Chaos Spawn Confusion

[Oshikai]

Greetings Community, 

New AOS Player here about to Start BoK. I was assembling some New Spawns for an umpcoming Multiplayer Battle. While looking up the rules again I noticed that in the App and in the Shop there is only the Warscrolls for the Tzeentch Marked Spawn left. No cursed by the Dark Gods Rule anymore.

How is this handled? Am I still allowed to use the old Rules like in Warriors PDF? I would love to rum some Khorne Marked Spawns. Especially with the New Blood Tithe Rules. But even without. ..no chaos without Spawns; P.

Especially since there are still instances in Blades of Khorne that demote your Hero to a spawn . Would be rather odd when this changed his allegiance on the fly.

 

Cheers beforehand and sincere appologies if this is a silly question. I am still confused with all those Tomes, Scrolls etc.

 

[Arkiham]

It's a odd spot.

 

I noticed it on launch day. 

Faq suggests using the most recent warscroll, and summoning a thing doesn't break alligience 

[Jharen]

Chaos Spawn aren't crazy powerful, and marking them as Khorne certainly isn't going to make or break a game I suspect.  Discuss it with your fellow players beforehand and see what they think.  If they're okay with you using the older warscrolls on them then go for it.  I know in my gaming group no one would throw a fit about it but your mileage may vary.

[Oshikai]

Thank you Guys, its as I Expected. 

YeaH, I know it doesn't break allegiance but it just...feels wrong :D.

Yeah, I am gonna ask in my Group and hope that GW brings that back in the Future. 

Its more about the modelling and Fluff aspect in that regard for me.

Spawns belong to Chaos the same way Deamon Princes do, but in know way will I include Non-Khorne Models for that Game.

Thanks again

[Killax]

Keep in mind you have to pay for that Spawn. My tip: Instead let it die, spend points on good stuff and gain a Blood Tithe point.

Khorne is about threat saturation, all eggs in one basket is not the Khorne style, though it never really was.

[Jharen]

My suspicion is that chaos spawns are being tossed Tzeentch's way because Khorne has Khorgoraths as his creepy nasty chaos beasts.   So if it's just a theme you're after for including them in your army then go with Khorgoraths.  You could make those chaos spawn models into custom Khorgoraths pretty easily.

[Dave Fraser]

Spawn aren't included in the points at the back of the khorne book which would appear to support this though it's speculative at best.

I'd considered having a spawn to then damage twice with slaughterpriests in the hope of it dying to immediately generate 3 tithe points too but then I figured just having prayers which gave other buffs would be more reliable and the tithe table is just the cherry on top instead of the objective of the prayers.

[Roark]

I just built 3 spawn to accompany my Blades of Khorne as cheap annoyances and part of my MSU blood tithe generation. I'll be pretty narked if they're suddenly incompatible. 

[Killax]

Again you can include several non-Khorne models and still pick the Khorne Alliance as your prime Alliance. However as above we have so much Khorne related synergy going on that I feel those 60-180 points of Spawns are really best invested elsewhere. 

Like @Jharen said, it's likely that the Khorgorath is "our spawn" though I do think it's a pitty that Mark of the Destroyer doesn't refer to a Khorgorath but a Chaos Spawn instead.

As before, I wouldn't include it becuase I feel we have many other ways to spend those points more wisely and this doesn't stop me from using Mark of the Destroyer at all. 60 points will also get you The Bloodlords, Daemonic Legion of Khorne, Gorethunder Cohort, Red Headsmen, Chaos Marauders and almost a unit of Blood Reavers. If your willing to go 3 Spawns I'd try to include 2 Khorgoraths instead.

[Roark]

Thanks mate.

I don't know what prime alliance means.

I want to play a Khorne army (with the bells and whistles that brings) with single units of 60pt Khorne-marked Spawn. It was part of a plan. That no longer seems to be possible, and I've wasted my time and money. Hence my whining, which I will now cease.

Edit: Regarding "prime alliance" - are you under the impression that one can have a Khorne Allegiance even with non-Khorne starting units? Coz that's not the case...

[Arkiham]

 

3 hours ago, Killax said:

Again you can include several non-Khorne models and still pick the Khorne Alliance as your prime Alliance.  

 no you cannot. you can pick chaos as your allegiance. 

[Killax]

5 hours ago, Roark said:

Thanks mate.

I don't know what prime alliance means.

