Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Tokyo Nift]

Roughly on topic, and to show I do love me some horrors, here's a shot of my daemons facing some Sylvaneth last night

 

 

[Mirage8112]

 

3 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

@Mirage. Vs Kunnin Rukk a thundertusk (if we're talking about the same list) will just kill your herald of Tzeentch? If your herald is too far away to be shot by the thundertusks it's gonna be hard to summon a LoC into boss-targeting range, especially when the boss is facing so much shooting and will likely be at the back. 

3 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Shooting armies will likely target your herald, as he's the only distinguishable target.

Max range on the Thundertusk shooting is 34" (assuming they roll a 6 for their free move). Considering the set-up range for the LoC is 18" from the herald, and the range of most spells is 18" that gives you a 38" threat range. (counting the LoC's base gives you another 6" or so, bumping that up to a 45" threat bubble.) with that much range there's no way the tusks will be able to target the herald in the very first shooting phase, so it's unlikely they'd even try. (why move up into arcane bolt range when you don't have to?). Likewise a 45" range puts the herald well out of range of anything in the game right now (including Kurnoth hunters at 35").  

Furthermore, if things get hairy or you can't quite reach the savage boss, you can always summon another herald. 18" puts the first herald on the board, then he summons the LoC another 18" away, add 6" for the base and another 18" for the LoC spell bumps that threat range up to 63". Nothing can hide from that. 

Also, if you read the account of the battle in that thread, the destruction player pretty much just stayed in the back corner pew-pewing all game. The tusks were just there for their mortal-wound generating blizzard, probably to discourage units from getting into CC with his front lines. They never really left the back corner. 

[Nico]

You could use a GS with Windthief or Balewind Vortex to summon the LoC into range. Also the back of his base has to be within 18" of the caster which helps. Or you could summon one Herald - which can summon the LoC and then zap with Pink Fire and then do Arcane Bolt if it gets another 9 on the cast roll.

The Changeling can troll the movement of the Arrer Boyz - it works on the Kunning Rukk movement as well as the movement phase movement - 5+5 going to 3+3.

It's a very interesting combo vs Destruction filth.

MSU answers the Stonelord as it can only delete 1-2 irrelevant units per turn.

One concern is that the list is susceptible to unfavourable rule interpretations - e.g. Split being Mandatory or the newly created units being capped at derpy size not at increments of 10 (you get what you paid for). We've addressed those points in the FAQ for London's Calling 2017 (as you may know), but we may see other events ruling these points differently.

 

 

[Tokyo Nift]

The issue isn't really the max range of the summon but the blocking of summoning zones. The LoC has to arrive 18" away from the boss but 9" away from any other model, it's not hard to block these channels if you're expecting a summon. The thundertusks don't have to sit in a corner if there's only horrors on the table. Vs Kurnoth Hunters it hardly matters as your LoC doesn't really threaten them at all, and will die in one volley of fire. 

 

Feels like we've somewhat belaboured this discussion, imo get out there with that list and bring back some epic batreps. <3

[Mirage8112]

On 3/18/2017 at 1:20 AM, Nico said:

One concern is that the list is susceptible to unfavourable rule interpretations - e.g. Split being Mandatory or the newly created units being capped at derpy size not at increments of 10 (you get what you paid for). We've addressed those points in the FAQ for London's Calling 2017 (as you may know), but we may see other events ruling these points differently.

 This list somewhat gets around that, even if the tournament organizers rule that unit size is capped. Since the split rule states new horrors (blue/brims) can be added to existing units without needing to pay reenforcement costs, my thought is that if you're careful you'll never entirely lose a unit and therefore will always have a unit within 6" to add to. 

 

On 3/18/2017 at 1:20 AM, Nico said:

You could use a GS with Windthief or Balewind Vortex to summon the LoC into range. Also the back of his base has to be within 18" of the caster which helps. Or you could summon one Herald - which can summon the LoC and then zap with Pink Fire and then do Arcane Bolt if it gets another 9 on the cast roll.

