'Competitive' Disciples of Tzeentch

[Eldercaveman]

19 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

alpha strike lists. you need a decent combat unit. skyfires are squishy so tbh with the increasing amount of long ranged shooting its slowly putting me off using them as theyll just be shot off an battleshocked the rest 

But they have a 40" effective range.  Just hold them back move them into range and fire? At the same time if alongside a Changehost you could have a LOC in the enemy lines ready to charge and maybe summon a soul grinder or bloodthirster to hit another flank. Hopefully the pressure from them will keep any fire off the skyfires. 

I used to run a hard hitting necron list in 40k that was based around Maximum threat overload tactics  (mto) and I think DoT's could do a similar thing. 

[Slave2Chaos]

Here is my take on a competitive DoT trying to go a more Tzaangor heavy route.

The 10man pink are my backfield objective holders that will split into blues and prove to be most annoying. Im not 100% sure on spell selection yet.

List Summary

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Artefact: Phantasmal Weapons 
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Gaunt Summoner (100)

Battleline
20 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (280)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (40)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1970/2000

[Eldercaveman]

Does this book really have what it takes to compete at the top tables?

[Eldercaveman]

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
The Changeling (140)
Herald Of Tzeentch On Disc (120)
- Staff of Change
Archaon (700)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
20 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (80)
20 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Changehost (60)

Total: 2000/2000

What do we think of this. Swap archaon first turn to cause havoc and the Lord of change can just work as a buffer for him. 

[Changer]

So I've got a competitive 2,000 point game against Beastclaw Raiders tomorrow. Here's the 'all comers' list I've come up with.

Leaders

Lord of Change (300) - General (Incorporeal Form), Wellspring of Arcane Might, Tzeentch's Firestorm.

Gaunt Summoner and Familiars (120) - Glimpse the Future.

Tzaangor Shaman (120) - Arcane Suggestion

Ogroid Thaumaturge (160) - Timeslip Pendant, Treacherous Bond

Battleline

20 Tzaangor (360)

10 Pink Horrors (140) - Unchecked Mutation

10 Pink Horrors (140) - Bolt of Tzeentch

Units

20 Blue Horrors (100)

10 Brimstone Horrors (40)

6 Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

3 Tzaangor Enlightened (160)

Battalions

Tzaangor Coven (40)

Total: 2000/2000

 

As I said it's really an all comers list, but what do you think?  Should I swap some of the spells / abilities about or am I good as I am?

[TrexPushups]

I have been thinking about the 2 problems people keep worrying about.

1) battleshock removing key pieces like sky fires and tzaanzagors.

2) generals getting shoot dead early.

How about the following option for general:
Tzaanzagor inside a unit of 20-30 with the cult demagogue trait.

You have to do 40 to 60 actual wounds to kill him and all of your arcanites like sky fires etc gain +2 bravery in the mean time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bradifer]

Do we really gain much benefit from keeping 6-9 skyfires in one unit?

I'm thinking 2 x 3 could be better just to prevent battleshock death. Technically it's easier to kill the Tzangor coven part of the skyfires, but you don't really need those AND the Enlightened to be alive in order to achieve the free combat phase for Tzangor's during hero phase.

Also more units of Skyfires means more leader skyfire units with a better bow.

----

Ogroid Thaumaturge, his model is awesome, but is he? For 140 points we can get a Changeling, and man does he really mess with opponents, especially on 3 places of power he can cause such disadvantage for our opponent. He's also great at slowing down key enemy pieces. Another thing you can do is deploy him ~ 3 inches in front of your enemy, then in hero phase reveal him and then they can't move around him, they have to spend a turn charging him. He can also summon 40 points worth of brimstone horrors between him and the next objective, etc.

I'm not bashing the Thaumaturge, just wondering what his job will be.

[Arkiham]

3x3 skyfires is better than 1x9 for offensive things, but when you can use a spell to restore d6(?) models at 4 wounds each thats rather handy 

[Venrex]

7 hours ago, Bradifer said:

Do we really gain much benefit from keeping 6-9 skyfires in one unit?

