Thoughts about Tzeentch under General's Handbook

[Terry Pike]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Judicators as Battleline for any Order army is just so unfair.

This is where a huge mistake was made. Judicators should be battleline in a Stormcast army, not in any Order army. They are easily one of the strongest battleline taxes in the game right now.

[daedalus81]

*sigh*

Fatesworn gives your heroes arcane bolt.  So, I get a free spell for my lord on daemonic mount, which frees up my casters for more important spells.  A global ward save for my anvils and -1 rend for every single model in the formation is well worth 120 points.

For my 55-60 models that's about 2 points a model to add rend.  Are you saying it's not worth that on top of the other bonuses?

It gets really exhausting to see everything labeled as terrible without a passing thought simply because it doesn't provide what it normally does under open play.

 

That aside Tzeentch daemons are really good at mortal wounds.  The casters are limited, because they need more spells to cast, which will be rememdied whenever the allegiance info comes out.

Locus of change, transmogrification, and warpflame are no joke.  

Your flamers should be in groups of 6 usually.  2-3 should at a unit - the goal is to score at least a wound on each and stack warpflame in as many places as possible.  They're really fast and exceedingly difficult to catch.

[daedalus81]

7 hours ago, Terry Pike said:

This is where a huge mistake was made. Judicators should be battleline in a Stormcast army, not in any Order army. They are easily one of the strongest battleline taxes in the game right now.

I feel like people are going to have a hard time holding objectives with archers that are 32 points each.

[Terry Pike]

13 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

*sigh*

our flamers should be in groups of 6 usually.  2-3 should at a unit - the goal is to score at least a wound on each and stack warpflame in as many places as possible.  They're really fast and exceedingly difficult to catch.

It gets really exhausting to see everything labeled as terrible without a passing thought simply because it doesn't provide what it normally does under open play.

Flamers are 400pts for 6 and are not at all hard to catch seeing as they are only range 18. I'd take 10 Judicators for 360pts any day. Yes flamers are ok for killing anything without a save. but for 200 points you can get a lot more firepower in the chaos list. Its not that they are terrible, its them being over costed in comparison to other shooting units.

Bare in mind I've been playing Daemons in AoS Tournaments for a year, I know what I'm talking about. So yes I have thought about units in this game a lot and given them more than a passing thought, not only that I actually have a lot of experience with them on the table in competitive games.

[Terry Pike]

31 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

I feel like people are going to have a hard time holding objectives with archers that are 32 points each.

Unit of 5 Judicators sitting on/near an objective in cover with a 3+ save is no joke. with 2 wounds each they aren't just killed with a stiff like Flamers

Flamers at 66 points each with a worse save are going to have an even tougher time holding an objective & you still have to pay for battleline on top of the Flamers cost, which is what makes Judicators so good in comparison.

[daedalus81]

Judicators have an effective range of 29" and flamers are 27".  Yes, flamers have to be closer, but they can also back peddle almost twice as quickly.  6 flamers have 18 shots.  10 judicators (assuming min max) have 8 skybolts and 2 shockbolts on primes.  Flamers can do 6 wounds to 4+ armor before warpflame.  Judicators do 5 wounds (8 * .666 * .666 * .666) + (2 * .833 * 3.5 * .666 * .666).  Against 3+ it's 4 versus 3.7.  Add 1 wound average for warpflame.     

The thought that only rend can damage high armor is nonsense.  Terminators die more often to weight of fire more than weapons than can go through it in 40K.

The biggest issue is judicators have 20 wounds and flamers 12.  With pre-measuring flamers should never be anywhere near where they can be hit unless you want them to be. 

They're not made to contest.  They're made to harass and hit big things.  They're a smaller footprint and so its easier to get all their shots in from a confined space.  They're serving two different roles.

I'm not doubting your experience.  I doubt the perception of their effectiveness.  If people don't want to use glass cannons that's fine.

[Terry Pike]

You wanna know whats even worse. 20 Savage Bow Orruks is 200 points for 40 wounds...

[Nico]

Quote

The thought that only rend can damage high armor is nonsense. 

Nothing has ever had a stronger impact on my thinking about the game than seeing an enormous Nurgle+Wrathmongers wrecking ball shatter against a Saurus Guard wall with Skink Priest backup. There are loads of units with rerollable saves or saves that improve against no rend.

[daedalus81]

So following previous logic they're better than judicators?

[daedalus81]

40 minutes ago, Nico said:

Nothing has ever had a stronger impact on my thinking about the game than seeing an enormous Nurgle+Wrathmongers wrecking ball shatter against a Saurus Guard wall with Skink Priest backup. There are loads of units with rerollable saves or saves that improve against no rend.