Rereading the rules for the applicable units the other day makes me think summoning a LoC isn't necessary to pull this strategy off. In fact, it's probably more risky to try summoning a LoC since the rules for summoning state he can't move when summoned (so no moving him out of arrow range once he hits the field.) I think the better play is as you say; summoning a second herald onto the field to pop whatever needs popping. Using the newly summoned herald arcane tome to cast pink fire means you stand a reasonable chance to cast arcane bolt as well. more than enough to mortal wound to deal a savage big boss. Plus it's only 140 pt caster. He'll probably eat it in the subsequent turn, but it's not like it's the huge point investment that the LoC is. 

Furthermore, it's probably better to have the pink horrors summon the herald. If your trying for a single drop, it might be difficult to put the herald down in a place that positions him within 38" of the savage big boss if the boss hasn't hit the field yet. But if you put the horror on your front lines, 20 pinks gives a much larger summoning threat range since the 18" summoning range can be measured from any part of the unit. If the herald is sporting well of arcane might, he allows any wizard within 9" to reroll 1's. This might allay some of @Tokyo Nift's fears that a herald will be taken out by enemy shooting (still not sure how that would happen, since it's unlikely anything will be able to get in range first turn), Plus, the herald gives the pinks +1 to cast. That means the pinks need a natural 4 on two dice and can re-roll 1's. That's pretty much a 95% chance. (might also be a good use of a "3" destiny dice. One of the dice numbers that's not super useful.) 

 

On 3/18/2017 at 2:33 AM, Tokyo Nift said:

Feels like we've somewhat belaboured this discussion, imo get out there with that list and bring back some epic batreps.

Part of why these forums are so helpful is that it lets us talk out and discuss the pros and con of building a good list. Theorycrafting is sometimes extensive, but unlimitedly what comes out if it is better the more discussion that happens around it. We've come up with some doozies in the Let's chat Sylvaneth thread (our gnarlroot discussions went on for about 30 pages).

Discussing counters and problems is important to, theres nothing like painting up 140 models worth of hours and running into a hard counter that you didn't plan for in a tournament. Nobody wants to see that happen...

 

On 3/18/2017 at 2:33 AM, Tokyo Nift said:

The issue isn't really the max range of the summon but the blocking of summoning zones. The LoC has to arrive 18" away from the boss but 9" away from any other model, it's not hard to block these channels if you're expecting a summon. The thundertusks don't have to sit in a corner if there's only horrors on the table.

  
I'm not sure how that would happen unless he specifically deployed to handle that and the deployment counter for that really weakens the way the destruction player's list functions. 

Even if the Destruction player deploys the savage big boss right on his back lines, as far away from you as is possible, the thundertusks can only deploy right on the front line (otherwise the arrow boys would be in the way when they tried to move up to block summoning). That means the goblins with their fanatic insurance policy have little to nowhere to go (rendering them irrelevant). This deployment would pretty much guarantee the destruction player lost a thundertusk or two in first round since the the thundertusks hard counter is ranged wounds and the arrow boys won't be able to move close enough to take out any ranged threats to the tusks. (certainly not with the changeling halving their movement.)

And even if he did deploy that way this is (so far) a single drop battalion. You could always take the first turn and pop the big boss before the tusks have the ability to move out and block a summoning attempt. The deployment rules are (basically) 12" from the back of the board. So with a 1" base, that puts him 11" from the front lines and then 9" from the front of the tusks base so 20" away.  

That to me screams "skullcannon" with it's 30" range. Since summoned units don't have to conform to the army's allegiance, that's pretty much a perfect counter and it's only 180 pts. You wouldn't be able to use destiny dice for it (since destiny dice need a Tzeentch aligned unit.) but it has a 30% chance to take the boss out in a single shot. And if it dies before it kills him, the arrow boys won't be able to get in range in the second turn either (thanks to changeling) which means they're pretty much irrelevant for the first 2 turns of the game. More than enough time to summon a second skull cannon and definitely pop the boss in the second round. Plus you'll also get a chance to focus one of the tusks down either by summoning something with ranged ability (3 exalted flamers should be able to pop 1 maybe even 2 per shooting phase) or through spells from the horrors who are pretty happy to take whatever wounds they get (thanks regen!) in order to get close. 
 

