Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Tokyo Nift]

All good points made here. Another thing is on at least 1/3rd of the battleplans it's essentially impossible to win a major victory on objectives. 

[daedalus81]

I think the spacing needs to be reviewed.  I don't see any way you can get 15 in range unless they deploy off center, but if they do that then you can go to the other corner.  And to get shots they need to be out of the woods by the max 3", which would make them really vulnerable to being charged.
 

 

[daedalus81]

Obviously like you said a second wyldwood is problematic, but again it really depends what other terrain is on the table.   DoT can easily push enough mortal wounds onto the Kurnoth to cripple them.  Clearly Kurnoth still need a point tweak so it's a little moot discussing the finer details and there are a large number of variables to account for.

[Nico]

Just a couple of points in passing - if the Kurnoth Hunters are setting up near a Wyldwood then the unit has to be within 3", which means the back of the base of the back model needs to be within 3" and the other two chapesses (my Sylvaneth are largely female) just need to be coherent, so that can help with being in range.

I think overall a DoT/Sylvaneth match up will depend quite strongly on the pew pew ratio in the Sylvaneth list (if they are relying on Durthu melee to do the heavy lifting, then they going to lose badly most of the time unless the DoT deploy terribly or don't have any chaff or possibly if the Sylvaneth play for a double turn and get it). If the Sylvaneth keep their distance, force the DoT to go first and then keep moving backwards and putting down Wyldwoods in the advance of the DoT, then they may do better (depending on the scoring of the Battleplan). By making DoT go first, this restricts their ability to zap with spells as they will need (a) the Sylvaneth to either stand in 18" range; (b) to summon casters into range; (c) to use the Windthief Charm (which can be used at ANY time including the enemy turn) to get into range on an Arcanite Hero or (d) to use the Balewind Vortex. The Sylvaneth can then prioritise either killing the squishy casters like the Gaunt Summoner; making the Tzaangors go pop; or wiping out entire units of Skyfires.  

[RoloMcFury]

I keep seeing people refer to Sylvanteth setting up their woods in the middle of the board. Do your tournaments not already have some terrain placed, limiting the placement of these woods? Every table I've played on had some type of cinder-blocker in the center of the board. As a result, the Sylvaneth have to commit their woods to one side of the board (somewhat). 

[daedalus81]

54 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

I keep seeing people refer to Sylvanteth setting up their woods in the middle of the board. Do your tournaments not already have some terrain placed, limiting the placement of these woods? Every table I've played on had some type of cinder-blocker in the center of the board. As a result, the Sylvaneth have to commit their woods to one side of the board (somewhat). 

Yea that was one of my items for consideration that can't really be quantified, because it relies on whomever is placing terrain randomly and we can't expect something to always in the middle.  Wyldwoods are quite large though and it isn't always easy to place them where you want.

[RoloMcFury]

Also on this topic, assuming we get first turn against Sylvaneth (hopefully single-drop), is there anything stopping us from summoning a couple units of demons to completely cover the Wildwood (with the generous 3" on each side) before they have a chance to deploy? Pardon my ignorance if I've missed some rule preventing this.

[Mirage8112]

18 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

I think the spacing needs to be reviewed.  I don't see any way you can get 15 in range unless they deploy off center, but if they do that then you can go to the other corner.  And to get shots they need to be out of the woods by the max 3", which would make them really vulnerable to being charged.

i've measured it and mocked it up. Twice. Those wyldwoods are big and if they are deployed in a triangle cluster they pretty much give bow hunters command of the table range-wise. 
 

17 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Obviously like you said a second wyldwood is problematic, but again it really depends what other terrain is on the table.   DoT can easily push enough mortal wounds onto the Kurnoth to cripple them.  

I'm primarily a Sylvaneth player. I've never had wildwood deployment be an issue, even with 2. Most of the time I can shuffle things around to get be where I want, even with pre-deployed terrain. Remember, the first wood goes down before anything happens, but the second goes down after deployment, At that point it's pretty obvious where everything is and the 15" from the acorn carrier gives a lot of flexibility. Seriously, don't think hiding from this list is a viable option unless the board is positively flooded with terrain. 

As for mortal wounds, can DoT reliably push 9+ mortal wounds in the first turn while simultaneously trying to keep the 2 LoC away from the forests? And if so, how? It's my guess you would have to position for that in deployment, and the only way you can do that is to be sure to get the first turn. If you're not totally totally sure you can get the first turn they you have to deploy everything you want to keep 33+ inches away from the woods or risk losing it if the trees go first.  

