Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Denneysman]

Ah the memories. Reminds me of the weather or not special characters should be allowed. believe it or not there was a time when they weren't even legal on lists and the dreaded forgeworld debates of old. Lol

[Mirage8112]

Ah the memories. Reminds me of the weather or not special characters should be allowed. believe it or not there was a time when they weren't even legal on lists and the dreaded forgeworld debates of old. Lol

Lord. I remember that. Taking a named character in a list meant some opponents wouldn't play you. Named characters were banned from nearly every tournament I played in. Even now, when I field a named char I get this little twinge of guilt, like I'm doing something underhanded.....


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[Denneysman]

I think it was Commander Farsight in the first Tau book to be the first allowed on list without permission. Then the flood gates opened.

[AverageBoss]

Thinking about trying something like this next.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Tzaangor Shaman (120)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner (100)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 4x Pair of Savage Blades
- 8x Savage Greatblade
- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

Total: 2000/2000
 

[Drillz]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 4:46 AM, Drillz said:

daemon cohort of Tzeentch is really strong but is it better than the changehost?

so back to my original question

[Malfallax]

It is different than the Changehost... Definitely cheaper.

And with a Kairos' in there you get a guaranteed 28 wound LoC

[Malfallax]

As far as the the Daemon Prince of Tzeench is concerned, if you intend to give him the +1 Attack and make him your general (-1 rend and -1 to be hit) for a 1000 point army then what is the best weapon option?

Axe or Sword?

[Nico]

It's a tough one - the answer is probably the Sword, since -2 rend is "enough" (it beats all the ignore -1 rend abilities, there's only one ability I can think of which ignores -2 rend, but not -3 rend; and significantly, -3 rend is wasted against anything with a 5+ save or worse), while hitting on 3+ makes a big difference (especially as (a) you can use Destiny Dice of 3s on them (which don't have a lot of other uses) and (b) they make the ubiquitous -1 to hit debuffs less awful (since -1 to hit vs 3+ is only a 25% damage reduction, rather than a brutal 33.3% reduction for a 4+ to hit).

Quick maths suggests that the Sword is 11% more damage to a 4+ save (which I normally use as a benchmark).

The difficulty comes from the fact that sometimes -3 rend is invaluable - e.g. vs Nagash (who laughs at mortal wounds) or against Treelord Ancients or Fulminators or Stardrakes (rerollable saves) - making these things die reliably is a big deal.  

[Nico]

I'm considering the Lord on Daemonic Mount as a superior choice. While he cannot get the -3 rend, he can still take Phantasmal Weapons (including on the Horse - for 4 attacks at 3+, 3+, -2, 2 damage - a great profile) and is insanely tanky, with a 4+ rerollable (who can benefit from cover) and a 5+ ward save vs mortal wounds; he also comes with a command ability; and is cheaper by 20 points.

The downside is that it doesn't have a spell, but none of the Daemon Lore spells are buffs that affect the caster only, so this is less of an issue.

[Malfallax]

Besides the weapon the Prince has the claw profile which is also savage with a -1 rend.

And I tend to get Uncontrollable Mutation on him to soften whatever I am charging... 

Notable was that one Time when I did 6 MWon a unit of ? revenants 

[FunkyPunk]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

I'm considering the Lord on Daemonic Mount as a superior choice. While he cannot get the -3 rend, he can still take Phantasmal Weapons (including on the Horse - for 4 attacks at 3+, 3+, -2, 2 damage - a great profile) and is insanely tanky, with a 4+ rerollable (who can benefit from cover) and a 5+ ward save vs mortal wounds; he also comes with a command ability; and is cheaper by 20 points.

The downside is that it doesn't have a spell, but none of the Daemon Lore spells are buffs that affect the caster only, so this is less of an issue.

Agreed - Ive been eyeing up the lord a lot, I think I'm going to play around with it a lot after SCGT. 10 chaos knights to go with him are expensive but could be a good objective grabber, and not awful on the charge with the command ability.

[Nico]

Quote

Agreed - Ive been eyeing up the lord a lot, I think I'm going to play around with it a lot after SCGT. 10 chaos knights to go with him are expensive but could be a good objective grabber, and not awful on the charge with the command ability.

