Nico Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 So I've been trying to think of a credible Nagash list for a 2000 point game and I'm struggling. I don't think the old Nagash plus Neferata combo is viable any more (without double casting due to the rule of one) and without the summoning pool. Morghasts are 20% more expensive than in SCGT, which is fatal as far as I'm concerned. Thus far, I've though about combining Nagash with a Ghoul Patrol formation, just to get some bodies on the table and allow for an alpha strike to hold up the enemy; and about having a generic hero as General to give Nagash the 5+ ward save. Any ideas welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I'm surprised that it's that difficult to make a nagash competitive list (no offense intended). On the one hand yes, summoning is not going to auto win games, but it does give you plentiful tactical options if you play it that you can choose what you summon at the time of summoning. I'd probably not focus on nagash for his casting, instead look at his sheer damage output and resistance to both standard and mortal wound damage. He's probably the toughest of the 600+ pointers. In terms of death, there are plenty of well priced units which take advantage of the healing abilities available both through spells and through standard bearers. I have to look a little more closely at the points efficiency but I'd be surprised if units of morghasts can't be made to work if you are healing wounds and using their speed to full effect. They make a nice summoned unit to place 9" away and use the 3d6 charge. Just some thoughts, I wish you plenty of luck! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Yeah I think Nagash is just too expensive for 2000pt games now and with the rules of one will remain so until they give us a lore of death or lore of vampires. There are just not enough spells for Nagash and the benefits of summoning are just not enough. He is still very powerful in melee but you basically have to tack him on to your 1000pts list and use the extra 100pts to buy whichever battleline you go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I think he could work fine in a 2k point list. He's quite vulnerable as many units can still still take him out in one turn if you let them. The double summoning lets you summon full strength units like skels and zombies. Zombies need the 5+ deathless minion, but skels don't and benefit from the rerolling of 1 on thier armor save. The rerolling 1's do about the same for both the skels and zombies, but either way I'd definitely give the nod to skels. i'd take 3 blocks of 40 (maybe), and summon some skel Knights. Summon the skel Knights to make a protective wall, and summon the Skel Warriors behind them. Then charge from behind your knight wall with the skels and go ham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 Quote i'd take 3 blocks of 40 (maybe), and summon some skel Knights. Summon the skel Knights to make a protective wall, and summon the Skel Warriors behind them. Then charge from behind your knight wall with the skels and go ham. Other than fulfilling the Battleline requirement, Skeletons aren't going to do much. If you summon them, then they will need a 9 to make a charge. I'd take the ghoul patrol over them. Small units of Skeleton Knights are junk (assuming not using Tomb King buffs which would not fit in the list here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 1 x Nagash (1) 900 1 x Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror (1) 220 1 x Necrosphinx 400 2 x Ushabti (6) 240 1 x Zombies (10) 60 1 x Zombies (10) 60 1 x Skeleton Horsemen (5) 100 1980 This is my best so far. The Ushabti and Necrosphinx give Nagash the ability to cast their healing spells. It's pretty rough. The Battleline are just there because they are mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Have you played this list yet? I really think list writing is hard in AoS, and that's a good thing because until you see how the army works in a game against a variety of threats, you can't theoryhammer your way out. It may seem that battle line units are not worth their points, but honestly play the game against the lists that are fast or chaff heavy and you'll know why. Especially when you bring objectives in. Nagash is easily worth his points when playing a star drake or allarielle. The ability to knock them out in one punch is amazing, and his resistance to mortal wounds makes him a very tough rock to shift. Don't feel like you need to build your entire list to healing him. Take death units which benefit from his big distraction factor for instance. