Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Nico]

It is a bit dismal having to build lists on the basis that your general is going to have to try to survive an onslaught turn one. It's a main reason I'm reluctant to go with the LoC as general. At best he is 4+ rerolling ones with the Trait in turn one - no cover possible. 

The other nice combo with the Sorceror on Manticore (sure you've thought of it @Mirage8112) is Infusion Arcanum, plus Soulburn as the Command Trait plus Paradoxical Shield. Gives you a tanky General which can do melee reasonably well with mortal wound output by casting IA turn one; and can then switch to fire off his spell later in the game. Command Abilities and Command Traits are not DoT's strongpoint for now (Arcane Sacrifice is perhaps an interesting exception).

[Anggul]

Kairic acolytes

Their entry says some of them can take 'double-handed' cursed glaives, but the example models have guys with a glaive and shield, and none of the glaives are actually held by two hands.

Can they use glaive & shield or not? What do you give them if not, just an empty hand?

[Anggul]

Hmm... it seems like the equipment description was written for the Silver Tower models, and when the new kit came out they just added the new stuff without going back and changing the equipment description to suit the new models.

[Soulsmith]

3 hours ago, Anggul said:

Kairic acolytes

Their entry says some of them can take 'double-handed' cursed glaives, but the example models have guys with a glaive and shield, and none of the glaives are actually held by two hands.

Can they use glaive & shield or not? What do you give them if not, just an empty hand?

This was discussed a couple time on the facebook AoS Fanpage. It seems that tehy can have both a glaive and a shield as the entry does not specify they take it instead of a shield. Therefore it falls into a similar category to a standard bearer or musician, they take it on top of current equipment.

[Malfallax]

@Soulsmith I don't think that is right as these acolytes would then be able to attack with both the glaive and the sword if modelled correctly as a model attacks with all the weapons available.

No exceptions are made for the specification 'double-handed'

[Changer]

The problem with the Acolyte description is that it's written the same was as the Tzaangors.  If Acolytes can carry two handed weapons and shields, then Tzaangor would be able to too?

I believe that the wording for the Acolytes is incorrect, and that it should have stated that three in ten could carry the glaive and a shield.  GW create rules based on the model kits, and there just aren't any empty left hands in the Acolyte kit to give three models per ten glaives on their own.

Tzaangor on the other hand have all of their special weapons modelled in two hands, showing that these shouldn't have shields.

[Mirage8112]

On 4/1/2017 at 3:46 AM, Nico said:

For the Ogroid, you would pass saves of 3 and 4 on the initial roll. You would have to reroll 5s and 6s. Then on the reroll a 3+ would be a save, which is pretty sweet.

Um. I don't see how you're getting that. The text says you add 2 to all rolls (it's not optional) and all successful saves must be re-rolled. So the ogroid would pass his save on an initial roll of 3+, but no matter what he rolls over 3+ he still has to reroll successes. That means 3's, 4's, 5's or 6's would save, but need to be rerolled. 

That means out of 10 wounds (no rend), the oigroid would first save 6-7 of them on a 3+, and then after rerolling those 6-7, he'd end up saving about 5 of them. So about 50%. Still better than his 30% (5+) natural save, but a fair bit less than the sorcerer (70%). 

Granted he can get cover, but you can't always count on that. 

[Nico]

This is the rerolls before modifiers point again. While somewhat absurd, only the "natural" successes have to be rerolled. Only then do you add the +2.

This is a Paradox/absurdity (the saves are both unsuccessful and successful) - hence the name.

They might FAQ this the other way. 

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

This is the rerolls before modifiers point again. While somewhat absurd, only the "natural" successes have to be rerolled. Only then do you add the +2.

This is a Paradox/absurdity (the saves are both unsuccessful and successful) - hence the name.

They might FAQ this the other way. 