I'm thinking as part of the Fatesworn Warband, which also puts the horse attacks from the Lord on DM up to -2 rend when combined with Phantasmal Weapons. It also let's the Lord on DM cast Arcane Bolt (for what it's worth). That way the Knights become decent (rend with Ensorcelled weapons and rend on the horses - and we all know that the mounts do more damage anyway*). Thinking 9 Knights. With a 5+ vs Mortals and a 6+ outright Ward they might even survive 30 seconds of the game against 18 Skyfires and other pew pew boredom.

*With the glorious exception of Dorghar the Everderping.

[Arkiham]

Hmm might build towards this for my first tzeentch army.

[LLuck]

Hey guys, with the following lisr I would have 120 points for a reinforcement pool:

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (140)
- Mount: Steed
- Runestaff 
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Daemon Prince Of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Artefact: Phantasmal Weapons 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (200)
- Chaos Glaives
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battalions
Godsworn Champions of Ruin (60)

Total: 880/1000
 

What are the typical units/heroes I would need? Probably something to stand on objectives, something to spam wounds against high model count armys, maybe something with high rend? Any help with the models needed for a good reinforcement pool is highly appreciated.

 

[Arkiham]

14 minutes ago, LLuck said:

Hey guys, with the following lisr I would have 120 points for a reinforcement pool:

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (140)
- Mount: Steed
- Runestaff 
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Daemon Prince Of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form - Tzeentch Daemon Hero
- Artefact: Phantasmal Weapons 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (200)
- Chaos Glaives
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battalions
Godsworn Champions of Ruin (60)

Total: 880/1000
 

What are the typical units/heroes I would need? Probably something to stand on objectives, something to spam wounds against high model count armys, maybe something with high rend? Any help with the models needed for a good reinforcement pool is highly appreciated.

 

blue horros and brimstone horrors pretty much. 

 

high armour combat with mortal wounds from spells 

 objective =  horrors 

[Nico]

With 120 points you can get a Herald, which can potentially dump 12 mortal wounds if you spank all your destiny dice with Pink Fire and Bolt of Tzeentch.

Or you can summon a Balewind or 10 Plaguebearers.

[Drillz]

So after reading more in the GH and the DoT book I don't believe we can take Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch. The battalion warscroll is a daemon of chaos warscroll so it would cause us to lose our DoT allegiance 

[Nico]

Read point 4 on page 95 of the DoT Battletome. You can take the Daemon Cohort (and the Fatesworn Warband) and keep Tzeentch Allegiance.

[Mirage8112]

As long as all the units in the battalion have a specific keyword, the battalion is considered to have that keyword as well. The reverse is true as well, if the battalion has a keyword, all the units in it are considered to have that keyword as well (for the purpose of determining allegiances)


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[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

As long as all the units in the battalion have a specific keyword, the battalion is considered to have that keyword as well. The reverse is true as well, if the battalion has a keyword, all the units in it are considered to have that keyword as well (for the purpose of determining allegiances)


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This should be a pinned post somewhere 

[Mirage8112]

Not sure if this has been covered. But thought I'd ask:

We've all been eyeing the Sorcerer Lord on a Manticore with Paradoxical Shield. Tanks with 12 wounds and a 4+ save. With paradoxical shield, that jumps to a 2+. Not a strong save vs mortal wounds, but if he casts Treacherous bond on a unit of Chaos Warriors with chaos rune shields, wouldn't they then get to take their 5+ save against any mortal wounds that get through? (since their shields give them a 5++ vs mortal wounds). 

[Nico]

Yes - definitely - just like a Tomb Herakd gets a 6++ when he takes mortal wounds (in place of Settra taking a wound or mortal wound).

[Nico]

Of course that begs the question - who is going to cast Wind of Chaos? Kairos/Changeling?

Otherwise the Sorceror on Manticore is just going to sit there as an expensive tank.

The Ogroid with Paradoxical Shiekd and casting Treacherous Bond can still do impact hits, heal and bash noggin and tank well for only 160 points. The Manticore swings pillows unless you cast Infusion Arcanum (which you cannot also do).

