Hand of Gork

[Nico]

So Hand of Gork doubles how far you can move "in your next movement phase".

Kunnin Rukk allows you to move "as if it were the movement phase". So there's a deemed movement phase in your hero phase.

On one reading, the next movement phase is the deemed movement phase (during the hero phase), so the real movement phase is the one after the next movement phase. If so, then you could only move 10 plus run in the hero phase and a further five in the real movement phase - rather than moving 20 plus the run.

Thoughts?

[Sedge]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Thanks Sedge - you're the expert on the Green Horde it seems.

It's still pretty phenomenal as you can reach targets on the enemy back line with 10 + Run + 5 plus 18.

There might be mileage in chucking Arkhan suicidally into range of the Wizards just to ensure he can unbind those two critical buff spells. He's not that expensive.

Hardly. Played a game last night against another bonespliter army and noticed that is been playing the maniak wierdnob spell all wrong. I thought it was a single unit that got the benifit rather than everything within 10"

I hadn't spotted just how good this spell actually is. 

[BaldoBeardo]

Like I said, I don't have the exact wordings. But as you keep pointing out, the movement phase is the movement phase is the movement phase. Units don't have a movement phase, they move during it.

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[amysrevenge]

Your or their - same either way.  Otherwise you're doing that thing that makes me mad - finding ways to make "as if it's the Movement Phase" mean "it's not the Movement Phase".

[BaldoBeardo]

Sorry, I meant I think they only get the bonus movement once, but in the move-move phase rather than the hero-move phase - but hinges on whether the wording is "their" or "your" next movement phase.

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[amysrevenge]

Sorry Beardo but it's not twice.  Here's the exact order of operations.

1) Our focus begins on the Wizard, who says "Hooray, it's the Hero Phase! I'm gonna cast a spell!"

2) Wizard casts Hand of Gork on some Savage Orruks.

3) We apply our Kunnin' Rukk ability to those same Savage Orruks.

4) Focus shifts to the Savage Orruks, who say "Hooray, it's the Movement Phase!  I'm gonna move!"

5) When the Savage Orruks move, they check for effects on them.  It's the Movement Phase, in fact it's the "next Movement Phase" since Hand of Gork was cast, so they fly at 10" speed.  Zoom zoom!

6) Savage Orruks finish their move.  It's back to being the Hero Phase for everyone.

7) Hero Phase is completed

8) Movement Phase begins.  At some point during the Movement Phase, the Savage Orruks are selected to move.  They check for effects on them.  Is it the "next Movement Phase" since Hand of Gork was cast on them?  Nope, they already had one!  This is their second Movement Phase since the spell was cast.  They make a normal move, 5" without flying.

[BaldoBeardo]

I agree that it could be clearer.

It's good that no-one is trying to advocate that it works in both phases, so you seem to agree that the "next" movement phase wording limits it to once only.

Didn't advocate it, but suggested it. Don't know the exact wording though. My gut is that the "in your next movement phase" is the key bit suggesting the ability doesn't kick in until the *actual* movement phase.

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[Nico]

I agree that it could be clearer.

It's good that no-one is trying to advocate that it works in both phases, so you seem to agree that the "next" movement phase wording limits it to once only.

[Naishy]

I am not sure it matters much as it functionally makes no difference but I think the Kunnin Ruck/Hand of Gork interaction should result in a 5" move in the hero phase from the Kunnin Ruck and then a 10" Hand of Gork move in the movement phase (with a standard savage Orruk).

The text "as if it were your movement phase" is there to establish you follow the rules of the movement phase when moving your models, namely not moving the model more than the move value and not moving within 3" of enemy models.  Making a run would also be permitted unless specifically prevented (like in the IronJawz Ironfist battalion).

The Hand of Gork text "next movement phase" is not triggered until the actual movement phase which comes after the Kunnin Ruck move which is done in the Hero phase.

[Nico]

Cranking the numbers - it looks like 40 Arrowboyz with +1 to hit and rerolling 1s and exploding attacks on 5+s amount to about 24 wounds to a 4+ save, or 16 wounds to a 3+ save for a single round of shooting (so could do 48 in hero plus shooting phase if in range). 

In this light, it's not so surprising that Terry's mystic shielded Stormfiends only lost 2 models to shooting in the first turn (I think you moved them in the hero phase and then shot in the shooting phase).  

It's a lot of damage, but it's not as bad as I first thought. Things like a 2+ save (on a non-monster) or a rerollable save or a Ward Save or any debuffs to hit rolls neuter this reasonably well. 

[Nico]

Thanks Sedge - you're the expert on the Green Horde it seems.

It's still pretty phenomenal as you can reach targets on the enemy back line with 10 + Run + 5 plus 18.

There might be mileage in chucking Arkhan suicidally into range of the Wizards just to ensure he can unbind those two critical buff spells. He's not that expensive.

[BaldoBeardo]

Sorry dude, but you've touched my biggest pet peeve.  You're looking at a rule that says "as if it's your movement phase" and trying to find reasons to make it NOT as if it's your movement phase.

Consider it this way - if they DID intend it to work the way Nico and I are suggesting, how would you word it differently to have it work?  In my opinion, the "as if..." language is exactly how you'd do it.

My only issue with this is that if that is the logic you follow, they do get to do it twice.

Movement in your next movement phase is doubled.

They get to move as if it's the movement phase in the hero phase.

They then get to move again in the movement phase.

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[Sedge]

Nico I think your right. 

[rokapoke]

59 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Sorry dude, but you've touched my biggest pet peeve.  You're looking at a rule that says "as if it's your movement phase" and trying to find reasons to make it NOT as if it's your movement phase.

Consider it this way - if they DID intend it to work the way Nico and I are suggesting, how would you word it differently to have it work?  In my opinion, the "as if..." language is exactly how you'd do it.

Fair enough. Again, this isn't something I've encountered before. Just offering my opinion. 

[amysrevenge]

46 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

after all, your hero phase movement is "as if it's your movement phase," which is not the same thing as occurring in the movement phase.

Sorry dude, but you've touched my biggest pet peeve.  You're looking at a rule that says "as if it's your movement phase" and trying to find reasons to make it NOT as if it's your movement phase.

Consider it this way - if they DID intend it to work the way Nico and I are suggesting, how would you word it differently to have it work?  In my opinion, the "as if..." language is exactly how you'd do it.

[rokapoke]

I think I would interpret it as not doubling movement in the hero phase -- after all, your hero phase movement is "as if it's your movement phase," which is not the same thing as occurring in the movement phase. So the hero phase movement, to me, is not doubled by Hand of Gork.

As a real-life analog, here in the US you can make a right turn at a red light in certain circumstances -- essentially, you can treat the red light as a stop sign. However, the red light is not a stop sign; it merely permits some of the same behaviors.

In short, I think you can move 5 in the hero phase and 10 in the movement phase. That said, I've not seen the actual text of the abilities here.

[amysrevenge]

That's how I read it - it's clearly not written as "until your next Hero phase" like many other effects, it's "next movement phase".  So just once, which could be immediately with a Kunnin Rukk free move.