Rerolls before modifiers is only applicable when you are able/supposed to reroll a specific die value; say 1's or 2's. Rerolls before modifiers affects rules like rerolling armor save's of 1 because the ability should still be able to be used even if some spells/abilities modify dice rolls. Note that with paradoxical shield, it says "All saves must be rerolled", not "natural saves". It doesn't matter when you add the 2+, because it's the successful save that triggers the reroll, not the value of the dice. 

So, let's say you roll 4 saves, a 1,3,4,6 on a Thurmaturge with paradoxical shield. The 1 fails. But the 3,4,6 pass. Because they are successful, they must be rerolled. 

You can't really add modifiers "after" a reroll in this case, because because the way the item is worded you'd get the same effect. On the on the same roll as above, the 1 would fail, and so would the 3 and 4. While the 6 is rerolled (because it's successful). Then if you added the +2 to the 3 and 4, it would make them pass, which they would then need to be rerolled as well (Remember, the text says reroll "All successful saves", and the only dice that can't be rerolled are dice that have been re-rolled once already, and in this case only the 6 has been re-rolled). 

If the items description was worded so that the bearer rerolled all 5's and 6's, (or something similar) rerolls before modifiers would be applicable. But in this case it's "reroll all successful saves", it doesn't matter how the dice come up; successes are successes. 
 

[Nico]

You're right that the literal wording of the rerolls before modifiers rule is challenging in this context - however, it's not possible to get around the rule in a satisfactory way. Maybe they did only intend it to apply to reroll 1s and the like, but some indicators are the opposite - e.g. they have said that the reroll hits of 6+ doesn't actually work on rolls of 5 + 1 for the same reason (only a Facebook answer, but so be it).

After we debated it last time, we decided to FAQ it the literal way at #Calling (for a change) - partly for certainty and partly to flag the issue for GW to address on their next FAQ. It does make Paradoxical Shield a bit better and Kurnoth Hunters a bit worse vs rend.

[Mirage8112]

35 minutes ago, Nico said:

You're right that the literal wording of the rerolls before modifiers rule is challenging in this context - however, it's not possible to get around the rule in a satisfactory way. Maybe they did only intend it to apply to reroll 1s and the like, but some indicators are the opposite - e.g. they have said that the reroll hits of 6+ doesn't actually work on rolls of 5 + 1 for the same reason (only a Facebook answer, but so be it)... It does make Paradoxical Shield a bit better and Kurnoth Hunters a bit worse vs rend.

I don't think it's challenging exactly, nor is it a matter of "getting around the rule". It just means you have to look closely at how the rules interact. As I said above, when the re-roll applies to specific die roll (2's, 4's 6's ect) you ignore modifiers for the purpose of determining which dice get rerolled. Re-rolling hits of 6 wouldn't work on rolls of 5+1, because again, it's a re-roll based on a specific dice role; 6's. However, when the dice rolls are based of "successes/fails" the effect is the same no matter when you apply the modifier. For example, on Hunters rend wouldn't effect their reroll at all. Hunters can re-roll all failed saves, so even 4+ rerollable vs -1 rend would still reroll 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's; its the failed save that triggers the re-roll, not the number showing on the die. 

The way I see it, when the text says "reroll all failed/sucessfull hits/wounds/saves/battleshock tests" there is no statute of limitations of when that applies in the relevant phase. Apply the modifier before/after; it makes no difference. A success is a success and a fail is a fail. And if it's the success/fail that triggers a reroll it doesn't matter what the dice say or the modifiers do. 
 

35 minutes ago, Nico said:

After we debated it last time, we decided to FAQ it the literal way at #Calling (for a change) - partly for certainty and partly to flag the issue for GW to address on their next FAQ.

You're welcome to house rule or FAQ whatever you like for your events as you see fit. I always enjoy reading what conclusions you've come to on these conundrums. However, I still think you're mistaken on this particular point. I say that not only based on the way the rules interact as written, but doing it the other way adds a bunch unnecessary and cumbersome "modifier tracking".

I don't say this often*, but it's clearly not intended to work the way you're describing. 