On 3/18/2017 at 2:33 AM, Tokyo Nift said:

Vs Kurnoth Hunters it hardly matters as your LoC doesn't really threaten them at all, and will die in one volley of fire. 

It would take 12 hunters and a Hurricanum to kill a LoC in one volley of fire. Which is a hefty 1100 pt investment. In that case why would you summon a LoC within range there? That's just dumb. There's better ways to deal with a unit like that. The strategy above is specifically for dealing with Kunnin' Rukk obviously you'd do something different vs a Sylvaneth player. 

[Tokyo Nift]

Ok so let's assume we're only countering Kunnin Rukk.

I think going first is the better play, and let's go ahead and say we summon in a second herald, and oneshot the savage big boss on turn 1. 

We now have our army with very little damage, very low mobility, and very low survivability BUT high regeneration on our units if they don't get wiped out.  Let's say we want to kill a thundertusk. 

Exalted Flamers x3 - we summon them in on an 11 so we use destiny dice - 18 shots,  9 hits, 6 wounds, 3 unsaved - 6 damage.  Then we hope that we don't accidentally heal the thundertusk, and that we wounded once with each flamer, and we get an extra 3 Mortal Wounds from the warpflame. So 9 wounds. Thundertusk has 3 left.

None of our horrors are in range for turn one shooting, seems hard not to take heavy retribution from the Rukk list at this point.  Our horror damage output after this turn 1 is:

Pinks at 23" - 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75 wounds
Blues at 19" - 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25 wounds
Brimstones at 17" - 20, 10, 5, 2.5 wounds

Arcane Bolt: D3 MW at 18"
Bolt of Tzeentch? We can't reliably cast an 8 cost spell, but D6 MW at 18"

We could just about kill the second thundertusk if our whole army was within 18" of it. Assuming nothing we had died or failed to cast. Questionable damage output at that point when the thundertusks also each heal D3 wounds per turn.

I guess the potency of this list would have to come from summoned in units. Which does allow you a high amount of flexibility. 

 

[Nico]

Quote

You wouldn't be able to use destiny dice for it (since destiny dice need a Tzeentch aligned unit.) but it has a 30% chance to take the boss out in a single shot. 

Big Boss is 6 wounds. am I missing something about the Skullcannon's strength at pew pew? I've looked at them as a summoning option - not entirely convinced for the cost.

[Tokyo Nift]

15 minutes ago, Nico said:

Big Boss is 6 wounds. am I missing something about the Skullcannon's strength at pew pew? I've looked at them as a summoning option - not entirely convinced for the cost.

Maths for skull cannon looks like:

1 shot, 0.666666 hits, 0.4444444 wounds, unsaved, 1.4 damage average. The average isn't a particularly meaningful statistic here though I don't think.

Chances of doing 6 wounds:

2/3 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 4/54 = 7%

[DarkBlack]

Did the issue of using destiny dice for mortal wounds ever get resolved?

[Tokyo Nift]

2 hours ago, DarkBlack said:

Did the issue of using destiny dice for mortal wounds ever get resolved?

No official response as far as I know. But I think most people are playing that yes, you can use them.

[Arkiham]

Waiting on Faq.

 

But I've seen the majority of players use it as it's fine.

Once people calmed down and realised that it isn't as bad as they thought when they tried to swing the ban hammer people seem fine with it.

[FunkyPunk]

What do you guys think about the gaunt summoner + familiars on a vortex? Is it a bit too cheeky? I know you can't have any other models on the vortex, but the familiars rules just say that they're set up within 1" of him whenever the gaunt summoner moves or is set up. 

Sorry if it's been asked before, but I can't see any ruling about it anywhere.

[Arkiham]

Yeah that's fine 

[Tokyo Nift]

1 hour ago, FunkyPunk said:

What do you guys think about the gaunt summoner + familiars on a vortex? Is it a bit too cheeky? I know you can't have any other models on the vortex, but the familiars rules just say that they're set up within 1" of him whenever the gaunt summoner moves or is set up. 

