Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Norbie]

Hello. I recently decided I want to get into AoS after seeing the community at my lfgs growing. I played fantasy for a decade before leaving several years ago when things got real bad, and I would take a peek once in a while to see what's going on. 

Anyways, I went ahead and bought the Sylvaneth get started box along with a unit of tree-revanents and a unit if kurnoth hunters. I choose them because their models are amazing and I was instantly drawn to them.

Being a competitive minded gamer I have been doing some research. I have read this entire thread and listened to a few podcasts. I believe it was the latest episode of facehammer that has me worried. They talked about how they are helping to play test for the gh2 and made a comment about how the kurnoth are severely undercosted. It has also been mentioned here they will be going up in pts cost. I understand they are probably too good for what they cost but I'm worried they will go overboard and make them something like 240. This army isn't exactly filled with choices. I'm just glad I didn't order the rest of what I wanted before coming to this conclusion.  What will we field if they go up drastically?  

Does anyone know when the gh2 will be coming out, roughly? I've heard April, and I've also heard July. I was super excited to hey get into this game but that spark has dwindled. The reason I chose sylvaneth was the tree lords and kurnoth and now it's looking like they might costed too high to be competitive with some of the stuff I've been seeing which is hordes of dudes. So losing models seems worrisome.

[DantePQ]

Yup, they problem with changing Kurnoth Hunters point value is that there is little choice to swap them for something, unless they make other choices cheaper like TreeRevenants and Spite Revenants at 80pts. Becasue Sylvaneth doesn't have much choice - there is a lot of leaders but there is limit to them. Also there are characters are Drycha who is a really expensive and then Branchwraith isn't playable 

Battlelines are fine , but then there're only Kurnoth Hunters, Spite Revenants and Treelord but out of them only Kurnoth Hunters are playable. I guess it depends how much their cost will go up. 200 pts is still fine, but 220-240 will be much too much considering Kurnoth Hunters within Sylvaneth army. Maybe reasonable will be to make Greatsword Kurnoth Kunters - 180, Scythes - 200 and Bows 220 but it would be still pretty bad. 

[Mirage8112]

I'm going to say that Kurnoth hunters points won't change in the next handbook. They are good, but people were overreacting because Sylvaneth were one of the first "new" style battletomes and there wasn't anything in the game like hunters. The two new battletomes (disciples of tz. And stormcast) both have units of similar utility and power level, both at about 160pts.

I might expect a few other armies will see a points decrease ala fyreslayers, but don't worry too much about the "omg plz nerf" talk. Hunters are pointed in line with the new battletomes and everything else just needs to catch up.


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[Norbie]

34 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I'm going to say that Kurnoth hunters points won't change in the next handbook. They are good, but people were overreacting because Sylvaneth were one of the first "new" style battletomes and there wasn't anything in the game like hunters. The two new battletomes (disciples of tz. And stormcast) both have units of similar utility and power level, both at about 160pts.

I might expect a few other armies will see a points decrease ala fyreslayers, but don't worry too much about the "omg plz nerf" talk. Hunters are pointed in line with the new battletomes and everything else just needs to catch up.


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I wish that was the case but if you listen to the podcast I mentioned they talk about helping to play test the new gh and they specifically mention a few units that are under costed.  Kurnoth hunters, necropolis knights and judicators. Yes even judicators, though they just got a new book. 

Just looking at the greatbow hunters they seem very dicy at 4+ to hit and no way to increase it. I do believe internal synergies should be a factor in the cost of a unit.

[Norbie]

Sorry, the podcast that I listened to was HeelanHammer not facehammer. Apologize for that

[DantePQ]

I think that Kurnoth Hunters could have points increased but it depends how much - 200 they are stil good, but more is a dicey spot move with how little units Sylvaneth has unless they tweak other units like making Spite Revenants - 75-80 pts to encourge using them. 

Because new Sylvaneth units are just no coming anytime soon. 

[Mirage8112]

55 minutes ago, Norbie said:

I wish that was the case but if you listen to the podcast I mentioned they talk about helping to play test the new gh and they specifically mention a few units that are under costed.  Kurnoth hunters, necropolis knights and judicators. Yes even judicators, though they just got a new book. 