Say you do get the roll off and you do position aggressively to take the hunters out. They don't come on the board till the Sylvaneth players first movement phase. You're basically watching the empty woods for them to arrive and then when it's the sylvaneth players turn, he drops the acorn and brings them in on the clear other side of the board and you eat a turn of shooting anyway. 
 

18 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Clearly Kurnoth still need a point tweak so it's a little moot discussing the finer details and there are a large number of variables to account for.

I don't think that his specific case shows Hunters need a point tweak, they're pretty well in line with everything other thing in that 160pt tier. What I'm saying is that I don't think running a list with 2-3 LoC is smart move because this type of Sylvaneth list can pretty easily take one of those off the table before you really get rolling. 
 

6 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

I keep seeing people refer to Sylvanteth setting up their woods in the middle of the board. Do your tournaments not already have some terrain placed, limiting the placement of these woods? Every table I've played on had some type of cinder-blocker in the center of the board. As a result, the Sylvaneth have to commit their woods to one side of the board (somewhat). 

In the example I posted a while back one of the heroes have the acorn, which lets them place a second forest within 18" of the caster in them first hero phase. Between the two forests they can reach pretty much any spot on the board even if the middle isn't accessible. 

 

2 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

Also on this topic, assuming we get first turn against Sylvaneth (hopefully single-drop), is there anything stopping us from summoning a couple units of demons to completely cover the Wildwood (with the generous 3" on each side) before they have a chance to deploy? Pardon my ignorance if I've missed some rule preventing this.

You could, but again your basically just dropping units into an empty forest. It doesn't help the second forest which comes on in the Sylvaneth players hero phase. Not to mention that woods will cause D3 mortal wounds (on a 5+) if any spells are cast within 6". Plus, the TLA can just awaken the woods with his signature spell which will also cause D3 mortal wounds, and then you also have arcane bolt for another D3 (and a chance to set the wood of again on a 5+). So your opening those reenforcement points to a likely 3D3 mortal wounds possibly up to 4D3. 

Seriously tho, take it from a Sylvaneth player. Do not go into, OR fight in the woods (if you can help it). Granted this is only one type of list you'd expect to see in competitive play, but a well rounded list should be able to deal with this sort of thing. 

Truthfully, it's my thought that if you are insistent on bring a LoC, the best counter for this type of list is bringing the blue scribes, plonking them down on something blocking line of sight and summoning a LoC in the first hero phase on a 2+. That way you get a full phase with the LoC before risking a storm of incoming fire.

 

[RoloMcFury]

In your example above, you refer to more woods showing up on turn one- where are these coming from? I was under the assumption Sylvaneth armies put their entire army in the hidden conclaves, hoping to alpha strike. If there are any targets on the board on turn one, they're vulnerable against the Changeling-swap-caster-swap Lord of Change into a melee charge shenanigans, right? Would it not be possible to kill whatever is making this new forest before it has a chance to use that ability.

Again, sorry for my ignorance, I'm trying to get a grip on how to play against such an army with DoT.

Edit- I see you answered my question in your post already- an acorn. What usually carries this artifact? Is it feasible that a few mortal wound spells could take it out turn 1?

[Mirage8112]

18 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

Again, sorry for my ignorance, I'm trying to get a grip on how to play against such an army with DoT.

No need to be sorry. This is why we do this. Theres no way every gaming club has players from every army, or players who own every list. Theorycrafting is the best way to prepare for competitive events. 
 

 

20 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

I see you answered my question in your post already- an acorn. What usually carries this artifact? Is it feasible that a few mortal wound spells could take it out turn 1?

Usually a lesser Hero like a Branchwytch or Branchwraith (but not always). Considering Standard deployment puts you 24" (at the very least) from your enemies deployment zone I doubt magic is going to be a viable option. Tzaangor Skyfires? Maybe. They have the range and mobility to (possibly) snipe her out in the first shooting round (provided you get first turn). Cover and LoS might be an issue, since when I play I always try to ensure she's protected, but between their range (24") and mobility (16") if you get an open shot you could reasonably cause enough wounds to take her off the table. Especially if destiny dice were in play. 

If you managed to do that AND lock the forest up those hunters would be stuck in the enclaves for at least a turn.

Do remember however that the Treelord ancient can also bring woods onto the table in the hero phase on a 4+, so there is still potential they could arrive in the first turn. But 50/50 is not a guarantee at all and if the TLA is in the enclaves as well; he's screwed. 