*(because I tend to put much more emphasis on rules as written, but I feel both RAW and RAI support me here)

[Grimnaud]

58 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I don't think it's challenging exactly, nor is it a matter of "getting around the rule". It just means you have to look closely at how the rules interact. As I said above, when the re-roll applies to specific die roll (2's, 4's 6's ect) you ignore modifiers for the purpose of determining which dice get rerolled. Re-rolling hits of 6 wouldn't work on rolls of 5+1, because again, it's a re-roll based on a specific dice role; 6's. However, when the dice rolls are based of "successes/fails" the effect is the same no matter when you apply the modifier. For example, on Hunters rend wouldn't effect their reroll at all. Hunters can re-roll all failed saves, so even 4+ rerollable vs -1 rend would still reroll 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's; its the failed save that triggers the re-roll, not the number showing on the die. 

The way I see it, when the text says "reroll all failed/sucessfull hits/wounds/saves/battleshock tests" there is no statute of limitations of when that applies in the relevant phase. Apply the modifier before/after; it makes no difference. A success is a success and a fail is a fail. And if it's the success/fail that triggers a reroll it doesn't matter what the dice say or the modifiers do. 
 

You're welcome to house rule or FAQ whatever you like for your events as you see fit. I always enjoy reading what conclusions you've come to on these conundrums. However, I still think you're mistaken on this particular point. I say that not only based on the way the rules interact as written, but doing it the other way adds a bunch unnecessary and cumbersome "modifier tracking".

I don't say this often*, but it's clearly not intended to work the way you're describing. 

*(because I tend to put much more emphasis on rules as written, but I feel both RAW and RAI support me here)

I would have to disagree. The rules don't say that you disregard modifiers only when dealing with specific rerolls of 1's and so on. They simply state that rerolls happen before modifiers are applied. Both with regards to saves versus rend and the paradoxical shield, that sequence of rerolls before modifiers makes a difference. I don't see any reason why a reroll that allows you to reroll failed or successful saves should change that sequence. Saves can be both successful and unsuccessful against the base save as an intermediate step before any modifiers are applied. If not it would be a lot simpler not to include the rerolls-before-modifiers rule at all, as it is incredibly unintuitive, and simply state that rerolls apply only to certain unmodified dice rolls, such as 1's and so on. 

[Nico]

Quote

I don't say this often*, but it's clearly not intended to work the way you're describing. 

Well we're on the same page - the literal rule does lead to an oddity in some cases (rerolls of fails or successes). Whether zither purpose was clear enough to justify rewriting the rule was 50-50 for me. Neither solution is ideal:

Rerolls before modifiers has the virtue of being simple and memorable. However it does lead to fiddly cases.

I've previously argued the opposite (i.e. the same as you). The Paradoxical Shield prompted me to rethink it (as it seems like they may want it to be a paradox). I look forward to the next official FAQ.

 

[Mirage8112]

52 minutes ago, Nico said:

Well we're on the same page - the literal rule does lead to an oddity in some cases (rerolls of fails or successes). Whether zither purpose was clear enough to justify rewriting the rule was 50-50 for me. Neither solution is ideal:

Rerolls before modifiers has the virtue of being simple and memorable. However it does lead to fiddly cases.

I've previously argued the opposite (i.e. the same as you). The Paradoxical Shield prompted me to rethink it (as it seems like they may want it to be a paradox). I look forward to the next official FAQ.

 

Yeah, I wrote a fairly long post reiterating my position, but then scrapped it. It really could work both ways. I suppose this will have to come down to an FAQ.

[Mirage8112]

It's ironic actually, as paradoxical shield is actually better on a model with lower natural armor save. If rerolls happen before modifiers there less of a chance he'll need to reroll saves. 

[Grimnaud]

10 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Yeah, I wrote a fairly long post reiterating my position, but then scrapped it. It really could work both ways. I suppose this will have to come down to an FAQ.

I wish I did that more often. There are half a dozen rules I wish GW would FAQ and clarify, but arguing over the interpretations are more likely to make me grouchy than resolve anything.

