Keyword Confusion

[Baron_Bathory]

Hey all!

So I'm running into a problem where non inclusion of appropriate keywords is causing an issue with rules and list making. I'll mention the 2 that apply to me, but I'm sure there are others.

1. Hellcannon does not have the Zharr Gorgoth or Legions of Azgorh keywords, and thus technically cannot be taken in an army with LoA allegiance. This is obviously a mistake, the Hellcannon is a Chaos Dwarf unit. Furthermore, the Hellcannon is included in the Tamurkhan: ToC army list for LoA. Are we to just assume this was a mistake? Will I get problems at any tournaments for using it? This also applies to goblin units. They should have specified that if LoA is listed as your allegiance, standard goblins (and black orcs) become battleline and gain the chaos and LoA keyword. It even lists standard goblins as a replacement for hobgobbos in the PDF file, but the keywords and the General's handbook rules for LoA don't reflect this.

2. Black Orcs vs. Ardboyz. If I use black orcs as black orcs to get buffs from grimgor, I can't technically use them as battleline in an Ironjawz army as they don't have the ardboy keyword. If I use them as Ardboyz for battleline, I can't get the buffs from Grimgor as Ardboyz don't have the black orc keyword. Is this intended?

How do you gents suggest I handle either of these situations?

Thank you so much for any and all help

[KHHaunts]

2 hours ago, Baron_Bathory said:

@KHHaunts Hey thanks for the reply! I'm inclined to agree on the black orc part, although being technically the same unit, they have different uses and profiles depending on if you're playing classic Orcs & Gobbos or Destruction/Ironjawz. As far as the Hellcannon and the Hobgobbos, I definitely think it's more than an oversight, if not an outright mistake. The Hellcannon is listed in the LoA list for 8th edition. They made a point of listing official replacements for all obsolete units including the K'Daai Destroyer and all the the hobgoblin models.

My take is that the General's Handbook might not have been planned right away. They didn't include the Hellcannon because it was already listed in the Chaos Warriors PDF and at that point you could use anything with anything so it didn't matter. Once the Handbook was released, it probably just became a backburner issue that wasn't a priority because it didn't involve newer AoS units.

Of course, I may be wrong on my opinion, but one thing is for certain, this kind of sucks.... I have no doubt that if we were at an official GW tourney they would pass it, I don't think this is intended at all. I guess we'll wait and see.

Thanks for your input!

Yeah i guess i can see your point. the common factor here is that its the only one that isent a forge world miniature.

I wont deny that it needs changing  however the only way i can see that happening is if an overwhelming majority of people mentioned it to GW.

GW tend to stick to there guns when it comes to mistakes and even when the overwhelming of majority of people point it out to them they will proberbly try and correct it without admitting the actually made an error.

Think how much force was behind the demand for points before it was changed.

I would wait until the nest faq and try and get your say in. Id definitely put my name to that idea though.

Good luck my friend!

[KHHaunts]

I think unfortunatly until prooven otherwise the rules are simply the rules as i dont think this count as a mistake. I can see this really only be a problem in competivite play. I personally wouldnt care if you wanted to take the hel cannon as a azgorh unit.

However to say that its obviously a mistake might be a bit much. its an oversight possibly but the hellcannon before aos was for a long time simply a Chaos unit and was just a tip of the hat to the chaos dwarfs until forge world brought them back. To me it would be like saying that Mortis engine not being nighthaunt despite being covered in Ghosts and featuring in a Nighthaunt starter box is an obvious mistake. Its true enough but i dont think it will fly with alot of people.

As for how to handle that one. atleast the LOA have other warmachines to call upon until the issue can be resolved officially. If it dosent have the keyword then i dont think you can be angry at anyone for pulling you up on it.

As for the black orc thing i would have to say it is intentional. There are alot of instances in the compendium warscrolls of this sort of thing happening Ardboys arent black orcs despite being almost identical in stats they are intended as a different unit you would need topick one of the other.

While i think these sort of things are oversites that GW should perhaps revisit i dont seem them as mistakes you can just ignore. Kind of like base to base over model to model i think its something that wasent thought through well enough. To me a mistake would need to be very small. such as Brets having Free People keyword while Empire have Free PeopleS but until GW or the tournement officials acknowledge the issue someone can pull me up on it (They are automatically 'that guy' imo but hey!)