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I think he could work fine in a 2k point list. He's quite vulnerable as many units can still still take him out in one turn if you let them. The double summoning lets you summon full strength units like skels and zombies. Zombies need the 5+ deathless minion, but skels don't and benefit from the rerolling of 1 on thier armor save. The rerolling 1's do about the same for both the skels and zombies, but either way I'd definitely give the nod to skels. i'd take 3 blocks of 40 (maybe), and summon some skel Knights. Summon the skel Knights to make a protective wall, and summon the Skel Warriors behind them. Then charge from behind your knight wall with the skels and go ham. Just curious, how many units in the game can kill him in a turn? He's 16 wounds, 3+ save which he can easily set to 2+ with MS, and a 4+ ward save? Anything that can do that is going to be very expensive and have its own vulnerabilities? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 4 hours ago, jamierk said: Just curious, how many units in the game can kill him in a turn? He's 16 wounds, 3+ save which he can easily set to 2+ with MS, and a 4+ ward save? Anything that can do that is going to be very expensive and have its own vulnerabilities? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk He';s vulnerable as to take advantage of him your using the summoning heavily. Which you can't really do every time in the first turn. SO if he dies he's holding onto more than just his 900 points price tag. Not every summoned unit is really worth the summon. You'd want a tank unit to summon "hex wraiths, zombie dogs, swarm bats, something" Anything to protect your hammer unit. You'll need a hammer unit. Something like skeletons or grave guard. Plus maybe some harbingers to assassins. So your only summoning 3 of them on your first turn. Odds are your gonna have some points left over to summon later. To get to the point of it: I know a buffed block of zombies with half coverage can take him in a turn (done it it's depressingly unfluff stuff here). Squigs could do it with the same cost and effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 For sure, and i would say to run him competitively unless there were reasons due to scenario, i wouldn't be keeping too many points off the board for summoning unless i could protect him. But think about it, squigs, zombies whatever cheap unit you are running in super high unit sizes to force enough saves to kill him have their own vulnerabilities. They are slow, take up ALOT of room and can be diverted using other tactics. I am not sure how buffed zombies could get through 16W worth of 2+ 4++ without ALOT of zombies, but i suppose it could happen. Just remember there are plenty of counters to that, not the least of which is how you position and deploy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 It's not a 4+ ward save. That only works on mortal wounds. It's a 3+ save rerolling ones with a 6+ ward - Army Trait - (if he is a general) or a 3+ save and a 5+ ward if he's not the general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 I'm not even using him for the summoning as for all units bar Harbingers, that's just leaving a unit in limbo unless you win a double turn or roll a 9 on the charge (it's not like Seraphon who can summon strong shooting units). I gather you can summon the battleline units right (and them still count as battleline)? That would be vaguely useful for projecting onto objectives or forming speed bumps. To clarify, the healing spells I referred to are spells that heal the units (Ushabti and Necrosphinx) - this uses up some of the 8 spells and keeps stuff alive. The default anti-Nagash strategy is to ignore him and shred scoring units - so this should help mitigate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 If people are ignoring nagash, push him straight towards where your opponent wants to control? He has plenty of speed and board control? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 @Nico You may not summon your battleline it must deployed. Stuff you summon do not go toward your list building restrictions. So you can summon 20 behomots (points allowing) and be fine. You can summon 20 banshees as well and not mess up your leader unit requirements. This also means you can't summon your battleline and count as good. The horde units in this game, with points are pretty silly strong for thier point. WARNING MATH HAMMER INCOMING: @jamierk So every unit in the game does some where from .20 to .37 damage damage per 10 points against a ~5 32mm model face. This damage is averaged damage across every units highest potential and lowest potential damage. They also factored in things like saves/ move speed/ etc. Into the calculation. The math works out pretty good as if you have most units fight each other at even points, both units striking at exactly the same time. Lots of the jack of all trade units kill each other. What does this mean??? 900 points of most things can kill 900 points of nagash, but wait there is more to the math here. The damage is averaged through out all permutations of thier damage. So, knights are WAAAAAAY more cost effective on the charge, and units of zombies are WAAAAAAY more cost effective at full strength. So you really only need about 600 