Sorry if it's been asked before, but I can't see any ruling about it anywhere.

Sounds perfectly fine to me. If he summoned the balewind I can't imagine why his familiars WOULDN'T go up with him.

[Mirage8112]

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Ok so let's assume we're only countering Kunnin Rukk.

I think going first is the better play, and let's go ahead and say we summon in a second herald, and oneshot the savage big boss on turn 1. 

We now have our army with very little damage, very low mobility, and very low survivability BUT high regeneration on our units if they don't get wiped out. 

Now your talking!  Few things though.

I was thinking about this problem last night. Basically either way this deployment goes, it comes down to how to deal with the 3 thundertusks. If we manage to snipe the leader out, the shooting becomes much less of a threat and the tusks become the threat. The only way he can hide the savage big boss is to turtle him against the back of the board to stay out of summoning range. Unfortunately for him, Arrowboyz only have a range of 18", that means if he wants to make use of the free hero phase shots, he has to keep the arrow boys within 10" of the savage boss; that doesn't give him a lot of options. 

Furthermore, even if he does take the first turn, it still becomes a real balancing act for him. He has to keep the front of the thundertusks base at least 9" from the front of the savage bosses base. If he doesn't, we can swoop in and snipe the savage boss. He also has to keep the arrowboys in the 4" space between the tusks and the boss. Any further up and they won't benefit from the battalion ability (in which case, he's effectively lost the boss) and any further back they won't be able to offer much protection to the tusks in front of them (as it stands now they can reach about 10" in front of the tusks). 

We should also talk a little bit about battleplans. The battleplan that is most favorable to Kunnin' Rukkis probably take and hold. Gunlines do best when then can force the enemy to approach and have no incentive to move themselves. 
 

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I think going first is the better play, and let's go ahead and say we summon in a second herald, and oneshot the savage big boss on turn 1...

I'm not keen on this plan. The last thing we want to do is give him the opportunity for a double turn. Plus, we're assuming he's expecting a summon-snipe and deploying as we discussed, 3 tusks on the front lines, and savage boss hugging the back of the board. It makes sense for us let him waste a shooting phase, since there obviously won't be be any targets the arrowboys can reach in the hero or shooting phases first turn.  

We could also expect he'd move the tusks up to give himself a little bit of room. If he's trying to prevent a summon-snipe he'll want to move up and increase the buffer between a summon and its target. But as I mentioned before, it will also put the tusks further out in arrowboy's range. Moving the arrowboys up is probably not smart for him, since he probably wants to keep the boss as far back as possible (otherwise he's just moving everything forward and he gains nothing)

So we would start out first turn with three tusks say, 6" between the midline and his deployment zone. about maybe 6-8" apart. 

Now...
 

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Let's say we want to kill a thundertusk.

It's probably best to target one of the side tusks. Depending on terrain, the ones on the sides should be more than 18" apart. If so that means the max one tusk could heal is 2D3 on a 3+. 
 

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Exalted Flamers x3 - we summon them in on an 11 so we use destiny dice - 18 shots,  9 hits, 6 wounds, 3 unsaved - 6 damage.  Then we hope that we don't accidentally heal the thundertusk, and that we wounded once with each flamer, and we get an extra 3 Mortal Wounds from the warpflame. So 9 wounds. Thundertusk has 3 left.

Flamers probably aren't the best choice for taking down tusk. What we really need are ranged mortal wounds. I would guess the best course of action is to summon a LoC 18" away from one of the tusks preferably toward the table edge and a new herald between the target tusk and the center tusk. That way if you don't get the double turn the LoC will be well out of the way of arrow fire (and you also have the changeling to prevent to prevent the arrow boys from getting into range by halving their movement) and he'll at most have to deal with a wounded tusk since the center tusk won't be able to position for a charge on the LoC without getting within 3" of the herald. The tusk on the other edge will just have to wait its turn.