I'm thinking 2 x 3 could be better just to prevent battleshock death. Technically it's easier to kill the Tzangor coven part of the skyfires, but you don't really need those AND the Enlightened to be alive in order to achieve the free combat phase for Tzangor's during hero phase.

Also more units of Skyfires means more leader skyfire units with a better bow.

----

Ogroid Thaumaturge, his model is awesome, but is he? For 140 points we can get a Changeling, and man does he really mess with opponents, especially on 3 places of power he can cause such disadvantage for our opponent. He's also great at slowing down key enemy pieces. Another thing you can do is deploy him ~ 3 inches in front of your enemy, then in hero phase reveal him and then they can't move around him, they have to spend a turn charging him. He can also summon 40 points worth of brimstone horrors between him and the next objective, etc.

I'm not bashing the Thaumaturge, just wondering what his job will be.

You cany summon brimstones :-(

[Malakithe]

The Ogroid can be a potential monster of a bruiser. With Infusion Arcanum + Arcane Transformation he can get super buffed. Plus if he had an item or was even general he would be nuts.

15 hours ago, Eldercaveman said:

What do we think of this. Swap archaon first turn to cause havoc and the Lord of change can just work as a buffer for him. 

Can't swap Archaon as he isn't part of the battalion or even swap the LoC due to wording. Pick a pair of units within 27" of the LoC. That doesn't include him

[Eldercaveman]

49 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

The Ogroid can be a potential monster of a bruiser. With Infusion Arcanum + Arcane Transformation he can get super buffed. Plus if he had an item or was even general he would be nuts.

Can't swap Archaon as he isn't part of the battalion or even swap the LoC due to wording. Pick a pair of units within 27" of the LoC. That doesn't include him

Archaon I realised was a mistake but isn't the Lord of change a unit within range of himself according to the FAQS? 

[RoloMcFury]

Digging into the immense amount of options the Changehost + Hosts Duplicitous setup offers, I've come up with a few ideas:

1. Through the use of swapping a chaff unit with Changeling and summoning some other chaff unit from atop a Balewind (probably plaguebearers), you can effectively pin your opponent wherever they deployed. This gives you an extra turn to move forward and get set up (possibly on objectives). Furthermore, if you swap a more costly Pink Horrors unit into their face (getting to cast a potent spell with them as well as spread out 9" and move) you can save reinforcement points for the Blue Horrors they will spawn as well as the Brimstone Horrors those blues will spawn. In effect, you can buy yourself another turn of limiting your opponent's movement by placing these horrors just a few inches back from the dying unit. Being leadership 10, your opponent needs to basically kill them to a man to get past the roadblock, only to have another unit of Horrors to deal with. This saves you from the sheer terror of your opponent going second and landing a double turn (to some extent).

2. The Balewind gives some of our most potent spells all the range we need. For example, Gaunt Summoner using the "Arcane Sacrifice" general trait (along with the Balewind) has an insane 45" range to cast his spells, including his profile spell (killing 20 man squads in one fell swoop possibly) and the Hosts Duplicitous spell (rendering their best unit 1/3 as effective, assuming a +3/+3 profile). You can combine this with the above pinning plan to really shut an opponent down on turn 1. A Pink Herald can be used similarly, potentially firing off two different D6 MW spells at targets up to 36" away (or more with a swap). Combined with fate dice, you can guarantee a kill on an important hero (up to 11-12 wounds even!).

 

[Malakithe]

9 hours ago, Eldercaveman said:

Archaon I realised was a mistake but isn't the Lord of change a unit within range of himself according to the FAQS? 

Hmm yeah I guess that would work lol

[Malakithe]

Why is it so hard to make a mixed list? What smallish battalions could work for a daemons + Tzaangor list? Or maybe toss in some StD?

[RoloMcFury]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Why is it so hard to make a mixed list? What smallish battalions could work for a daemons + Tzaangor list? Or maybe toss in some StD?

