Blade of the blood queen army

[Sception]

grave guard are in drastic need of increased durability.  They could use increased offensive punch too, but that isn't what holds them back.  Their armor save either needs to be, like, two whole points better, or else they need a second wound per model.  And if they stay at one wound each, their banner should be bringing back d6 models, not d3.

I mean, you could just make them cheaper instead, but I'd rather not see that.  I think their cost is about right for what they should be, they just don't quite live up to what they should be yet.  They're kind of like opposite-land black knights.  Black knights aren't really too fragile for their points.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to maybe bump their save up by one, but they're not in a terrible place as it is, but they're woefully lacking in offensive punch.  They hit like wet noodles, and that's on the charge.

Double or more the offensive punch of black knights, leaving their defense around the same, for about the same number of points, and they'd be about right.  Where as grave guard don't have terrible offense, but they need double the defense at the current points to work as the elite skeletal infantry they're supposed to be.

Until then, they're great looking models, but largely duds on the tabletop.

[AverageBoss]

If Grave Guard go to 2 wounds, Black Knights should go to 3. If Grave Guard get better armor, Black Knights should at least match. Black Knights should do Grave Guard damage base, with a 2" reach, and a bonus on the charge.

[Sception]

I don't really feel black knights need to be tougher than grave guard.  Faster is enough to set them apart.  I wouldn't object to making them tougher, but durability isn't what's holding them back.  If you make them stronger and tougher, their price might need to go up.

[AverageBoss]

I am thinking purely mechanically. They should be mounted Grave Guard, so should have the same armor. And pretty consistently in AoS mounted troops have more wounds than their on foot counterparts. As long as they are worth their points in the end, I would be fine with an increase. Though the closest cavalry unit I can think of in points cost is Goregruntas, and they are pretty much twice as good for only 20 more points.

[stratigo]

if you make black knights too much better they're just blood knights.

[AverageBoss]

10 minutes ago, stratigo said:

if you make black knights too much better they're just blood knights.

Blood Knights should be much better than they are anyways. Tempestors and Fulminators absolutely smoke them for less points.

[Sception]

Black knights and blood knights are also units in different subfactions.  It's not the end of the world if they're mechanically similar. 

[someone2040]

I think Grave Guard have a place as a smaller more elite unit. They're perhaps a smidge overpriced, and I think either 5 for 70 or 10 for 150 would be suitable as they feel pretty on par with Freeguild Greatswords.

I don't really think they deserve a statline change though. They've already got a pretty 'elite infantry' statline and a special rule to boot. The lack of 4+ save I think fits in with the feel that their armour is old and mangled, but I think if you wanted to perform a statline change it would be the only real one that could make sense outside points changes. I don't think an extra wound has any real justification, they're no more 2 wound worthy than any other human sized 1 wound infantry unit in the game.

I think something a bit more nuanced like increasing the models restored by the banner to be D3+1 instead could be an interesting direction. I think they should still feel elite for sure (and hence not as many as Skeletons), but should probably get more back than Black Knights (That have twice as many wounds).

I think the problem with Grave Guard is they'll always be compared to Skeletons. And while the GG offer a bit of rend, most of the times throwing more attacks at the enemy will solve the same problem anyway. 

 

Black Knights IMO just suffer from old world cavalry syndrome. They're just not the 'top dogs' anymore and it mainly comes from a lack of rend hurting their consistency. I think you could even give them the extra attack and the wight bonus (6's to wound deal an extra point of damage) and they still wouldn't feel great because people expect their Wights to go in and killing blow ****** to death. 

I don't think they should get the weapon profiles of the Wights though, rend tends to be allocated to more elite cavalry units (For instance, Chaos Knights nor Dragon Blades actually have rend).

That being said, I think they're deceptively tanky in the fact that you restore D3 models to the unit. I think they could afford to go down to 100 points per 5 with the current rules and it would make them potentially usable as mobile tanks.

 

I think the problem with Deathrattle as a whole though is lack of killy units. They don't have some big monster or war machines or really killy unit that just dishes out a ton of damage. You need to branch out into allies to get that, and most of the time you just end up in the land of mixed Death because 400 points won't get you your necromancers plus enough killer units. And then you need your 3 units of Skeletons for battleline so it just pushes out stuff like Black Knights and Grave Guard who can't fulfil their roles good enough compared to other units within Death (Grave Guard are killy-lite, while Dire Wolves in general are better than Black Knights).

[AverageBoss]

I would say rend would be fair on Black Knights (and Chaos Knights as well), even at their current point cost. Again Goregruntas, are just 20 points more, have more attacks, more wounds, better armor, and rend, and they are far from what I would consider elite cav.

And Black Knights should be elite cav anyways. Grave Guard should be elite infantry, Black Knights are mounted Grave Guard and this should be reflected in their rules. As is they are closer to mounted skeleton warriors and a light harassment unit that should probably cost around 80-100 points max.

But we already have light harassment cav in the form of 60 point dire wolves. And I feel that they are fine as is. Therefore, Black Knights should be elite (or at least semi-elite) cav, at least on par with goregruntas, and Blood Knights should be super cav on par with Dracothians.

[bonzai]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:15 AM, Squirrelmaster said:

Trouble is, it doesn't change the fact that skeletons have almost twice the toughness per-point. Those figures also assume a Wight King's command ability, which is gonna have better synergy with GG than skeletons. With Neferatta as the general, you wouldn't have that, so you'd be comparing 6 skeleton attacks to 4 grave guard attacks instead.

That's just it. I don't think that you can make an ally a general and keep your allegiance.  Not a huge deal yet as they don't have allegiance abilities, but it you would lose black knights and grave guard as battle line.  If they get a book then it will probably be a bigger deal. 

 

[Sception]

Even if you do have a Wight king general, do you really expect it to still be alive by the time your units see melee?