First hero phase, burn the edge tusk with magic. Between the LoC spell, arcane bolt, pink fire and Bolt of Tzeencth, (it's fairly easy to get 4 spells between the herald and the LoC) with the odd destiny dice if you need a critical damage roll, you should be able to burn at least 1 tusk down in a single magic phase (3D6 and D3 mortal wounds).
 

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Bolt of Tzeentch? We can't reliably cast an 8 cost spell, but D6 MW at 18"

Depending on who casts it we can. The LoC only needs a single dice of 4+, and once per game a herald can cast a spell on 3 dice once per game (and since he'll likely dice next turn theres not reason not to use it). Depending on how you deploy your herald you might also be able to get him in range to have wellspring come into play (rerolling 1's).

In your first movement phase, you should be able to move the horrors up into range of the center tusk. Because of the arrowboys positioning and restricted movement from the changeling you should be able to get the horrors into position where they can shoot (18") but not be shot back by the arrow boys should you not get the double turn. If they can't quite get there, it's actually not too big of a problem. Because the herald is still sitting there from popping the first tusk, he won't be able to get within range to use his blizzard's ability anyway, even if he does, there should be more than enough bodies to soak and regenerate the damage. The third tusk we could actually approach and bait a charge (pulling him out of the Rukk's shooting range), preferably with the 20 brimstones since they cost the least to replace if the unit is wiped out. The most damage they can take at range (if they approach from the far side) is 6 wounds since they shouldn't be in range of the center tusk. 

You obviously won't be charging since anything in CC with the tusks is in range of the Rukk, so then it's the roll off for the second turn. If you win, then you have the opportunity to destroy a second tusk either through magic or summoning. If you don't win the second turn, the most you've lost is the herald (since its the only unit in range for the ice ability). Everything else should be out of range since the archers had stay back and can only move 6" forward (at most) thanks to the changeling. 

Adding to this, is the fact that if the changeling is deployed on/near his objective, we can force forced him to hold one of the thundertusks back at deployment. Otherwise the changeling prevents him from scoring and he'l likely lose the game on objectives alone. (he can't use the savage boss to reveal the changeling, because deploying him within 3" puts him in range of a summoning snipe. I'd gladly trade the changeling for the taking the boss out.) Which is ok for us as well since he'll be forced to split the tusks up meaning we only have to deal with 2 tusks instead of 3 (less healing, less ranged mortal wounds) 

22 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I guess the potency of this list would have to come from summoned in units. Which does allow you a high amount of flexibility. 

Incidentally, i think this plan would work with any battalion we wanted to run. It's usefulness is not confined to the multitudinous host. I still think the MH is a strong choice in an objective based scenario and this theory crafting session is really a way to think through one of our trickier match-ups (Kunnin' Rukk). Still, I think the strategy above would work if he deployed specifically to block a summoning snipe. 
 

18 hours ago, Nico said:

Big Boss is 6 wounds. am I missing something about the Skullcannon's strength at pew pew? I've looked at them as a summoning option - not entirely convinced for the cost.

Yes. My mistake. Read the wrong part of the scroll. No matter. I think if we're careful and put pressure in the right place we can basically make the shooting irrelevant. It's tricky and requires a lot of knowledge about positioning and ranges. But basically you're forcing him to play defensively if he wants to protect the savage boss. Doing so pus him at a real disadvantage, since playing conservatively reduces the positioning options for his arrowboys and give us an opportunity to attack from outside his arrowboys threat radius. 

 

[Tokyo Nift]

Agree with most of your post Mirage. If we let him go first he can move his block twice and then shoot us though right? That's how the Rukk works? 

I think largely speaking if you're going to play strictly Daemons of Tzeentch, MH or Changehost are the ways to go, and you have to have lots of horrors really. I personally think the Changehost is more competitive, but I can definitely see the MH trolling certain lists/matchups. I certainly don't think you'd ever lose Take and Hold with infinite horrors

The only other thing I'd say is if I were the Rukk player, I wouldn't worry about protecting my boss, I don't feel like he needs the boss to win.  But would have to see some games to get a feel!

[Mirage8112]

14 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Agree with most of your post Mirage. If we let him go first he can move his block twice and then shoot us though right? That's how the Rukk works? 