points of anything with heavily swinging damage profiles to take nagash. <Math hammer end> But wait, there is more.... This also doesn't take into account buffs, that on some of these units can make thier cost effectiveness sky rocket. To the point where 360 points of zombies could take out nagash in 1 turn with out getting full coverage. Also as stated you only get that 4++ against mortals not everything. Really with deathless minion it's a 2+ 6++. Everything dies in AoS. Now also i'm not saying you need to be shaking in your boots every time you move nagash. You just need to know he's no god, he's merely a supreme lord. Being only a supreme lord he can get rekt. This is important as to play him in a way that i think would be worth bringing him. I think you'd want to do mass summoning. throwing 4 morghast harbingers is pretty scary, even if they aren't the most cost effective killers they can take out linch pin heros for free more or less. Only nagash can do this. Additionally, setting up full size units on low casting values are also the things only nagash can bring to the table. With out the summoning Nagash i think will be hard pressed taking out 900 points of enemy models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 Quote Also as stated you only get that 4++ against mortals not everything. Really with deathless minion it's a 2+ 6++. Everything dies in AoS. Now also i'm not saying you need to be shaking in your boots every time you move nagash. You just need to know he's no god, he's merely a supreme lord. Being only a supreme lord he can get rekt. My bigger concern is actually lacking the killing power to take out the enemy. Nagash isn't that fast and the enemy may move away from him, retreat or throw chaff in front of him. I think what you say about summoning and battleline units is correct, which means that Zombies or Skeletons as Battleline are sunk points in a Nagash list as they are too slow to help him. Skeleton Chariots or Skeleton Horsemen could be an option. In the absence of double casting, you cannot have him and Mannfred firing off 2 Winds of Death and 2 Arcane Bolts each turn for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamierk Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I don't disagree with the math hammer argument and I know I could easily kill nagash with 600 points worth of pretty much anything, IF and ONLY if I could get them all to be in range to attack at the time when it matters. My point is that when you play AoS enough, you can find plenty of ways to prevent this from happening. The game is as much based on movement and tactics as it is about maths and statistics. But that's just my experience. The reason I like Nagash over some of the other 600 point big guys is his mortal wound save and potential for healing. Allarielle for instance could go down to a bunch of mortal wounds quick smart before she can heal herself. Same with the star drake. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 55 minutes ago, jamierk said: I don't disagree with the math hammer argument and I know I could easily kill nagash with 600 points worth of pretty much anything, IF and ONLY if I could get them all to be in range to attack at the time when it matters. My point is that when you play AoS enough, you can find plenty of ways to prevent this from happening. The game is as much based on movement and tactics as it is about maths and statistics. But that's just my experience. The reason I like Nagash over some of the other 600 point big guys is his mortal wound save and potential for healing. Allarielle for instance could go down to a bunch of mortal wounds quick smart before she can heal herself. Same with the star drake. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Nah that's the thing you don't need that many around his big fat base. Sure he's tanky and many things will struggle to take him out, but he is still vulnerable enough and can't move through the map with impunity which is pretty much my point. You need other stuff to keep him safe. So you can jsut throw all your summoning at the enemy, as suprize things can potential rekt an undefended negash. For instance a few wood elf mages can lock him out of casting for a turn, and then other models could come in and damage him while his mystic shield is down. ETC. I'm not saying everything for 600s can kill him but 600 points can get him if you just throw him around. The problem here is that you have 900 points you need to protect with something, as tactics and movement as you've said is not a 1 model afair, but you want the other 1.1k of your list to be making a difference, and here in lies the nagash difficulty. Is this more clear??? This is why i say battle line are the best. Battle line units while saddly you'll be double dipping, can stretch accross the board doing the double duty of protecting negash, while aslo bring the full force of thier buffed selves into combat. Trying to get charges with mounted units are neat, but