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Of course that begs the question - who is going to cast Wind of Chaos? Kairos/Changeling?

Otherwise the Sorceror on Manticore is just going to sit there as an expensive tank.

We've sort of skirted around this issue a couple of times, but I think this illustrates the differences in how we (you and I) build lists. 

My thought was if I'm going to build a unit as a tank, I want him to be the tankiest tank I can build, because that's the role I intend to use him in. The Thurmaturge has respectable 8 wounds and natural 5+ save. With paradoxical shield, that clocks in at a 3+. It's not bad, but 3+ rerolling successes will likely mean he'll fail half his saves. Which means if 10 wounds are coming at him, he's likely to take out 2-3 chaos warriors with treacherous bond. 2-3 chaos warriors are roughly 36-54 pts worth of support units that should figure into his price. So while a respectable 160 pts, the real cost of this build is more like 210-260 spending on how much a target of a fire magnet he is. If the battleplan is 3 places of power, he's likely to draw a lot of fire. 

However, the Sorcerer Lord is 12 wounds, has a natural 4+ save (paradoxical shield increases that to 2+, and since he can reroll 1's it amounts to a true 2+ save) If he's rolling to save 10 wounds, he'll only take out 1 chaos warrior every other turn. At 240 pts, considering the cost of support units he's likely to lose, that puts his real cost somewhere around 255. 

So the posts cost is relatively the same when you factor in the collateral damage.

So, I'm my view it really depends what you want to use him for. I tend to build units for a primary role and often keep them in mind for a secondary role. Sometimes it can be hard to require that a unit perform as anvil/hammer/tarpit/chaff/glasscannon all at the same time, because often something that does a little bit of everything doesn't do anything particularly well. With 12 wounds, a better save, a buffing ability and better movement (+ the ability to fly). It's more likely the sorcerer lord will be able to be where he is useful and very likely he will last longer (which is important given our lack of easy access to healing spells).

The fact that he sits there taking damage while not dishing out a tremendous amount of his own doesn't bother me. After all, I do have an entire other selection of units that are worth picking based on their damage dealing abilities. This allows the Sorcerer and the Chaos warriors to basically sit on objectives while losing very little to attrition while the rest of army does the heavy lifting.

Furthermore at some point, the enemy will probably realize that it's useless to pour firepower into the Sorcerer lord since his initial save will soak a stupid amount of damage. At that point, you can switch your spell casting priorities, since the chaos sorcerer lords spell is a capable damage dealer. I'm not so sure the Ogriod will fare quite as well in that regard, since his natural save of 5+ means he'll lose his bodyguards at a much faster rate. With only 8 wounds I'd be slightly concerned that the enemy would be able to pull him and his bodyguards down with shear weight of fire. (Especially considering the prevalence of pew-pew.)

Nobody want to wear a bullet proof vest that works "fairly well". If your going to build a unit as a tank you really want it to be as bulletproof as you can make it. A 160 pts Thurmaturge might look like a bargain, but for an extra 80 pts (which we've seen isn't really extra) you get something that can really stand in the fire and not get burned, and then when it becomes obvious that he can't be killed and the heat dials down, he can really put out some fire of his own. 
 

 

 

[Nico]

I can see the logic of that. He can go tank a Stonelord pretty happily.

I would almost see it as better if the opponent does try to put damage into the Target. The 2+ rerollable Sorceror is so obviously unkillable, that people might not make the mistake of wasting shots/time. I would also just dump the mortal wounds into Marauders (if they have a 6++ from Fatesworn then even better). When I did this with Kairos He was very tanky (and I didn't feel the need to put Mystic Shield and Shield of Fate on). What's great about that is that he has the extra spell and so can go right into the middle and project an extra spell deep into the enemy lines.

The way the Shield works - it's actually more valuable on a mediocre save than a great save. For the Ogroid, you would pass saves of 3 and 4 on the initial roll. You would have to reroll 5s and 6s. Then on the reroll a 3+ would be a save, which is pretty sweet.

The Ogroid can also get a cover save for what that's worth. I think they are both good options. Given how little we can fit into 2,000 points, I find that cost efficient combos are valuable as well as optimal ones.