He can, if he's in range. But remember the changeling halves his movement. D6 move in the hero phase will likely only be 3" max, so 3" + 18" shooting is only 21". Not enough to be in range of anything. Since arrowboyz base movement is 5", half of that is 3" (rounding up) that means arrowboys only have a 24" max threat range from deployment. Since there is exactly 24" between deployment zones he wouldn't be in range to hit anything. (and he certainly wouldn't be deploying right on the front lines, because the tusks are there to block summoning remember?)  
 

18 minutes ago, Tokyo Nift said:

The only other thing I'd say is if I were the Rukk player, I wouldn't worry about protecting my boss, I don't feel like he needs the boss to win.

Not protecting the boss also means he can't really protect the block of archers, (which started this whole theory-crafting session in the first place). In a pinch if I wanted to summon-snipe the boss, I'd likely be able to summon something to peel models out of the block. There's not really a way he can protect the block AND be in range to shoot where he needs to shoot. Remember with the boss and the block at full strength, he's putting out 240 shots a turn, ~60 wounds with no rend. But lose the boss and 5-10 boys, that shot output drops dramatically; 90-105 shots, ~22-26 with no rend. (and that assumes they are all in range of their target) 

In fact, the arrowboys are why we're holding the horrors back and pew-pewing with spells outside their threat range. If he loses the boss and a few boys, then the brimstone horrors can tie up the tusks (since it's unlikely all the boys will be in range to shoot, and the brims are chaff anyway) while the blues/pinks burn them down from a distance.  

It seems in this match-up, best case scenario for the destruction player is that he ties. There's not really a way for him to win given how many bodies we have sitting on the objective; if he plays too aggressively he has to fight outside his threat range and lose his bodyguards. From there, its just a matter of using the changeling to deny him 1 round of points from the objective. 

[Tokyo Nift]

Your maths on the movement seems off - he destruction moves 3.5", he moves 3", he moves 3" again, that's 12.5", then he gets 18" of shooting, so 30"? (Though obviously we can just deploy outwith 30"). Protecting the block doesn't seem particularly necessary given that it has 80 wounds.

I think again, we've kinda theorycrafted this more than is practical. It would definitely be hard for him to kill all the horrors, so take and hold/blood and glory are likely a draw - I also don't see how we would win those scenarios though. In terms of which army is winning in terms of kill points, I would still definitely put my money on the greenskins. I feel like we would lose our LoC pretty fast etc.  Would definitely be interested to see it on the tabletop though, I might try it out. I have loads of horrors lying around.

[Ratso]

Hey guys, 

Late last week I sent through some concerns I had with the Azyr app in relation to my Tzeentch Mortals under a Tzeemtch Allegiance. I just received a response from GW which left me disappointed and confused. Before I go back to GW I was keen to make sure I have not overlooked something I thought I would run it by you guys. 

As not to paraphrase I have cut and pasted my question and GWs response below. Feedback appreciated.

The community team suggested I email you regarding a few corrections required on the new Azyr section of the AoS app. I currently run a Tzeentch mortals army however Azyr under the Tzeentch Alliegence only provided daemon and Arcanities battalions. There should also provide access to a number of mortal Tzeentch ones as well. These battalions Fatesworn and  Irongaurd should be made available within Azyr under matched play as per the statement on I think page 95 of the Tzeentch Alliedence book which confirms these battalions can be used in the Tzeentch Alliegance, so unsure why they have been omitted from the Tzeentch battalion list in Azyr.

 

Secondly I have noticed a number of units have not been made available in the Tzeentch allegiance including units like Archaon on steed, Exalted Hero with Standard, Foresaken, gigantic chaos spawn and Galrauch which can be selected for matched play under the grand chaos Alleigence but not under the Tzeentch Alliegence even though they all either have the Tzeentch key  word or can select it. Interesting though I can pick Sayl the Faithless in my Tzeentch Allegiance army yet he does not have or have access to the Tzeentch key word so a little confused.

 

Currently a number of AoS tournaments are requesting list submissions occur via Azyr and I currently can't submit my last due to this issue. So if these could be address that would be fantastic.