[RoloMcFury]

15 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

No need to be sorry. This is why we do this. Theres no way every gaming club has players from every army, or players who own every list. Theorycrafting is the best way to prepare for competitive events. 
 

 

Usually a lesser Hero like a Branchwytch or Branchwraith (but not always). Considering Standard deployment puts you 24" (at the very least) from your enemies deployment zone I doubt magic is going to be a viable option. Tzaangor Skyfires? Maybe. They have the range and mobility to (possibly) snipe her out in the first shooting round (provided you get first turn). Cover and LoS might be an issue, since when I play I always try to ensure she's protected, but between their range (24") and mobility (16") if you get an open shot you could reasonably cause enough wounds to take her off the table. Especially if destiny dice were in play. 

If you managed to do that AND lock the forest up those hunters would be stuck in the enclaves for at least a turn.

Do remember however that the Treelord ancient can also bring woods onto the table in the hero phase on a 4+, so there is still potential they could arrive in the first turn. But 50/50 is not a guarantee at all and if the TLA is in the enclaves as well; he's screwed. 

Thanks for clarifying that! I should have explained that I intend to use the Duplicitous Host (Edit-Changehost) swap mechanic (combined with Changeling) to get unlimited reach on the board turn one, swapping him out for a dangerous caster (first LoC possibly) followed by another swap for the melee LoC. So, it sounds like I have a vague plan if nothing else. I have played against Sylvaneth, but our local guy doesn't seem to grasp the power of teleporting into/between the forests.

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

Thanks for clarifying that! I should have explained that I intend to use the Duplicitous Host (Edit-Changehost) swap mechanic (combined with Changeling) to get unlimited reach on the board turn one, swapping him out for a dangerous caster (first LoC possibly) followed by another swap for the melee LoC.

Well, the swap mechanic is only within 27" So your Changeling will need to be within 27" of the LoC if you want to swap spots with him. That's going to be tough to pull off, since the enemies deployment zone is exactly 24" from your deployment zone. You'd basically get 3" to play with. That doesn't give you a lot of room, especially if he's hugging the front line. 

There might be some wiggle room in the rules, in that it says the changeling can deploy in your "opponents territory" which technically is his whole side of the board. Although it does say "exactly as if it were part of his army" and his army can't deploy more than 12" from the back edge of the board. There might be wiggle room there, but probably not. My guess is that RAI he's supposed to be in the deployment zone and not wandering around the center of the board.

Also it says the changing can be deployed at the "start of the battle". It looks like he's just deployed as usual. So you would want to deploy him last after all your opponents has placed all his heroes. However, if your going for a first turn "all on the table in one drop" you'll have a tough time not deploying him within 3" of a hero since the Sylvaneth player will be dropping his entire army after the changeling is already down. That smacks of trouble. Not just from a Sylvaneth player. What if your opponent anticipates your swap and deploys a bunch of protectors, wildwood rangers or some other monster killer around your changeling? (Especially vs Wanderers since their spellsinger get one free auto dispel per game. That flying bird would teleport in, get his one spell shut down without needing to roll and then gets chopped to pieces.)

@Nico thoughts on these two points? 

Your strategy also depending on your getting the first turn and deploying EVERYTHING you'll be playing with in the first drop. What your plan if he takes a meta battalion and you lose the roll off? 

p.s. I don't think it's a bad plan, I'm just pointing out some situations and logistics that may need a bit of refinement. 
 

[daedalus81]

Hmm.  Would a changeling be able to block out a Wyldwood?  He's still an enemy model and they couldn't come within 9" of him for the purpose of the teleport.

[Mirage8112]

Hmm.  Would a changeling be able to block out a Wyldwood?  He's still an enemy model and they couldn't come within 9" of him for the purpose of the teleport.

I don't think so. Warscroll says the enemy treats the changeling as if it were one of it's own models. If it were "unmasked" then yes. Otherwise no.


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[daedalus81]

Dangit.  Just reread it - you have to be in 'opponent's territory', too.  Bleh.

[RoloMcFury]

So while we're on this topic, how exactly do we think the Changeling is supposed to be deployed? The exact text reads "At the start of the battle, you can set up the Changeling in your opponent's territory as though it were part of their army." By my reading, this would occur after deployment, or there would be no need for the "At the start of the battle..." precursor. 

[Nico]

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There might be some wiggle room in the rules, in that it says the changeling can deploy in your "opponents territory" which technically is his whole side of the board. Although it does say "exactly as if it were part of his army" and his army can't deploy more than 12" from the back edge of the board. There might be wiggle room there, but probably not. My guess is that RAI he's supposed to be in the deployment zone and not wandering around the center of the board.

