Rules question!

[Greven]

So what happens if i field a unit of spirit hosts and use the Blood Feast command ability from the Vampire Lord?

Models make an extra attack with EACH of their melee weapons until your next hero phase.

How many attacks do they get?

[deynon]

Simply each spirit host base does 7A instead of 6 A

[mmimzie]

Mathematically the VLoZD is a stronger buff for them as its effectively +4 attacks per guy. 

[deynon]

11 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Mathematically the VLoZD is a stronger buff for them as its effectively +4 attacks per guy. 

It's not the same. Reroll to hit is great, and generally it's better than adding attacks but it doesn't mean than it's comparable with more attacks. If you calculate as a statistiic on 6 dice you should reroll only 4 gaining another 1 to hit maybe. With one more attack is about the same, but it's more suitable to gain more hits than the reroll.

In the case of the spirit hosts there is not much difference beween rerolling and adding +1A each base.

Anyway doesn't exist onli the VLoZD, I know people whose play free battles but not using points so other heros other than VLoZD have to be avalaible, moreover if not concentrated on the field.

[mmimzie]

Deyon reroll to hit is another way of saying "+as many attacks as you would miss" In the case of the spirit host it's +4 attacks. So now .i gotta wip out my math hammer

 

Distributive property of multiplication: For the followly note 1/6 twice represents your chance to hit on a +5 but i'm factoring out the mortal wounds)

+4 attacks is (6+4attacks) *1/6 chance to mortal would= 1.66 mortal wounds

                  (6+4attacks)*1/6 to hit normaly*1/2 chance to wound= .833 normal

 

Reroll to hit:

is 6 attacks *1/6 to hit + (6*4/6) attack that missed 1/6= 1.66 mortal wounds

           6 attacks *1/6 to hit*1/2 to wound + (6*4/6) attack that missed 1/6 *1/2 to wound= .833 normal

 

As you can see statistically rerolling to hit on spirits is the same as +4 attacks. Because that's just how it works. Now the difference is that +4 attacks has a higher standard deviation. Meaning that you can shift up and down more dramatically. Where you could potentially do 10 mortal wounds from one guy. But you also have a much more likely bottom as even if you roll poorly with the reroll you end up throwing 12 dice instead of the 10.

[deynon]

6 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Deyon reroll to hit is another way of saying "+as many attacks as you would miss" In the case of the spirit host it's +4 attacks. So now .i gotta wip out my math hammer

 

Distributive property of multiplication: For the followly note 1/6 twice represents your chance to hit on a +5 but i'm factoring out the mortal wounds)

+4 attacks is (6+4attacks) *1/6 chance to mortal would= 1.66 mortal wounds

                  (6+4attacks)*1/6 to hit normaly*1/2 chance to wound= .833 normal

 

Reroll to hit:

is 6 attacks *1/6 to hit + (6*4/6) attack that missed 1/6= 1.66 mortal wounds

           6 attacks *1/6 to hit*1/2 to wound + (6*4/6) attack that missed 1/6 *1/2 to wound= .833 normal

 

As you can see statistically rerolling to hit on spirits is the same as +4 attacks. Because that's just how it works. Now the difference is that +4 attacks has a higher standard deviation. Meaning that you can shift up and down more dramatically. Where you could potentially do 10 mortal wounds from one guy. But you also have a much more likely bottom as even if you roll poorly with the reroll you end up throwing 12 dice instead of the 10.

You miscalculated. If you consider to cause themortal wound you can't then use that attack also to consider normal attacks. Morevoer it's not the same anyway.

Those +4A have the same result as the rerolling cause it's the same amount of dice as consideration, but out of it it's not it.

Rerolling and more A are similar only based on statistic, but are far from reality. as I said. 

Morover the consideration about rerolling and number of A change based on the number to hit, it's not an universal rule. For example on a 6+ to hitis much better the rerolling than having more attacks, instead on a 3+ is true the opposite.

 

Moreover from where comes those +4 A? I thought you referred it was considering the rerolling, but you seem to put it differently.

The VL power add only +1A each base, so if you want to calculate the base results you shoult consider 7A vs 6A rerolled. 

[mmimzie]

The reason why i said it's 4 attacks it to show its 4 times better than the VL buff for increase in damage.

You can consider the normal attack damage as it's 5+ to hit. WHich is a 2/6th chance to hit. however on 6's you mortal would so 1/6th of your hits are mortal wounds, and 1/6th hit normally. Hints the broken up calculations.

 

As far as what's closer to reality. The reroll is closer because you end up rolling more dice if you roll terrible the first time.