Just looking at the greatbow hunters they seem very dicy at 4+ to hit and no way to increase it. I do believe internal synergies should be a factor in the cost of a unit.

Oh I know people have talked about it. Originally when @scrubyandwells @Nico @Forestreveries and I did our "Let's chat Sylvaneth" podcast, we all agreed that Hunters could use a point bump to bring them in line with the meta at the time. But with the new armies they're released since then, I've changed my mind (I don't know how the other guys feel). I know some people still feel Hunters are underpriced, but looking at army design in the other battletomes it's pretty clear that the Hunters are costed in line with other units of an equivalent power level (in the new battletomes).  

Personally, I think players who are calling for a points increase are looking at the unit in wrong way. I'm fairly confident that the Sylvaneth army is designed to be played with Hunters; at least 2-3 units. We don't really have any other units that fill that hammer role in the same way (unlike Stormcast who have loads of choices). People think we're spamming hunters because their broken, when in truth we're spamming hunters because they really are our only viable option for doing damage. 

Tomb kings saw a points increase specifically because they were "too dominant" in tournament play.  Fylerslayers saw a points decrease for the opposite reason. I would note that even with hunters pointed at 180pts for three, we haven't been overwhelmingly dominating the tournament circuit. Yes, we place at top tables, but it's not like the top 5 armies are all Sylvaneth.

I think the designers know this, or at least it's pretty apparent by the points the new battletomes. If the generals handbook is indeed coming out later this year as rumors suggest, why would they keep the same relative point structure in battletomes like disciples of Tzneetch? Especially when they have the points printed in the back of the battletome itself. Tzaangor Skyfyres have nearly the same range, can fly, have 1 less wound and do d3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. They are 160 pts and are roughly equivalent power-level wise. If GW was planning point increase for hunters I would have expect Skyfyres to be a bit higher in cost. 
 

38 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I think that Kurnoth Hunters could have points increased but it depends how much - 200 they are stil good, but more is a dicey spot move with how little units Sylvaneth has unless they tweak other units like making Spite Revenants - 75-80 pts to encourge using them. 

Because new Sylvaneth units are just no coming anytime soon. 

Nico and I (and others) have discussed where hunters sit relative to other units in the game before. Decimators and protectors are 200 pts. Fulminators/Tempestors/Desolators are 220 and concussors are 280. No way hunters stand up to the dracoth brigade power-level wise. I'd also say Decimators are on par or slightly better than hunters, and that their slightly higher points cost is justified, considering stormcast have so many options to build synergy with other unit choices that Sylvaneth don't have. Hunters really sort of operate alone and don't receive a lot of help from other units (other than magic). 

GW is obviously taking player feedback into account, but they also are using hard data to justify their changes. I think players are just looking at the one unit in our army that's doing damage and thinking "I always get wrecked by hunters" and are looking at ways to take a unit or two off the table. Other armies have their damage spread out between 3-4 different types of units, so it isn't as noticeable. Sylvaneth do not need to be nerfed based on competitive performance, and a points increase to hunters would just be a flat out, army-wide nerf. I can't imagine Sylvaneth would do well in competitive play with 220-240 pts hunters; even 200 is a stretch considering models are sold in blocks of 3. 

I could be wrong of course. But I think it's more likely we'll see points decrease for other units/armies, rather than points increase for hunters. It just doesn't make sense considering everything else going on in the Meta at the moment. 

[DantePQ]

Yeah but what about points decrease of Spite-Revenants as they are pretty useless unless you're playing Dreadwood. Would 80 points be fair I think I'd use them in one 10 man unit, especially in armies with Drycha. 

[Mirage8112]

29 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Yeah but what about points decrease of Spite-Revenants as they are pretty useless unless you're playing Dreadwood. Would 80 points be fair I think I'd use them in one 10 man unit, especially in armies with Drycha. 

That's a matter of opinion. I use a unit of 5 occasionally and have found their battleshock ability to be quite brutal if use correctly. Just because people haven't figured out how to use them doesn't mean they aren't good or worth their points. 

[DantePQ]

But it's true that Spite Revenants aren't used in any competitive lists because there are better choice - Kurnoth Hunters. 