I wouldn't classify that as wiggle room. Enemy Territory is a longstanding concept from the core rules (there are even shiny coloured diagrams there). Accordingly, you can deploy in the enemy half.  It's not the only Warscroll  rule which refers to Territory - the Manticore refers to friendly territory - your own half.

I'm not sure the "exactly" you quoted is in the (current) warscoll. I've reread it again and don't read it this way. I agree that there's some doubt, but this seems to be in the deploy in the enemy half of the table unless and until such time as the army is nerfed camp (perhaps 80-20), rather than the controversial 60-40 issues (like Destiny Dice working on Mortal Wounds).

Unfortunately some people who play tiny low model count armies that look great on the table and are used to getting easy wins are liable to get melted by the Changehost and will moan and cry for the Nerfhammer without considering the various counters (like killing the LoC or deploying Gryph Hounds or using strong unbinding wizards to defend your deployment zone).

Often you will often want to be in the deployment zone for trolling reasons, but you don't have to be. There's a logical reason for this in that some Battleplans may have very specialised deployment areas, whereas enemy territory is usually pretty clear cut.

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 this topic, how exactly do we think the Changeling is supposed to be deployed? The exact text reads "At the start of the battle, you can set up the Changeling in your opponent's territory as though it were part of their army." By my reading, this would occur after deployment, or there would be no need for the "At the start of the battle..." precursor. 

I believe you're thinking of "Pre-Battle Abilities"- see the Core Rules, which usually say "after set-up is complete".

I doubt that The Changeling falls into this category. He's just a regular drop. This means that you have an active reason to avoid deploying it in the enemy territory if you're dropping the battalion as a single drop (since otherwise they can deploy an enemy hero and a ring of chaff next to the Changeling).

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Also it says the changing can be deployed at the "start of the battle". It looks like he's just deployed as usual. So you would want to deploy him last after all your opponents has placed all his heroes. However, if your going for a first turn "all on the table in one drop" you'll have a tough time not deploying him within 3" of a hero since the Sylvaneth player will be dropping his entire army after the changeling is already down. That smacks of trouble. Not just from a Sylvaneth player. What if your opponent anticipates your swap and deploys a bunch of protectors, wildwood rangers or some other monster killer around your changeling? (Especially vs Wanderers since their spellsinger get one free auto dispel per game. That flying bird would teleport in, get his one spell shut down without needing to roll and then gets chopped to pieces.)

Sorry - I'm jumping around the posts. I now see that you've already said this. I agree on this point and you've expressed the tactical point well.

This might be why the rule allows you to deploy in the territory and not the deployment zone (as the latter would allow you to soft counter the Changeling trivially with 20 Grots.

 

 

[Nico]

Deploying Battalions

While we're on the subject, what may be the biggest open secret in AoS is the second rule for deploying Battalions, which seem to have been read by less than 10% of players. This rule hides in Every Single Battletome on a page entitled "Warscroll Battalions" in the central column.

Not only does this allow you to deploy a Battalion as a single drop (which is well-known), but it also allows you to deploy "some of the units" from a Battalion and set up the rest "individually" later on. For example, you could deploy a 9 unit battalion as either a single drop or alternatively you could deploy (say) 5 units from the battalion as a single drop; and then deploy 1 more unit as the second drop; another 1 unit as the third drop...; and the 9th unit as the 5th drop.

What I should add is that you cannot do the reverse, drop 1, 1, 1, 1, 5 units as five drops.

I continue to be staggered when playing armies (especially Sylvaneth players) that can be single drop armies by people who can see that I obviously have (say) 10 drops (e.g. I'm playing Death); and they deploy their whole army in one drop (i.e. give me tonnes of information which I can then use to deploy better).

[DarkBlack]

@Nico I disagree entirely. Page 2 of the core rules (first paragraph, under "THE BATTLE BEGINS") states that armies must be set up before battle begins. Set-up includes deployment. That puts the Changeling after deployment. So not "just a regular drop". It's not a pre-battle ability either, "at the start of the battle" is after "pre-battle". The wording could be clearer (GW really could do better), but I put this at the beginning of the first hero phase (seeing as there is no first turn roll off). So the Changeling drops after everything that deploys on the table.

An aside: Not sure, but I think it might exclude the Changeling from being nominated as the general.

