is fast and can throw it in somes ones face. Prismatic palisades would potentially help against the ballista. Personally I prefer the magic list even knowing your going against those stormcast.
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@Kharneth knight indicators get a once per game auto unbund. @Pandamina those once per game scrolls can be annoying but that doesnt mean you lose on the spot. With 6 spells at 1kpts vs only a one maybe 2 knight incantors (they are 140 pts each). Even bringing more that really doesnt shut down all but a single turn. Using magic in AoS is like playing a hand of poker where you pick your cards, but pay for them. If you show up with a cheap less that strong hands you are going to get shut out by any other weak or better hand. However if you show up in force, in which tzneetch brings the most powerful magic phases in the game... than your magic phase will be near unstoppable. Even a few knight incantors will be but minor announcances. While, looking at your list compared to the one you posted. I feel like your enlightend just wont hit hard enough to kill an evocator unit with a lord arcanum near by same goes for the sequaitors. While the ballista can drop several enlightend a turn. But again if your list is doing well as is then, it's doing well. There is definitly no need to shoot down everyone trying to offer any advice when you posted your list asking for criticism. As for beating the list you posted I'd go for more focus. Either harder on the tzaangors or harder on the magic. At 1k pts splitting your focus doesnt work out as well as focusing on one or the other. For instance 9 enlightend can quickly reach out and drop a unit of evocators. While the powerful reroll ability Is good, it's more a defensive deterrent than being the sole reason for bringing the unit. So 9 is better in that it pack a stronger initial punch, while 9 are enough model to survive heavy damage and still have model left to stack back with rerolls. From there you can back them up with maybe a few wizards or tzaangor. Or go heavy magic. Gaunt summoner packing bolt of change and his base spell. His base spell doing am average 2.5 mortal wounds while bolt of change packs an average 3.5 mortals (not facotimg casting values). Then add in a lord of change his spell before wounds bring an average 6 mortal wounds and have him also packing firestorm which is an average 4 mortal wounds, while his command ability buffs your spell powers. From there a unit of horrors and quick silver swords to kill them with wouldnt be a bad idea. Between the two of them they can kill a squad or two a turn, while the pink horrors work the swords and fold reality to help you farm a small bit of value.
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I think you'll find your hero limit is tied to how many good spells you can cast in a turn. Basicly, I'd take heros as needed to drop 6 wounds of character or whole units a turn. For instance looking at the LoC his on personal spell when cast does and average of 6 wounds which tends to be enough to 1 shot most on foot heros at ranged. So look at there spells and think about how that is going to out in units kills. It was in the FAQ that you use the newest warscroll of the same name or something like that.
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You plan work if you go first, but failing going first you can't castle up. You need to strike hard and make a hole where in which you can build your castle. Heck 6 enlightend with no buff can only barely kill 12 witch aelves, and if you opponent brings any thing sturdier you are in a bad way. The shaman isn't 'bad' he's not cost effective, but he does make 6/9 enlightend hit alittle harder which is important when you realize that the surface area of your combat is limited, so buffing your more focused damage can be quite important. i have played lots of 1k games with my deepkin, and maybe your group hasn't figured it out, but bigger units especially monsters are actualy more powerful at 1k pts than they are at 2k because they are basicly unstopable killing machiens unless pitted again same. MY deepking list runs the ediolon and he just doesn't die unless pin by a rather heavy hammer, as both types heal d3 or 2d3 a round. Along with surival relics they can't and wont be stopped, and are fast enough that they don't care about your screens and the wizards can throw a few nasty spell past screen to pick appart heros. It's one model and the enlightend being so clunky can easily be taken on the flank so any form of counter attack from them is only 2 or 3 models strong. While the gaunt summoners spell isn't great if faced with no big units to chuck it out, remember most spells do maybe what 3-6 wounds on the high end and far less on the low end. The gaunt summoners spell against even a 10 man unit when compared is 5 more wounds... thats more than you'd get out of bolt of change, and speaking of which the gaunt summoner gets 2 spells to throw and can also throw bolt of change or glimpse the future or whatever else you want. Anyway your meta is what it is, but the power of 1k pts level is actualy more in favor of big units as they are neigh unstoppable until they've done so much damage to you that there is no more game to play. when a maw crusher charges your blue horror line after breath waeponing them, kills the rest with destructive bulk, and then kills all of your enlightend in just 1 turn you'll see how strong big bad things are at 1k pts. But, so long as your same, then *shrug.*