 

GW Response

 

Hi Shaun,I have been through each one of the warscrolls that you have mentioned and checked all the keywords for each one. and they are all correct. 

 

 If you could also check the FAQ within the app, it with give you a little more detail, but I can let you know that because these units don't have the Tzeentch Keywords on their warscrolls they can not be part of a Tzeentch army.

Cheers SJ

[Tokyo Nift]

That sounds like a bad response. 

They basically ignored the important parts of your message If I were you I'd contact your TO(s), and explain the situation and just point out the fact that those scrolls do have Tzeentch alliance. So just submit a Chaos-allegiance army with an explanation that you are taking Tzeentch only warscrolls and Tzeentch allegiance.

TOs will definitely know GW are not on top of this stuff 99% of the time

[Ratso]

Thanks, the key point I want to feel confident in is that I have not overlooked something which I do not believe I have. From the way Azyr has been set up, it looks like compendium Tzeentch units are not allowed to be used in match play using the Tzeentch Allegiance. 

[Tokyo Nift]

1 minute ago, Ratso said:

Thanks, the key point I want to feel confident in is that I have not overlooked something which I do not believe I have. From the way Azyr has been set up, it looks like compendium Tzeentch units are not allowed to be used in match play using the Tzeentch Allegiance. 

This might be intended by GW, that is definitely a possibility, but it is not written down anywhere. And until GW specifically confirm that "old tzeentch" keywords are not the same as "new tzeentch" keywords, I would say that it makes a fun and interesting addition to the game.

I think it'd be a shame for Galrauch to not be allowed to play in a Tzeentch army when his lore is so thematically fitting.

[Mirage8112]

 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

Your maths on the movement seems off - he destruction moves 3.5", he moves 3", he moves 3" again, that's 12.5", then he gets 18" of shooting, so 30"? (Though obviously we can just deploy outwith 30"). Protecting the block doesn't seem particularly necessary given that it has 80 wounds.

3.5+3+3= 9.5. not 12.5.

But I see what your saying. He gets 1 D6 move, cut in half by the changeling so 3" is the max he can move from his free move (it's more likely to be 2"). Then he gets a free move, again 3" and then if he wants, 3". so the most he could get is 9".  Which means his threat range (max) is 27" (most likely 26"), providing he's not blocked by other units. And again, unless he's smack on the front line, (Not a good plan) he's still not going to be able to push into the deployment zone first turn

And again, we don't have to peel more than 5-10 models off the block and kill the boss to make it ineffective. Kunnin Rukk relies on shot volume to deal damage. Kill the boss, peel a few models out of it and the horrors can easily weather the shooting. In a pinch remember the changeling is still chilling in the deployment zone. He can always try to take the boss out on his own. (Cast a spell, charge the boss and attack with the Boss Cleava's weapon profile, 5 attacks 3's and 3's, 1 rend damage 2. that should be enough to do the job in one sitting.)
 

1 hour ago, Tokyo Nift said:

I think again, we've kinda theorycrafted this more than is practical. It would definitely be hard for him to kill all the horrors, so take and hold/blood and glory are likely a draw - I also don't see how we would win those scenarios though.

True. at this point we've sort of hit the limit of theory crafting since we really can't theorycraft reliably past the our first turn (unless we get a double). Because after that point everything becomes less predicable. We can easily guess at how we would handle the opening moves of the game since theres a few things we can suppose/predict based on the way the battalions rules interact. 

I will say if we do get the double turn, it's very possible he'll have lost 2 thundertusks, for a total of 640 points. If we sacrifice the changeling to kill the boss (a decent tradeoff) that's 740 pts, to our loss of 140. As long as we don't do anything stupid that's a decent head start, especially since he has to wipe the entire unit to win kill the points (not easy to do with only 1 tusk left and diminished shooting.)
 

1 hour ago, Ratso said:

Thanks, the key point I want to feel confident in is that I have not overlooked something which I do not believe I have. From the way Azyr has been set up, it looks like compendium Tzeentch units are not allowed to be used in match play using the Tzeentch Allegiance. 

