Prayers vs spells

[jpf1982]

I'm certain this has been asked but my search fu is weak. 

 

I see see a lot for people when talking about dwarfs discussing multiple rend stacking. 

 

My question pertains to the matches play rules. I would've assumed they spells and prayers work the same way but question it as often as I've seen this mentioned. Is this in print somewhere that these can stack/cast multiple times?

[KHHaunts]

2 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

I think the answer is somewhere between you guys. Yes, a prayer is a thing. Priest is a keyword. Every time a Priest uses a prayer ability, the ability itself clearly states that the Priest model is "prays" or "is praying." At present, however, that's it - nothing refers to prayers. So right now, it exists in a kind of limbo, where the game concept of "prayer" exists, but the designation doesn't yet mean anything. In other words, between prayers and other abilities, we have a distinction without difference... for now. That could change. There are a couple of keywords in this state right now: Malignant, for example.

Perhaps i should have made my self clearer to begin with.

In relation to the original post prayers are not a "Thing" in that they do not fall under any recognised category that has been or is likely to ever be used in the game mechanic.

Just as it would be very unlikely for a ability that would effect all units with axes. They are just parts of the fluff and appearence of the models.

They are not part of the gameplay

[KHHaunts]

8 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

The battleplan require the priest to pray. Normally with the effect described by the battleplan.

 

However. The point of this debate is wether or not prayers have their own rules. No not in the general rules. However priests pray through their own abilities and battleplan mechanics. I call it praying, muvh more immersive than saying that he will just use blood boil for example.

Yeah i was purely arguing a case for so called Prayer abilities as a "thing" in relation to game mechanics. Not fluff. Of course priests are praying in fluff thats what is says they are doing. But that little bit of immersive desription you get at the start of some abilites dosent mean a thing in terms of Mechanics. "A bretonnian paladin takes a mighty swing with his hammer" Dosent mean there is a new type of skill called "Might Swing" its just for fluff.

As for the battle plan stuff. That dosent really relate to the priests abilites. which was the point of the conversation.

 

Prayers are not a thing in core game mechanics.

But may be in fluff or battleplans.

[Knight of Ruin]

The battleplan require the priest to pray. Normally with the effect described by the battleplan.

 

However. The point of this debate is wether or not prayers have their own rules. No not in the general rules. However priests pray through their own abilities and battleplan mechanics. I call it praying, muvh more immersive than saying that he will just use blood boil for example.

[KHHaunts]

2 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

No prayers do not follow the rules for magic.

Prayers are fully described in each specific prayer ability.

Its called a prayer because that is what priests do.

This distinction is there because quite a few (non-matched play) battleplans require a priest to pray to their god in order to complete an objective.

 

 

The battleplan require the priests to use one of their abilities in order to complete the objective?

[Knight of Ruin]

No prayers do not follow the rules for magic.

Prayers are fully described in each specific prayer ability.

Its called a prayer because that is what priests do.

This distinction is there because quite a few (non-matched play) battleplans require a priest to pray to their god in order to complete an objective.

 

 

[KHHaunts]

7 hours ago, Tasman said:

A totem, in and of itself, has no "ability", but grants abilities to targeted units or all units within its range bubble. Not sure I'm getting the gist of this thread. Anything that has an effect on units or the game mechanics, is carried out (in most cases) during the Hero phase.

This includes, command abilities, prayers, spells, unbinding, planting totems or banners and anything else that constitutes use of a special artifact, ability or weapon.

The point it that "totem" abilities and "prayer" abilities and any other kind of player made category. Is just that. Player made.

They are just abilities. just because priests tend to have an ability that the fluff says they are praying about dosent make it an actual "thing" on its own.

A good example would be the various abilities that things like the hurricanum have. Those abilities are clearly magic. In fluff terms.

But not all of its abilities are Magic in the game sense(as in no casting roll or unbinding) Just because the storm of shemtek comes from a magical machine and fluff wise is clearly just magic. dosent mean i can say "Its magic so i can try to unbind it!"

 

Same applies to "Prayers" there is no Prayer mechanic in the game. Or totem mechanic. There abilities are generic and happen to have some similarities but you could quite easily have a non priest or non totem with abilities that do exactly the same in the same way.

 

Im really not trying to make a bigger deal out of this than it is. This isnt a monumental gaming concept i need people to understand. However its frustrating when people teach other people the way the game works and start referring to "prayers" and "ward" saves.

Those dont exist. Those are terms you have made up for convenience. And they confuse people into asking questions like the one in this post.

Magic, Command abilities and abilities. Thats it.

Im not usually this belligerent.

However what im saying isnt an opinion its a fact.

If anyone is having trouble with that it must be me doing a poor job of explaining it.

This simplest way i can say it is this:

In the game there are axes and swords. Both very different weapons. But as far as the GAMEPLAY is concerned they dont act any differently (You still attack with them in the same way). There are no abilities in the game that effect only axes because there is no way of distinguishing them. They are functionally the same thing.As with all the weapons in the game.

Putting a name to them is purely to make the fluff of the game more interesting. Its the same with abilities.