[Mirage8112]

1 minute ago, Grimnaud said:

I wish I did that more often. There are half a dozen rules I wish GW would FAQ and clarify, but arguing over the interpretations are more likely to make me grouchy than resolve anything.

I actually enjoy it since it allows me to participate in the game even if its only in an abstract way. @Nico and I have had some doozies in our long discussion threads. 

But never let it be said that arguing on the internet never changes anyones mind. I can and have certainly been swayed by these long thread discussions. 

[Nico]

I'd echo the above post. It's easier to find time to think about the game and chat about it than to find time for a full game for one thing. I change my mind every so often and it's helpful to hear other points of view and see nuances that others have spotted.

[ssharkus]

Whats up guys. I`m  trying to construct something around 2500 points to fight Flesh Eater Courts.  So far the biggest problem against these guys was their infiltrating crypt horrors, but i hope ill solve it with few packs of brimstone horrors covering those back edge of the table.

So my usual strategy is to try nuke his heroes to prevent unit reinforcements and try to tar pit his heavy hitters in horrors.  

What im starting to think of is picking Changeling and something punchy for summons, like Bloodthirstier and like 20 Bloodletters. 

So like Changeling summoning LoC, he summons khorne, and they all charge at something like Ghoul King on terrorgheist, thats usually in the back.  What do you think about this? Maybe some better ideas for that summon trick? i picked Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage because he can use his command ability and reroll charge, so that means ill not stumble if the 9" charge fails.

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
The Changeling (140)
- General
Kairos Fateweaver (340)
- General
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)
- General
- Staff of Change 
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (280)
- General

Battleline

Battalions
Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch (120)

Total: 2480/2000
 

[DarkBlack]

17 minutes ago, ssharkus said:

What im starting to think of is picking Changeling and something punchy for summons, like Bloodthirstier and like 20 Bloodletters. 
 

So like Changeling summoning LoC, he summons khorne, and they all charge at something like Ghoul King on terrorgheist, thats usually in the back.  What do you think about this? Maybe some better ideas for that summon trick? i picked Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage because he can use his command ability and reroll charge, so that means ill not stumble if the 9" charge fails.
 

How are summoning something in your list (you put aside points, not units, for summoning)? If not how can something you summon be you general? Also, why not use destiny dice for the charge.

You will need some kind of trick to get the thirster on reliably, I usually summon a herald (on 5) and use his tome, or use the scribes/LoC, 18" is a fair distance.

Alternatively, why use cc? If summoning you get an extra 18" (from summoning) on you range, so you can get flamers shooting at something up to 37" (using the width of your base) from your casters.

[ssharkus]

Well damn. I forgot i can only use the general's command ability. 

I put 480 points aside for khorne summons. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

How are summoning something in your list (you put aside points, not units, for summoning)? If not how can something you summon be you general? Also, why not use destiny dice for the charge.

Agree with the first point - your general has to be part of the army, so no command ability. However, on the second point, you cannot use Destiny Dice on a Khorne unit, so that's not an option.

I'm surprised that the Ghoul Patrol is causing such a problem (Crypt Ghouls rather than Horrors infiltrating right)?

The basic strategy of take out the courtiers and then focus fire each unit until it's completely wiped out is the way to go. This means that you want concentrated punch rather than melee grind (so Tzaangors aren't ideal). Not easy for DoT. An Ogroid with Infusion Arcanum and Destiny Dice can do a lot of damage quickly as can a Lord of Change with Phantasmal weapons.

Quote

Alternatively, why use cc? If summoning you get an extra 18" (from summoning) on you range, so you can get flamers shooting at something up to 37" (using the width of your base) from your casters.

The second you summon Flamers is the second you lose the game. They are horrifically expensive for what you get.

Exalted Flamers - summon 3 at a time, might work. It's still brutally expensive, but the extra D3 mortal wounds is per model not per unit (unlike Regular Flamers), you can spread the mortal wounds out over a lot of units by firing multiple shots from each Flamer at different units. Alternatively, if they focus fire, then you could do 3 D3 mortal wounds to a target if you get lucky.