Let's say Kurnoth Hunter are changed to 200 and Spite Revenants to 80. Then I think 10 Spite Revenants would find a way into some lists instead of 3 Hunters. 

There is a reason why Spite Revenants aren't used :

- they cost too much compared to other Sylvaneth units

- Sylvaneth player will always choose Kurnoth Hunters over Spite Revenants, and in case he has 100-120pts to spare - taking 5 Tree-Revenants more or 10 dryads is much better choice. 

[Paul G]

I'd be hyped if Spite Revs became battleline, even if they don't reduce the points. What do people think about it?


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[Nico]

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I have read this entire thread 

Kudos! How long did it take? You survived to tell the tale.

[Nico]

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I guess it depends how much their cost will go up. 200 pts is still fine, but 220-240 will be much too much considering Kurnoth Hunters within Sylvaneth army. Maybe reasonable will be to make Greatsword Kurnoth Kunters - 180, Scythes - 200 and Bows 220 but it would be still pretty bad.

I'm hoping for no more than 200, or at least compensating cost reductions for Dryads, Tree Revenants and Spite Revenants. As has been expressed eloquently here and elsewhere (e.g. on the Scruby & Wells podcast), it's often preferable to add new counters (why isn't there a unit that is -2 or even -3 to hit with pew pew (irrespective of the phase) which isn't Plaguebearers or even a buff that you can put onto a unit); or fight fire with fire (e.g. Vanguard Raptors and Skyfires); rather than to hammer the good stuff.

 

[Nico]

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I'm going to say that Kurnoth hunters points won't change in the next handbook. They are good, but people were overreacting because Sylvaneth were one of the first "new" style battletomes and there wasn't anything in the game like hunters. The two new battletomes (disciples of tz. And stormcast) both have units of similar utility and power level, both at about 160pts. 

I might expect a few other armies will see a points decrease ala fyreslayers, but don't worry too much about the "omg plz nerf" talk. Hunters are pointed in line with the new battletomes and everything else just needs to catch up

That's a bold prediction. I completely agree with the logic, but we've already seen savage (up to 50%) swings to the cost of Necropolis Knights and Settra (and absurd swings like 300 for the VLoZD) inspired by Death haters. Frankly, any change of over 20% to a Warscroll makes me skeptical (which includes the 25% reduction to Vulkites). Granted - these are draft points, but that implies that some people were asking for changes of over 50%!

It would indeed be preferable to see small cost reductions to the weaker stuff rather than making the more expensive stuff not fit into 2,000 points. 

It's particularly challenging as most of the success that quote "Sylvaneth" have seen (e.g. two UK tournaments won) has been through Mixed Order armies using 1+ Hurricanums and various other Order units (Waywatcher Battleline for the win....); and indeed by very strong players. These aren't reflective of the power of the Kurnoth Hunters within an actual Sylvaneth list (i.e. one where the bargains - cheap Kurnoths, some cheap battalions are balanced by the expensive Battleline/basic troops/a genuine lack of options (particularly if Treekin are subject to Compendium Risk) and two overpriced named characters - Alarielle is heavily overcosted (although not as much as Nagash, Archaon and Gordrakk) and Durthu is slightly overcosted too).

If Steamhead (please - begging) come out of the ground/air with some horrendous hard counters to pew pew, then we might see better balance in a natural way.

 

[Nico]

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Oh I know people have talked about it. Originally when @scrubyandwells @Nico @Forestreveries and I did our "Let's chat Sylvaneth" podcast, we all agreed that Hunters could use a point bump to bring them in line with the meta at the time. But with the new armies they're released since then, I've changed my mind (I don't know how the other guys feel). I know some people still feel Hunters are underpriced, but looking at army design in the other battletomes it's pretty clear that the Hunters are costed in line with other units of an equivalent power level (in the new battletomes).  

Another point is that a surprisingly large number of people play the Kurnoth Hunter rules incorrectly, or play other rules incorrectly which makes them seem stronger than they really are (particularly the rerollable save, which you never get if you've just charged something this turn).

[Mirage8112]

19 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

But it's true that Spite Revenants aren't used in any competitive lists because there are better choice - Kurnoth Hunters. 