they aren't strong enough to do that explosive damage that is required to get good battle shocks out of enemy units. Additionally, the battle shocks your skels can possible take will be negated by negash's command ability. I'd also take negash's command ability as his works best to keep him alive. rerolling a 1's a 2+ or 3+ is just super silly, and about as good as the ruler of the night or otherwise would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Hmmmm - looking at the FAQ - you can take Nagash, 3 units of Archai as Battleline and then summon on whatever and this would (a) satisfy Battleline; and (b) unlock a theoretical Deathlords allegiance pack. Interesting. This would give you 380 points to summon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 @Nico Sounds about right Nico. I hope they come out with a death mages alliegence. How sexy would that be just deploy a few Necronns mangers and. Mortis engine or two. Then summon the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead4Life Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 On July 23, 2016 at 4:05 AM, Nico said: Hmmmm - looking at the FAQ - you can take Nagash, 3 units of Archai as Battleline and then summon on whatever and this would (a) satisfy Battleline; and (b) unlock a theoretical Deathlords allegiance pack. Interesting. This would give you 380 points to summon. Hey, prospective player here! This is is actually something I was curious about and could t hash out on my own. Say my list is that as above, Nagash and three units of Mortarchs, and the 380 left over for summoning (presuming 2000 points of course). Would the summoned units have to come from Deathlords as well to maintain the Mortarchs as Battleline? Or could I summon, say, nothing but Dire Wolves, which are not in Deathlords? I like the idea of Nagash and his bodyguard running around smashing stuff, but I also just aquired 30 Dire Wolves and would like to use them. If I don't have to spam zombies for Battleline I'd be a happy camper! As for Nagash in 2000 points, my initial idea was to have him, three units of Mortarchs (probably two being Archai, one Harbingers) and Arkhan the Black. A super-elite, fast army that could very conceivably achieve Assassinate in every game (though I am not sure if that is in use for tournaments?). But yeah, I'm tired, disjointed and losing my train of thought. Oh, and hello, everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Quote Say my list is that as above, Nagash and three units of Mortarchs, and the 380 left over for summoning (presuming 2000 points of course). Would the summoned units have to come from Deathlords as well to maintain the Mortarchs as Battleline? Or could I summon, say, nothing but Dire Wolves, which are not in Deathlords? No - the whole point is that the reinforcement points can break allegiance requirements etc.. Yes - you could summon the Dire Wolves. See the FAQ for the GH. This actually makes fluff-sense for a Deathlords army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead4Life Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Oh happy day! I did look at the FAQ but I guess I missed it first time around. Thanks! EDIT: Ah, yes, I see now. The first time I read it my mind just latched on to the Heroes and Behemoths bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Here's my Mannfred list: 1 x Mannfred (1) 460 1 x Morghast Archai (2) 240 1 x Morghast Harbingers (2) 240 1 x Morghast Harbingers (2) 240 1180 Reinforcements 1 x Cairn Wraith (1) 60 Sword of Unholy Power 1 x Spirit Hosts (3) 120 1 x Spirit Hosts (3) 120 1 x Spirit Hosts (3) 120 1 x Mourngul (1) 400 820 I'm planning to put the artefact on a hero in my reinforcements. That doesn't seem to be forbidden. Manderp summons the Cairn Wraith which uses the Sword of Unholy Power to summon the Mourngul. Manderp summons some spirit hosts each turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 you don't have to pre plan your reinforcements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Jones Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 @Nico what is this deathlords battalion u speak of? Have I missed it somewhere? How does it allow archai to be battle line ( apologies for not knowing I am very new to AoS). Absolutely love your list, great ideas. One thought I have is in the 6 new scenarios, some of them require you to have more models to claim objectives. My thoughts here are that the archai and spirit hosts will rarely outnumber to claim an objective. My thoughts were to use Nagash to summon 40 zombies, job done. Also to have reinforcements of skellies and ghouls to hand in case I don't get my initial summoning spell off... Have you considered this? I think Arkhans extra 6" range will be great in the new scenarios. So many choices ? one last thing... Can a summoned unit claim straight away? I can't see why not but I miss things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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