I'm in agreement with @Tokyo Nift that they are mistaken on their response. Some of those units absolutely have the Tzeentch keyword. Furthermore the FAQ stated that unit that an select keywords DO count toward battalions requirements so they have to count toward allegiance requirements since GW has already ruled if the battalion has the keyword, all the units do too for the purposes of determining allegiances:

 

"When picking your army’s allegiance abilities, all units in a warscroll battalion are considered to have the allegiance listed above the title on the warscroll." 

And

Q: When selecting units for warscroll battalions that require certain keywords, do units that gain those keywords upon deployment (e.g. Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes) meet the requirements?

A: Yes, but the required keyword must be taken. 

I'd write them back and reference the FAQ as well a point out warscrolls like Galrauch do have the required keyword. Your T.O. will probably understand there are some buggy things with the app still (Not all the Sylvaneth battalions are functioning totally correctly either). 

[Tokyo Nift]

38 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

3.5+3+3= 9.5. not 12.5.

wow. i fucked that up. haha.

EDIT: doesn't he get his destruction move in his Kunnin' Rukk move too? Or does the destruction move happen in the hero phase.

Charging the Boss with the Changeling is smart, hadn't thought of that. If we get the double turn that's definitely good for us. On our turn 1 though how do we kill anything with the LoC? If the LoC is in range of thundertusks at the start of our turn he's already dead. Or are we talking about summoned in LoC? 

Also even with no boss, those archers are 120 shots, 40 hits, 27 wounds, 18 wounds into our LoC. He needs 94 shots to average out a oneshot on our bird. (By my dubious maths), so we need to strip off 20 models or 40 wounds from the big block to save an LoC. 

Horror Output is 100 -> 50 -> 25 -> 20 wounds on archers or 12.5 on a thundertusk if we get them all in range. 
The threat range on Thundertusks turn one is D6" + 8" + D6" + 18" which is average 33"? (Maths has been proven terrible)

On his first turn, lets assume his archers can't get into range to fire His thundertusks do enough damage to kill our LoC and our Herald on the first turn, which would be bad for us. In order to finish deployment first, we have to finish deployment first,  so he can put his thundertusks wherever he wants to turn one both our characters, we can't hide from a 33" range, the table is simply not big enough.

Then if that happens we are obviously in real trouble left with 750 points of horrors vs his 1700 points of destruction?

 

[Denneysman]

Ok here's the list I'm putting together.

Allegiance: Chaos
    #1                                                          #2                                                               #3
Leaders                                  /        Leaders                                      /                      Leaders            
Herald Of Tzeentch (120)        /      Herald Of Tzeentch (120)         /               Herald Of Tzeentch (120)       
Fatemaster (140)                     /     Tzaangor Shaman (120)            /             Tzaangor Shaman (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)         /      Lord of Change     (300)            /             Archaon The Everchosen (320)
Tzaangor Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)

Units
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (50)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (320)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (160)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (160)

Battalions
Multitudinous Host (30)
Skyshoal Coven (80)
Arcanite Cabal (50)

Total: 1990/2000

 

Now this has a few tricks to it that will make it tough to fight against.

 

1. Give all heroes you can aspect of Tzeentch. plus one of you mortal or Arc. mages Glimpse the Future. (And if you go with leadership #1 50/50 chance of gaining back any dice you use) what this does will give you a almost endless supply of fate dice.

2. One of the cons of MH armies is movement BUT with a Skyshoal Bat. in your army you have 3 hard units that move 25" a turn and with fate dice no hero be they foot or monster should survive or be able to hide from the Skyfires shooting. Plus 6 Enlightened should be able to hurt any unit in the game.

3. With Archaon, plus bond spell, plus fate dice there is no model in the game that will survive combat with him.

 

Now as for the different leaderships. well army should do well with any one of them. That will come down to what you want to play.

#1 is best supply of fate dice and a gunline army mostly

#2 still lots of fate dice but more powerful magic.

#3 again lots of fate dice but powerful HtH unit

 

Now add in all other benefits from army and you have a nice all comers army.