Let's say Kurnoth Hunter are changed to 200 and Spite Revenants to 80. Then I think 10 Spite Revenants would find a way into some lists instead of 3 Hunters. 

Dreadwood is built of 4 units of them. Even aside from Dreadwood, I just said I use spite revenants in my competitive lists. I've had very good success with them when used as a utility unit. 

 

23 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

There is a reason why Spite Revenants aren't used :

- they cost too much compared to other Sylvaneth units

Have you read the outcast battalions ability? It's brutal against low Bravery armies. It can almost single handedly destroy 3-4 units of Bravery 6 enemies in a single hero phase. They are arguably a better unit than Tree-rev (which I also like) and cost the same. 

 

25 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

There is a reason why Spite Revenants aren't used :

...

- Sylvaneth player will always choose Kurnoth Hunters over Spite Revenants, and in case he has 100-120pts to spare - taking 5 Tree-Revenants more or 10 dryads is much better choice. 

You're flat out wrong here, because I choose spites over a unit of hunters/treerev/dryads and have found them very effective for what they do. 

If you don't want to sue them, that's fine you don't have to. But don't pretend a unit isn't worth anybody using just because they don't fit your play style. 

[Nico]

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Personally, I think players who are calling for a points increase are looking at the unit in wrong way. I'm fairly confident that the Sylvaneth army is designed to be played with Hunters; at least 2-3 units. We don't really have any other units that fill that hammer role in the same way (unlike Stormcast who have loads of choices). People think we're spamming hunters because their broken, when in truth we're spamming hunters because they really are our only viable option for doing damage. 

They provide the only -2 rend which isn't on overcosted Durthu or overcosted Alarielle. Plenty of armies (notably other Sylvaneth armies) can laugh off -1 rend, so you really need a few can openers. Sylvaneth don't have explosive mortal wounds spam in the Letterbomb/Stormfiends, Gateway plus Bolt of Tzeentch sense - they only have the ability to chip away slowly with (what ends up being a lot of) mortal wounds - but this leaves them needing something to deal with tank units - aka Scythe Hunters. 

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I think the designers know this, or at least it's pretty apparent by the points the new battletomes. If the generals handbook is indeed coming out later this year as rumors suggest, why would they keep the same relative point structure in battletomes like disciples of Tzneetch? Especially when they have the points printed in the back of the battletome itself. Tzaangor Skyfyres have nearly the same range, can fly, have 1 less wound and do d3 mortal wounds on a roll of 6. They are 160 pts and are roughly equivalent power-level wise. If GW was planning point increase for hunters I would have expect Skyfyres to be a bit higher in cost. 

The DoT points structure does seem broadly similar (with one big caveat) in that there are bargains and then there are pricey things and usually you need to take some of both to build a viable list. Some battleline units seem a tad expensive, whereas the casters are undercosted (except the Curseling) and the Battalions are on the cheap side.  The big caveat is the cost of the Daemon units (not the heroes), some of which just seem brutally overcosted (Flamers are the chief culprit, but I'm worried about Exalted Flamers too).

I'm skeptical about Skyfires at the moment. I just don't think the damage output is good enough and the 24" range plus a lot of movement is a lot weaker than a 30" range (where you can stand outside Judicator's effective range of 29" for example). 

[Nico]

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Have you read the outcast battalions ability? It's brutal against low Bravery armies. It can almost single handedly destroy 3-4 units of Bravery 6 enemies in a single hero phase. They are arguably a better unit than Tree-rev (which I also like) and cost the same. 

I'm thinking about including one unit in a non-Dreadwood list. What concerns me is the rarity of low Bravery armies or perhaps it's that they aren't armies that Sylvaneth would struggle against (they are particularly good vs other Sylvaneth armies of course).