Regarding where: The Changeling deploys in your opponent's territory AND "as though it was part of their army". That means you can only put it where your opponent could put models, which is (usually) 12" from your territory.

Another aside: having to be in enemy territory means you can't use your opponent's off board deployment, even if available to his whole army.

[DarkBlack]

On the hero sniping topic: you can put the Changeling on the edge of their deployment zone where it/whatever it swaps with can see the target. Then do the thing.

If your list has some reserve; You could also put  the Changeling in your opponent's backfield and summon/start a summoning chain (using destiny dice and herald arcane tome(s)) whatever you need to get the job done. It's how I deal with artillery.

[Nico]

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Regarding where: The Changeling deploys in your opponent's territory AND "as though it was part of their army". That means you can only put it where your opponent could put models, which is (usually) 12" from your territory.

I see what you're saying, but I don't read this in a literal way. I think you're putting too much emphasis on "as though" it was part of their army, which sounds to me like a broad brush statement rather than a geographical limitation. Taking your view, it's a flat contradiction between Territory and Deployment Zone (to make up a term), i.e. needs to be FAQed one way or another - I don't see why one would trump the other automatically (and you could easily suggest that the first mentioned restriction is the more important one or the one which is intended to talk about geography). 

Do you really think that it would be subject to things like the Escalation deployment zones for different types of troops (Battleline etc.). Indeed as you say, "the wording could be clearer", but why not just say in their Deployment zone or some other term for where they can deploy.

It's going to have to be FAQed sadly and this is really bad news as the Nerfhammerers will try to hit it hard, as they will see this as the strongest part of the Tzeentch Daemons (within the Changehost Battalion).

Even if you sit just inside the enemy's 12" line, the enemy can probably still pin the Changeling model by bubble wrapping it with its own chaff models even though the "back" of the Changeling is open (especially if they are on 25mm bases). 

 

 

[Nico]

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Nico I disagree entirely. Page 2 of the core rules (first paragraph, under "THE BATTLE BEGINS") states that armies must be set up before battle begins. Set-up includes deployment. That puts the Changeling after deployment. So not "just a regular drop". It's not a pre-battle ability either, "at the start of the battle" is after "pre-battle". The wording could be clearer (GW really could do better), but I put this at the beginning of the first hero phase (seeing as there is no first turn roll off). So the Changeling drops after everything that deploys on the table.

I don't follow this at all. Perhaps I'm missing something.

The "Battle Begins" which introduces "Set-Up"; and "At the start of the battle, you can set up...." seem to be talking about the same window in time using synonyms (begin=start), i.e. set-up/deployment.

It's definitely not in the first hero phase - I don't follow that last logical jump at all.

 

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[DarkBlack]

12 minutes ago, Nico said:

Do you really think that it would be subject to things like the Escalation deployment zones for different types of troops (Battleline etc.). Indeed as you say, "the wording could be clearer", but why not just say in their Deployment zone or some other term for where they can deploy.

"Deployment zone" is not a term is AoS. They did use a term for where enemy models can deploy, by stating that. Why does GW need another term? "deployment zone is not defined and where players can deploy varies depending on scenario.

8 minutes ago, Nico said:

I don't follow this at all. Perhaps I'm missing something.

The "Battle Begins" which introduces "Set-Up"; and "At the start of the battle, you can set up...." seem to be talking about the same window in time using synonyms (begin=start), i.e. set-up/deployment.

It's definitely not in the first hero phase - I don't follow that last logical jump at all.

 

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In the first paragraph of "THE BATTLE BEGINS" is says: "you are now ready for the battle to begin [after choosing armies and placing scenery], but before it does you must set up your armies for the coming conflict". Emphasis mine.

Which I read to mean that the battle begins (i.e. the start of the battle) after set-up

[Malfallax]

Noob question guys but who can bother to explain me what this "#  drop" means and how it works?

I just started playing AoS and I chose DoT as my army. I plan on playing Daemons mainly with some Arcanite heroes.

Thoughts, feedback and assistance anyone?

[RoloMcFury]

1 hour ago, Malfallax said:

Noob question guys but who can bother to explain me what this "#  drop" means and how it works?

I just started playing AoS and I chose DoT as my army. I plan on playing Daemons mainly with some Arcanite heroes.

Thoughts, feedback and assistance anyone?

Drops refers to how many unit placements your army has. This is important, because whoever finishes setup first dictates who goes first. This can enable an alpha strike or set yourself up for a devastating double turn.

A battalion can be set up all at the same time, making getting first turn priority much more likely.