Hosts Duplicitous aside, I think Changehost is pretty much always a good call. You'll be running Blue/Brimstone Horrors as line blockers in any Tzeentch list already, along with the obligatory Lord of Change (basically a Thundertusk with that profile spell). I'd say the Pink Horrors are the only real tax, as I think Tzaangors are probably better overall. As explained previously, Pinks can really gum up the works with that split rule. Maybe something like 10 Pinks, 10 Pinks, 20  Tzaangors for battleline? The flexibility to just swap around the battlefield (particularly with the Changeling) is just nuts.

[Malakithe]

Yes that's true...I'll have to toy around with the list builder for now.

So in a Changehost what's the heavy hitters? Most people fill then with Horrors which don't do a whole lot other then cause headaches. Now a block of 20 Tzaangors will tear up everything...with only a single pair to swap I'm not seeing where the punch comes from

[Nico]

The LoC is within 27" of himself and can swap - this is old news. The FAQ deals with that point.

[Nico]

Quote

Gaunt Summoner and Familiars (120) - Glimpse the Future.

Not my favourite spell, as I figure that it may come to late or be another "2" and the cast value isn't that low either.

Some of the other Arcanite spells are far better.

[Malakithe]

Thoughts?

[Nico]

Quote

Why is it so hard to make a mixed list? What smallish battalions could work for a daemons + Tzaangor list? Or maybe toss in some StD?

I suspect it's easier to make a mixed list - don't try to use the big battalions. Just go for a few cheap ones to get that second artefact.

While its rules are complete garbage (it's possibly the worst Battalion I've seen - can only think that it's for narrative play), the Aether Eater Host is at least quite small and you can put the Blue Scribes into it.

 

 

[Nico]

I'm confused by the inclusion of the Burning Chariot. If you want pew pew, then a couple of units of Exalted Flamers may be better.

 

[Nico]

Quote

Hosts Duplicitous aside, I think Changehost is pretty much always a good call. You'll be running Blue/Brimstone Horrors as line blockers in any Tzeentch list already, along with the obligatory Lord of Change (basically a Thundertusk with that profile spell). I'd say the Pink Horrors are the only real tax, as I think Tzaangors are probably better overall. As explained previously, Pinks can really gum up the works with that split rule. Maybe something like 10 Pinks, 10 Pinks, 20  Tzaangors for battleline? The flexibility to just swap around the battlefield (particularly with the Changeling) is just nuts.

I still don't think Split is mandatory (from a purposive perspective) in matched play. This was discussed in the other thread http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/5998-lets-chat-disciples-of-tzeentch/?page=40.

If it is mandatory, then it would indeed make it necessary to take zero reinforcement points (another reason why it's probably not mandatory). One expedient for it not being mandatory would be not to bring any Blue Horror models.... 

The Changehost does look stronger than the Exalted Conflagration - the minimum 6 Exalted Flamers is just such a killer. The Warpflame host is appropriately costed at 30 points as it's junk (and forgettable junk as well - like Unforgettable Destruction for Chaos Allegiance).

[Changer]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Not my favourite spell, as I figure that it may come to late or be another "2" and the cast value isn't that low either.

Some of the other Arcanite spells are far better.

This is true. However, I found it useful in the game I had during the week as I managed to get an extra 1 in my first turn which in turn stopped my Tzaangor from bolting. 

The other thing too is that I didn't want to give the Summoner another spell that I'd rely on too heavily. He's ideal for casting a mystic shield every turn with first cast, and this way his second cast will either give me a reliable 4+ per model mortal wounds for units, d3 mortal wounds from arcane bolt, or an extra destiny die if I'm running low or don't have any 1s or 6s in my destiny dice pool.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

I'm confused by the inclusion of the Burning Chariot. If you want pew pew, then a couple of units of Exalted Flamers may be better.

 

Speed and reach mostly. Same ranged profile but super fast to get in range to get swapped or hit a target much further out. Plus the Changehost needs 8 units. 

[Nico]

It's the horrendous 160 cost of it- you could get a Daemon Prince with a spell for that cost.