• Death are a problem for Sylvaneth and if you've committed to spite revenants in a fixed list event, then that's not ideal.
• Grot armies are invariably accompanied by the jolly Bravery 9 Stonelords and so on (i.e. the Grots are just there as a shield for a turn or too). Plus they are increasingly rare.
• Ironjawz we should be able to beat anyway unless they are commanded by Megaboss Krunk (who is too cunning for us).
• Bonesplitterz pretend to be low Bravery until you read their disgustingly broken banner rules. They also laugh off mortal wounds anyway with the obscenely low wounds per point of both Boyz and Arrer Boyz.
• DoT could potentially be susceptible as bravery of the Arcanites is low. However, the problem with that will be getting near enough to them if they just sit there and wait for our units to be in 18" range of their bunker.
• Stormcast - maybe? 
• Khorne Bloodbound - probably one of our best match ups anyway.
• Skaven - you could get the drop on some Stormfiends perhaps. Verminus and Eshin lists are rare these days though. I'm not even going to mention Pestilens.

I'm still pretty happy about them in the context of the Dreadwood Battalion (although it shouldn't have been indirectly nerfed).  

[Norbie]

I guess I'll just go ahead and order the rest of my army and whatever happens happens. 

These are the 2 lists I'm considering at the moment. The next tournament at the store is 1500. Let me know what you guys think.  The equipment and unit loadouts are not set yet.

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwych (100)

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
20 x Dryads (240)
10 x Dryads (120)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

 

Will the list with just the 1 TLA suffer in the three places of power? I was told it might by some of the locals but I fail to see how the other list with just a wych will fair that much better. Maybe they just don't want to face 5 hunter units. Any advise you guys can give me would be great.

For the first list I was thinking 1 scythe and 4 bows.  For the other 3 bows. I like the first list a lot because of how scary it is and the ridiculously amazing models. The second list intrigues me because of the healing and recursion.  I must admit I'm not a big fan of dryads although I can see the potential of a large unit in a wood with buffs.  

I'm very excited to start playing this game but still a but nervous investing my money and faith in GW. 

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

That's a bold prediction. I completely agree with the logic, but we've already seen savage (up to 50%) swings to the cost of Necropolis Knights and Settra (and absurd swings like 300 for the VLoZD) inspired by Death haters. Frankly, any change of over 20% to a Warscroll makes me skeptical (which includes the 25% reduction to Vulkites). Granted - these are draft points, but that implies that some people were asking for changes of over 50%!

Well, as I said above, the changes to TK and Fyreslayers was specifically because of their performance at events. Here's the official line from Warhammer community:

"We’re starting off with some amends to the points costs of Tomb Kings and Fyreslayers warscrolls. Some of these units, which we’ve seen be a little to dominant on the top tables of competitive events, have had their points increased, while others have had theirs reduced. (Great news for the sons of Grimnir – more Fyreslayers for your ur-gold!)"

Again their trying to balance based on performance. I wouldn't say that the Sylvaneth army with it's (frankly) limited choices falls int eh same category as TK. We have 3 (4 if you count treekin) units that aren't batteline, characters or heroes. TK have 12. It's pretty obvious they are trying to "diversify" choices for an army that is super dominate at top tables, but also has a lot of units that aren't being utilized. Sylvaneth fit in neither of those boxes. 

 

1 hour ago, Nico said:

I'm skeptical about Skyfires at the moment. I just don't think the damage output is good enough and the 24" range plus a lot of movement is a lot weaker than a 30" range (where you can stand outside Judicator's effective range of 29" for example). 

It's marginally weaker. But considering most ranged units in them game cap out at 18", 24" is well above average range (especially with the 16" fly move). I still see ALOT of uses for these guys and they also clock in a 20pts cheaper than hunters. 

 

53 minutes ago, Nico said:

 

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Have you read the outcast battalions ability? It's brutal against low Bravery armies. It can almost single handedly destroy 3-4 units of Bravery 6 enemies in a single hero phase. They are arguably a better unit than Tree-rev (which I also like) and cost the same. 

I'm thinking about including one unit in a non-Dreadwood list. What concerns me is the rarity of low Bravery armies or perhaps it's that they aren't armies that Sylvaneth would struggle against (they are particularly good vs other Sylvaneth armies of course).