 

ALso yes reroll to hit does change based on your to hit chance. That's what i said. THe worse your to hit roll the better reroll to hit is. SPirit host have a high number of attacks and a low chance to hit. Making reroll to hit very powerful. Here's what i said:

12 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Deyon reroll to hit is another way of saying "+as many attacks as you would miss" In the case of the spirit host it's +4 attacks. So now .i gotta wip out my math hammer

 

 

 

[deynon]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

The reason why i said it's 4 attacks it to show its 4 times better than the VL buff for increase in damage.

You can consider the normal attack damage as it's 5+ to hit. WHich is a 2/6th chance to hit. however on 6's you mortal would so 1/6th of your hits are mortal wounds, and 1/6th hit normally. Hints the broken up calculations.

 

As far as what's closer to reality. The reroll is closer because you end up rolling more dice if you roll terrible the first time.

 

ALso yes reroll to hit does change based on your to hit chance. That's what i said. THe worse your to hit roll the better reroll to hit is. SPirit host have a high number of attacks and a low chance to hit. Making reroll to hit very powerful. Here's what i said:

 

you made z mistake in the math so. Cause the mortal wound it's between the attacks those hit, not asude them. And they're not 4A more anyway, it'x compaable inly based on statistic and even so it's not the same.

if ypu start to use "if" you have to consider zll the different scenarios not only the favourable ones.

Anyway it doesn't mean thatthe choice on the VLoDZ is alwayaès avalaible and it's not anyway the answer to the question .

[mmimzie]

I think VLoZD is only occationaly the right choice, but in the case of the spirit host it's always the right choice.

Also as i'm having a tough time understanding you i think your making a mistake here. The mortal wounds stop that attack from continuing as normal. If you roll a 6 to hit your done. You don't roll to wound after you roll a 6.

[Mr.Moe]

Don't forget Variance in your discussion:

Rerolls will compensate negative variance (rolling no hits, rendering bonus attacks useless (or less effective at least)) while bonus attacks will compensate positive variance (rolling all hits, rending rerolls useless). So in that case I always prefer to compensate for negative variance since you still do damage if you roll all hits even when your rerolls have no value in that case.

[deynon]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

I think VLoZD is only occationaly the right choice, but in the case of the spirit host it's always the right choice.

Also as i'm having a tough time understanding you i think your making a mistake here. The mortal wounds stop that attack from continuing as normal. If you roll a 6 to hit your done. You don't roll to wound after you roll a 6.

It's the right choice supposed it's avalaible near the spirit host. But anyway it was not the question asked.

Cause it I say you overlooked. It's true that it causes a wond, but it's between the wounds you calculate, so it you have to split the count between nomal and mortal wounds, but in case you count the probability it doesn't change the amount of hits you gain.

If you analyze the the statistic completely anyway your report is still missing a lot and so the deduction related to it cause you have to consider the varius scenarious, not only the medium one, and then create a curve of probability. 

To give you a simple practice example I know guys those not even need the reroll and can obtain almost all the hits on the first attempt and even 3-4 hit with 6 asa result. If I try the same 6 attacks maybe are not even enough to hit a single time^^

But if you want to know really the damage ability of the units, statistically talking what you have done is quite aproximative, nothing bad in it, but it's useful in case of immediate game, if used to calculate the results with calm you have to analyze much more and more detailed..

 

13 minutes ago, Mr.Moe said:

Don't forget Variance in your discussion:

Rerolls will compensate negative variance (rolling no hits, rendering bonus attacks useless (or less effective at least)) while bonus attacks will compensate positive variance (rolling all hits, rending rerolls useless). So in that case I always prefer to compensate for negative variance since you still do damage if you roll all hits even when your rerolls have no value in that case.

I never said it's a bad thing, simply that is not necessarily the best one. Anyway if you think that I have been able to hit 1 time on 40 roll on 3+ with rerolls and miss a 3+ reroll to wound... (and it's not so unusual to me...changing dice are not useful about, yet tried^^) 

The deviation you talk about anyway can be calculated and has to be to. And cause it I say the previous analysis is missing a lot.

[Justinian]

10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I think VLoZD is only occationaly the right choice, but in the case of the spirit host it's always the right choice.

Also as i'm having a tough time understanding you i think your making a mistake here. The mortal wounds stop that attack from continuing as normal. If you roll a 6 to hit your done. You don't roll to wound after you roll a 6.

Settra also works well with Spirit Hosts and his buff being a bubble means you can have multiple units rather than just one big unit.