I want to play a Khorne army (with the bells and whistles that brings) with single units of 60pt Khorne-marked Spawn. It was part of a plan. That no longer seems to be possible, and I've wasted my time and money. Hence my whining, which I will now cease.

Edit: Regarding "prime alliance" - are you under the impression that one can have a Khorne Allegiance even with non-Khorne starting units? Coz that's not the case...

Well I should say Allegiance, my non-English background is showing through.
Though it's important to see this tidbit because it's an essential part of the question. 

- You can play a Khorne army with a single Spawn and have the Khorne Allegiance, however by doing so you cannot have the Spawn as a starting unit, however my initial comment was the use for it in relation to Mark of the Destroyer. In which case you can have Spawn show up, if you wanted to.

- The Chaos (Tzeentch) Spawn cannot be a starting unit for a Khorne army, an army that follows the Khorne Allegiance. Keep in mind that nothing currently requires you to be mono Khorne, it just means that you become a regular Chaos army, with a Chaos Allegiance.

A Chaos Allegiance does not have acces to:
- Battle Traits (Blood Tithe) page 79 'Khorne army reference'
- Artefacts of Power & Daemonic Gifts page 81 'Khorne army reference'
- Blood Blessings of Khorne 'Khorne army reference'
- Command Traits 'Khorne army reference'

4 hours ago, Arkiham said:

 

 no you cannot. you can pick chaos as your allegiance. 

Incorrect. Khorne often is the Allegiance for players who picked up the Blades of Khorne book. In fact you have to to benifit from the Blood Tithe and the others mentioned above. 

 
Page 78 is essential, be sure to read it.

 

--

To come back at the Spawn discussion, you can include it in your Khorne army with it not being a starting unit. Though as mentioned, I don't think it's worth the 60 points. Instead Mark of the Destroyer is great by itself and only generates a minor disadvantage for the insane output you recieve (Mighty Lord of Khorne).

Not all Hero's need Mark of the Destroyer or will even have it but both the Mighty Lord of Khorne and the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut are really good candidates for it. Also keep in mind that while MotD does not double the Mount attacks the Mount attacks still count towards the bearer's kills. Mark of the Destroyer for example doesn't say that the kills have to specifically come from the LoKoJ's Wrathforged Axe attacks. Which is important to remember because as an ex-WFB player myself I still automatically seperate mounts from riders and that isn't the case in AoS.

Cheers,

[Arkiham]

2 hours ago, Killax said:

Incorrect. Khorne often is the Allegiance for players who picked up the Blades of Khorne book. In fact you have to to benifit from the Blood Tithe and the others mentioned above. 

 
Page 78 is essential, be sure to read it.

I understand that.

 

But basically what you're trying to Say is summon a spawn,  summoning doesn't break alligience. And you don't need to say what those summoning points are for.

[Killax]

19 hours ago, Arkiham said:

I understand that.

 

But basically what you're trying to Say is summon a spawn,  summoning doesn't break alligience. And you don't need to say what those summoning points are for.

Yes, as above, if you want to have ANY use for the Spawn we still have it left with Mark of the Destroyer. It's not an option I deem very competative but it still works if players want to go that route, because to my knowledge not even all competative builds are so competative that they do not want to have any narrative part left in it.

So if you want to include a Chaos Spawn for summoning purposes you can, including it as a non-starting unit does not "break" the Khorne Allegiance. 
The Khorne Allegiance in general is rather restrictive in it's summonning. Largely due to not having Wizards but also other design that doesn't work well with points included. Which for lack of better words causes some real 'high competative useless abilities', such as summoning a Spawn from a Mark of the Destroyer Hero or trying to summon a Bloodthirster for 8 Blood Tithe points. 

However we (me included) shouldn't forget that GW's aim isn't only there for the competative point using player, despite most of us probably agreeing that it is easier to work with that way. So for narative play that Spawn has a purpose and 8 Blood Tithe points will allow you to summon a Bloodthirster.

Perhaps General's Handbook V.2.0. will make summoning a more logical option however I believe that for Khorne that damage is done for competative play. Not that it matters too much because Mark of the Destroyer is incredible allready and so are the uses for 1 to 7 Blood Tithe points. 
What upsets me slightly more is the following changes, which seem like simple oversights:
- Skaarac is not Bloodbound
- Scyla is not Monster
- Slaughterbrute of Khorne is not Bloodbound

It's these tree that are basically our Chaos Spawn variants next to the Khorgorath and I think that the whole book would have had another level of depth if these Chaos Spawn variants would have been designed with a little bit more thought in mind...