• Death are a problem for Sylvaneth and if you've committed to spite revenants in a fixed list event, then that's not ideal.
• Grot armies are invariably accompanied by the jolly Bravery 9 Stonelords and so on (i.e. the Grots are just there as a shield for a turn or too). Plus they are increasingly rare.
• Ironjawz we should be able to beat anyway unless they are commanded by Megaboss Krunk (who is too cunning for us).
• Bonesplitterz pretend to be low Bravery until you read their disgustingly broken banner rules. They also laugh off mortal wounds anyway with the obscenely low wounds per point of both Boyz and Arrer Boyz.
• DoT could potentially be susceptible as bravery of the Arcanites is low. However, the problem with that will be getting near enough to them if they just sit there and wait for our units to be in 18" range of their bunker.
• Stormcast - maybe? 
• Khorne Bloodbound - probably one of our best match ups anyway.
• Skaven - you could get the drop on some Stormfiends perhaps. Verminus and Eshin lists are rare these days though. I'm not even going to mention Pestilens.

 

 

The outcast battalion by itself isn't ideal in death match-up. Although it's point cost is only 340 points there's plenty of ways to build a balanced list around it that can pick up the slack in that match-up. The same goes for grot armies. As to Bonesplitaz, their totems only work if they are in combat (basically) since the damage from the outcast battalion works in the hero phase and has an 8" range its pretty easy to put them in the woods, let the bonesplitaz set up for a next-turn charge, zap them with 2D6-5/6 in the hero phase, move back 5" in the movement phase, teleport some hunters in-between, root and watch them evaporate to battleshock thanks to "whispers in the dark". 

There are plenty of ways to use them, but they require set-up and planning. You can't just throw them at the enemy and "hope everything will turn out alright" like you can with hunters.



 

[Nico]

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"We’re starting off with some amends to the points costs of Tomb Kings and Fyreslayers warscrolls. Some of these units, which we’ve seen be a little to dominant on the top tables of competitive events, have had their points increased, while others have had theirs reduced. (Great news for the sons of Grimnir – more Fyreslayers for your ur-gold!)"

The biggest joke is that TK have still only won a handful of events in the UK and one of those was in the hands of the best player in the country. People notice them because they are rare.

The reality is that quite a few people just hate playing Death because they are boring to play against #NuNurgle #WardSave; and seem really overpowered if you don't bother to practise against them and work out their weaknesses. 200 for Necropolis Knights and 400 for Settra would have done the job (no change to the fat lump of lard that gives +1 to wound or the Catapult), everything above that was designed to ensure that they never came anywhere in the top half of the field at tournaments - mostly because they wouldn't be in lists at all.

[Nico]

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The outcast battalion by itself isn't ideal in death match-up. Although it's point cost is only 340 points there's plenty of ways to build a balanced list around it that can pick up the slack in that match-up. The same goes for grot armies. As to Bonesplitaz, their totems only work if they are in combat (basically) since the damage from the outcast battalion works in the hero phase and has an 8" range its pretty easy to put them in the woods, let the bonesplitaz set up for a next-turn charge, zap them with 2D6-5/6 in the hero phase, move back 5" in the movement phase, teleport some hunters in-between, root and watch them evaporate to battleshock thanks to "whispers in the dark". 

The unit(s) that matter will be 40 strong (or at least 30), so 80 wounds. Even if you somehow drop 20 wounds off them, that's only 10 models gone and they are on a cheery +3 to Bravery from having 30 models left. So Bravery 8 - Dice plus 2 with a reroll -

I have an irrational hatred of every single ability that involves doing something at short range in your hero phase (things like piling in and attacking during the hero phase) as it requires the unit to survive one or even two enemy turns inside that range after moving into range (unless you double turn them). My worry is always that it's often too late by then. These kinds of ability are better if you are playing defensively.

Have you tried a list which is Dreadwood with mass bow Hunters and token heroes just to drop a load of Wyldwoods in the way (using the limit them to 12" range ability)? I'm tempted to give it a go at the South London Legion. I can see that the Spite Revenants would be horrible if the enemy is having to come to them. What worries me is them sitting 9+ inches away in a Wyldwood and then dying en masse to a stiff breeze (as only a 4+ save even with cover). 
 

[Mirage8112]

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

The unit(s) that matter will be 40 strong (or at least 30), so 80 wounds. Even if you somehow drop 20 wounds off them, that's only 10 models gone and they are on a cheery +3 to Bravery from having 30 models left. So Bravery 8 - Dice plus 2 with a reroll -

The outcasts battalion does it main damage in the hero phase, so the extra bravery from unit size doesn't help for the battalion ability (bravery buffs from unit size only apply in the battleshock phase). With spites giving -1 bravery to units within 3" it would be bravery 7 plus 2 (so 9). They would roll 2 dice for battleshock and take the highest. Unless they roll double 1's they will still lose another 3-4 models. If they rolled an average 4 they would lose 5 models. 