 

All of what i said mainly applies to competitive play not open play where the whole dicussion thing comes to the fore. You can always ask youre opponent in competitions and im sure in many instances the opponent will be reasonable.

But if not be prepared to suck it up.

[Baron_Bathory]

@KHHaunts Hey thanks for the reply! I'm inclined to agree on the black orc part, although being technically the same unit, they have different uses and profiles depending on if you're playing classic Orcs & Gobbos or Destruction/Ironjawz. As far as the Hellcannon and the Hobgobbos, I definitely think it's more than an oversight, if not an outright mistake. The Hellcannon is listed in the LoA list for 8th edition. They made a point of listing official replacements for all obsolete units including the K'Daai Destroyer and all the the hobgoblin models.

My take is that the General's Handbook might not have been planned right away. They didn't include the Hellcannon because it was already listed in the Chaos Warriors PDF and at that point you could use anything with anything so it didn't matter. Once the Handbook was released, it probably just became a backburner issue that wasn't a priority because it didn't involve newer AoS units.

Of course, I may be wrong on my opinion, but one thing is for certain, this kind of sucks.... I have no doubt that if we were at an official GW tourney they would pass it, I don't think this is intended at all. I guess we'll wait and see.

Thanks for your input!

[Hans]

Points is added as an additional play style... not a changes. 

Feel free to play open and ignore battleline or what...

[Furious]

Keywords are odd. It was pointed out to me recently that many warmachines don't have their faction keyword. Does this mean that if I take some doom divers in my Gitmob list, my wolf riders won't count as battleline since the doom diver itself doesn't have the "Gitmob" keyword? The crew has it. I would assume this is a mistake, but it's pretty consistent over factions and alliances.

As well, the LoA compendium says you can use the goblin warscroll for hobgoblins. Do they get the Chaos keyword? A LoA keyword? Unanswered questions that seem to automatically pop up. Maybe we need another FAQ.

For the Hellcannon though, yeah, it used to be a Warriors of Chaos unit. Silly I know, but it's technically not LoA. The Black Orcs, I'd say you'd have to go with Black Orcs and Grimgor or... not and use them for battleline. They're not the same thing, but they were too similar to price them separately as compendium. But most friendly games, your opponent would probably allow it. I would.

[tolstedt]

There are no Black Orcs in matched play.  They are not pointed in the GHB.  

Grimgor's Da Immortulz doesn't work on Ardboyz as of now.

I used Da Immortulz on a unit of Ardboyz in a casual game.  In my opinion it worked very well and was not overpowered and made Grimgor worth his points cost.  I would like to see Da Immortulz get an errata and think it would be balanced and good for the Ironjawz.

I would not bring him to a tournament if the tournament didn't allow for Da Immortulz.  He is not worth the points.

[KHHaunts]

9 hours ago, Hans said:

Points is added as an additional play style... not a changes. 

Feel free to play open and ignore battleline or what...

just an oppinion. Just because GW played it off as "here are some points. . .you know if you want them . . . but whatever" dosent mean that them making points in response to the many many complaints wasenbt them correcting what they thought was a mistake without losing face or alienating the seemingly minority group who were happy without.

As it happens as soon as we got points all the haters shut up and it became clear that actually alot of people didnt really care about points after all.

Still think GW saw it as a mistake they were trying to correct without admitting they had made one though. Just my oppinion though.

[BaldoBeardo]

just an oppinion. Just because GW played it off as "here are some points. . .you know if you want them . . . but whatever" dosent mean that them making points in response to the many many complaints wasenbt them correcting what they thought was a mistake without losing face or alienating the seemingly minority group who were happy without.
As it happens as soon as we got points all the haters shut up and it became clear that actually alot of people didnt really care about points after all.
Still think GW saw it as a mistake they were trying to correct without admitting they had made one though. Just my oppinion though.

I think when GW decided to shelve points for AoS initially, they were drastically optimistic about wargamers' ability (as a collective) to not be d-bags, personally.

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