So someone brought a list that is focused and can fight really well and came up against it's hard counter?  Good.  Maybe he should have had something to shoot the skink.

Furthermore saurus ignore -1 rend, so...a larger number of no rend attacks are going to be a better return on your investment unless you have a pile of -2 sitting around.

[Terry Pike]

8 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

So following previous logic they're better than judicators?

Easily better than Judicators for cost per wound and potential shooting power. The only draw back they have is they are not Battleline. But seeing as Bonesplitterz have ridiculously cheap Battleline options this is easily slotted in to a list.

I used Flamers for a good 8 months or so in pretty much every list (mostly because I was restricted to the Daemon compendium to start with). But over time people got wise to how easy they are to kill, started bringing more armoured units or fast long charge units that can easily reach out and deal with them. With access to better and cheaper Grand Alliance Chaos shooting units Flamers have been moved to the "over-costed/inefficient/weak"section of list building for me and no longer have a space in a competitive list and will most likely remain there until Tzeentch get their own battle tome, if/when that happens.

At 200 points a unit I just can't justify a space for them. If they don't become cheaper or get better rules to reflect the points invested I fear I'll have 9 flamers sat in my army storage box for a long time, which is a shame as I actually like the models

As this thread has been sort of derailed by us both I'm happy to continue discussing optimal choices etc in a new thread or by messaging etc, but for now back on to the one of the original topics - Battleline troops in a Tzeentch army.

I would say with horrors being a bit of a weaker choice now due to the rule of 1, Tzeentch marked chaos warriors may be one of the better choices as they have a pretty good chance at staying a scoring unit long enough to actually capture/hold something.

[CyderPirate]

Daedalus, I think the rule of one is going to have more of an impact for casters that are able to use 2 spells a turn. They've usually got their own spell, but if you've only got one chance to cast any of the freebies, that extra spell is more likely to get wasted. I reckon its probably a reasonable sacrifice, though. It could've gotten pretty ridiculous if they went the other way with it. 

Flamers are pretty expensive, but its misleading to compare them to shooting units of other armies. For Chaos armies, flamers are one of only a few ways to get shooting into the army. That alone makes them worth a bit more. Especially when we've got resilience galore but limited ability to dish out the pain.

[Terry Pike]

19 minutes ago, CyderPirate said:

Flamers are pretty expensive, but its misleading to compare them to shooting units of other armies. For Chaos armies, flamers are one of only a few ways to get shooting into the army.

You need to look into Skaven if you want to compare shooting units in the Chaos faction. Stormfiends & Jezzails are some of the best shooting options we have available, not to mention Warp lightning Cannons and Plagueclaw Catapults. But if you are trying to be mono Tzeentch you are pretty much limited to flamers and soul grinders.

[Nico]

Jezzails synergise really well with the +1 to hit to a nearby unit command trait you can get and Daemonic Power.

Some people swear by Ratling Guns too, especially against 5+ or 6+ saves.

 

[BrAiKo]

Shouldn't be too much longer before battleline Kairic Acolytes at least, right? And hopefully something along the lines of "Change Warriors" / "Burning Changekings".

[CyderPirate]

27 minutes ago, Terry Pike said:

You need to look into Skaven if you want to compare shooting units in the Chaos faction. Stormfiends & Jezzails are some of the best shooting options we have available, not to mention Warp lightning Cannons and Plagueclaw Catapults. But if you are trying to be mono Tzeentch you are pretty much limited to flamers and soul grinders.

That's a good point. I am playing mono-Tzeentch, but I completely forgot that Skaven are included under the Chaos umbrella now. 

[daedalus81]

4 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

Daedalus, I think the rule of one is going to have more of an impact for casters that are able to use 2 spells a turn. They've usually got their own spell, but if you've only got one chance to cast any of the freebies, that extra spell is more likely to get wasted. I reckon its probably a reasonable sacrifice, though. It could've gotten pretty ridiculous if they went the other way with it. 

Flamers are pretty expensive, but its misleading to compare them to shooting units of other armies. For Chaos armies, flamers are one of only a few ways to get shooting into the army. That alone makes them worth a bit more. Especially when we've got resilience galore but limited ability to dish out the pain.

It does, for sure.  We're left with just summoning right now, which not everyone wants.  A better selection of spells will increase the usefulness of many casters.

The flamer comparisons were to illustrate that they have effectiveness.  Their role on the field is very different than other shooting units of course.

3 hours ago, BrAiKo said:

Shouldn't be too much longer before battleline Kairic Acolytes at least, right? And hopefully something along the lines of "Change Warriors" / "Burning Changekings".

You might be waiting until late fall on those.  Dwarfs are next and there has to be some 40K stuff interlaced in there.