[ssharkus]

No. He just summons horrors with Kings on Terrorgheist command ability Summon Royal guard. 3 horrors on any edge of the table each turn. 
He also keeps his varghulfs and heroes in the back, avoiding my spell range, letting the horrors do the work. So i got myself a Changeling to shake things up.

I play a lot against Flesh eaters) 

57 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm surprised that the Ghoul Patrol is causing such a problem (Crypt Ghouls rather than Horrors infiltrating right)?

The basic strategy of take out the courtiers and then focus fire each unit until it's completely wiped out is the way to go. This means that you want concentrated punch rather than melee grind (so Tzaangors aren't ideal). Not easy for DoT. An Ogroid with Infusion Arcanum and Destiny Dice can do a lot of damage quickly as can a Lord of Change with Phantasmal weapons.

 

 

[Grimnaud]

1 hour ago, ssharkus said:

Whats up guys. I`m  trying to construct something around 2500 points to fight Flesh Eater Courts.  So far the biggest problem against these guys was their infiltrating crypt horrors, but i hope ill solve it with few packs of brimstone horrors covering those back edge of the table.

So my usual strategy is to try nuke his heroes to prevent unit reinforcements and try to tar pit his heavy hitters in horrors.  

What im starting to think of is picking Changeling and something punchy for summons, like Bloodthirstier and like 20 Bloodletters. 

So like Changeling summoning LoC, he summons khorne, and they all charge at something like Ghoul King on terrorgheist, thats usually in the back.  What do you think about this? Maybe some better ideas for that summon trick? i picked Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage because he can use his command ability and reroll charge, so that means ill not stumble if the 9" charge fails.

 

FEC has been my main army the past years, so lets see what I can do to betray my former faction  If you can get rid of the Courtiers, then most of your job is done. FEC really needs buffs to do any serious damage in CC. A LoC with magical supremacy can shut down most of his magic, while the 18" range on the direct damage spells can snipe out his Courtiers. If he's relying on the command ability from his GKoTG then the Changeling is your best friend. Get them into CC and burn destiny dice on the maw attack, especially any sixes you have on the wound rolls. The three Horrors that the GKoTG can summon can do a lot of damage, but outside the range of a Courtier they also die a lot more easily. You can pretty easily block their entry-points pretty easily with brimstones. 10 brimstones lined out to a 10" line and placed along a table edge will block 28" of the edge. For 40 points  

What does he usually deploy on the table? You mentioned a GKoTG and a Vargulf, but what else? Large units of ghouls and horrors, or several small ones?

I personally wouldn't go for summoning anything punchy. With the Undying Minions/Ruler of the night save a decent sized unit of FEC are resilient enough to withstand most things for a round or two. If they lose their heroes though, then they've really lost their fangs. Magic, shooting, and chaff are your friends here. Focus all the damage on the heroes, while chaffing up the Ghouls and Crypt Horrors with multiple units of our much cheaper Blue and Brimstone Horrors. If he's keeping back, then so much the better, since you can get on the objectives ahead of him, and put as many horrors as you can between them and him.

[ssharkus]

18 minutes ago, Grimnaud said:

If he's relying on the command ability from his GKoTG then the Changeling is your best friend. Get them into CC and burn destiny dice on the maw attack, especially any sixes you have on the wound rolls. 

 

What does he usually deploy on the table? You mentioned a GKoTG and a Vargulf, but what else? Large units of ghouls and horrors, or several small ones?

Thx for the advice.

But does the Changeling also receive Gaping Maw ability bonus if he attacks with it? I thought you only get the basic weapon output.

My god this poor Changeling is just one huge controversy)

He has King on Terrorgheist, two varghulfs, crypt flayer courtier and the rest is horrors and horror hero.  

My point was to block my rear with brimstones, summon some stuff in his deployment zone, halve his big horror pack`s movement and draw his attention away from the objectives for some time)