 

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

I have an irrational hatred of every single ability that involves doing something at short range in your hero phase (things like piling in and attacking during the hero phase) as it requires the unit to survive one or even two enemy turns inside that range after moving into range (unless you double turn them). My worry is always that it's often too late by then. These kinds of ability are better if you are playing defensively.

lol. Well, 8" is pretty respectable, and the benefit of this battalion is you take 3 units and any unit within at 8" of at least 2 units of spites takes wounds. It's perfect if used in tandem with T-rev's to screen. 

Think about it. Spites in the woods with 5 t-rev's 7" out. T-rev's get charged, wiped out in a single turn. No bravery buffs for being within 3" of an enemy (here we're very glad t-rev's are squishy). now the enemy is in range to get owned during the upcoming hero phase. Again, it works surprisingly well. They think they're taking out a weak unit when the T-rev's are just baiting them for the battalion ability. (How's that for a stick of fried gold?)

 

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

Have you tried a list which is Dreadwood with mass bow Hunters and token heroes just to drop a load of Wyldwoods in the way (using the limit them to 12" range ability)? I'm tempted to give it a go at the South London Legion. I can see that the Spite Revenants would be horrible if the enemy is having to come to them. What worries me is them sitting 9+ inches away in a Wyldwood and then dying en masse to a stiff breeze (as only a 4+ save even with cover). 

It depends. I haven't had a chance to play test the variations on this list. Spites don't make for particularly appealing targets when you have a unit of 9 scythe hunters rolling around. They tend to get ignored because they're not perceived as a threat. Also the ability triggers when the enemy is within 8" of 2 units. That may sound like a handicap, but when you have 4 units of them, and enemy has to fully wipe out three separate units to prevent the battalion ability from working, that gets tough. Do they concentrate pew-pew on the spites and waste 2 turns of shooting with hunters bearing down on them? Or do they try to split fire, wound the spites and the hunters and have to face both as the game progresses? It's a tough choice to have to make, especially with the ambush ability forcing that choice early on. 

Close combat isn't really an issue. Like I said a T-rev bait trap is aces against CC threats (plus you have 3 units of them filling your battleline. You can easily "double bubble" wrap them which would even protect them from double turns. 

it's kind of an interesting list. You can play defensively with the spites holding objectives while you play aggressively with the hunters/allarielle. It's my thought most players will be forced to deal with the most present threat and if your concerned about mass bow fire (Kunning' Rukk) you can just use your hunters in ambush to take out their ranged firepower. 

And that 12" range ability would work too if you wanted to put your hunters somewhere else in their front line or if their bows are bubble wrapped and you can't get to them. 

[DantePQ]

If you are using Dreadwood Wargrove then yes they are pretty good but I'm thinking about using them in that list 

Gnarlroot/Housold 

Treeman Ancient - Oaken Armour,Gnarled Warrior,Regrowth,General 

Branchwych - Acorn of Ages, Verdant Blessing 

Drycha 

3x5 Tree Revenants 

10 Spite Revenants 

4x3 Kurnoth Hunters - great bows. 

 

 

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

If you are using Dreadwood Wargrove then yes they are pretty good but I'm thinking about using them in that list 

Gnarlroot/Housold 

Treeman Ancient - Oaken Armour,Gnarled Warrior,Regrowth,General 

Branchwych - Acorn of Ages, Verdant Blessing 

Drycha 

3x5 Tree Revenants 

10 Spite Revenants 

4x3 Kurnoth Hunters - great bows. 

 

 

Yeah, that's not a good list to put them in. They are a CC support unit and you have no real CC units to support. Drycha will get shot off the table before she gets anywhere and T-rev are not really effective for much other than screening/chaff. You also better hope you don't come across a beastclaw raider army, since they'll be up in your face before you can do anything to them. Your army has the resilience of wet tissue paper and they'll plow right through it.