Just because the fluff says that the person using the skill "Stripped off and ran naked at the enemy" dosent mean that there is a new "Nudest" ability in the game. Its just fluff

[Tasman]

A totem, in and of itself, has no "ability", but grants abilities to targeted units or all units within its range bubble. Not sure I'm getting the gist of this thread. Anything that has an effect on units or the game mechanics, is carried out (in most cases) during the Hero phase.

This includes, command abilities, prayers, spells, unbinding, planting totems or banners and anything else that constitutes use of a special artifact, ability or weapon.

[KHHaunts]

3 minutes ago, ElectricPaladin said:

You are probably right, but I wouldn't want to put money on it. After all, prayers have an associated Keyword - Priest - and axes don't. It wouldn't take much to write an ability that says "when a Priest within X'' prays..." and as written, it would be pretty easy to see when this applies.

To me that's a whole other thing. There is no such thing as Totem abilities yet there is a Totem keyword

I dont think it would be that simple. The word Pray or prayer is not emphasized in any way.

I cant think of a ability that applies to something that i sent part of a key word or mechanic or something like that.

If something effects a priests abilities i think most would take it to mean ALL its abilities.

I dont think that could make it to apply just to the prayer ones without re writing the warscrolls to make Prayer and actual keyword, category or game mechanic.

In other words a "Thing"

[ElectricPaladin]

13 minutes ago, KHHaunts said:

In relation to the original post prayers are not a "Thing" in that they do not fall under any recognised category that has been or is likely to ever be used in the game mechanic.

Just as it would be very unlikely for a ability that would effect all units with axes. They are just parts of the fluff and appearence of the models.

You are probably right, but I wouldn't want to put money on it. After all, prayers have an associated Keyword - Priest - and axes don't. It wouldn't take much to write an ability that says "when a Priest within X'' prays..." and as written, it would be pretty easy to see when this applies.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think the answer is somewhere between you guys. Yes, a prayer is a thing. Priest is a keyword. Every time a Priest uses a prayer ability, the ability itself clearly states that the Priest model is "prays" or "is praying." At present, however, that's it - nothing refers to prayers. So right now, it exists in a kind of limbo, where the game concept of "prayer" exists, but the designation doesn't yet mean anything. In other words, between prayers and other abilities, we have a distinction without difference... for now. That could change. There are a couple of keywords in this state right now: Malignant, for example.

[rokapoke]

4 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

Show me in the core rules where it says anything about prayers as a specific thing. They are just generic abilites and have NO relation to magic when it comes to mechanics.

Show me in the core rules where axes are a specific thing. Nope, they're not in there. Axes specified on individual warscrolls (and never in the core rules), but they exist in the game.

Prayers are a real thing in the game. No, prayers are not "an independent game mechanic" -- and if you reread my post, I never said they were, or should be considered as one. I said that yes, prayers exist in the game, and they are fundamentally different from magic. Prayers occur as abilities (because there are specific abilities that refer to prayers -- just like there are certain melee attacks that refer to axes).

[KHHaunts]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

Actually, the text on warscroll such as the Lord-Relictor and the Slaughterpriest specifically indicate that when using their abilities they pray to achieve a certain effect. So yes, prayers are a thing, but prayers do not work like magic and cannot be unbound. 

Erm no . . . .

just because there is a little bit of fluff talk mixed in with the ability descriptions dosent make it an independent game mechanic.

The celestant prime cometstrike sceptre says that he seizes a comet from the heavens. So are we calling this "Astromancy"? or just an ability with fluff. Just because it says what the unit ability is in relation to dosent give it its own category in the game.

Show me in the core rules where it says anything about prayers as a specific thing. They are just generic abilites and have NO relation to magic when it comes to mechanics.

a "Not prayer" that unbinds magic is no different from a magic sword that does the same.

Magic, abilities and command abilities. Thats it

[rokapoke]

3 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

There are no such things a prayers. There is magic and not magic.

...

But as stated "Prayers" are not a thing.

Actually, the text on warscroll such as the Lord-Relictor and the Slaughterpriest specifically indicate that when using their abilities they pray to achieve a certain effect. So yes, prayers are a thing, but prayers do not work like magic and cannot be unbound. 

[KHHaunts]

12 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Just.

Read.

The rules.

 

Prayers are not a separate thing. They're an ability that some models with the "Priest" keyword have, and they work exactly as they say they work on the battlescroll in question.

what he said ^

There is quite alot of bad interpretation from people listening to other players bad habits. Its like refering the the "anti mortal wound/Wound save after save" abilites as "Ward" saves. Yes it is a nice neat way of putting it but it seems to make people think that ward saves are still an actual thing.

There are no such things a prayers. There is magic and not magic.

a Dracoths lightning breath is the same as a relictors call down the lightning ability.

People just refer to them as "Prayers" because they bare a striking resembalance to magic in terms of there use without most of the draw backs.

But as stated "Prayers" are not a thing.

[Squirrelmaster]

Prayers aren't spells, they are just abilities. You don't need a rule to say that they can stack, because there's no rule to say they can't.

[ElectricPaladin]

Just.

Read.

The rules.

 

Prayers are not a separate thing. They're an ability that some models with the "Priest" keyword have, and they work exactly as they say they work on the battlescroll in question.