Dark Aelf (Shadowblades)

[chord]

Yeah those "ward" saves make it really difficult to handle. But sounds like you did a great job strategy wise

[stratigo]

3 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

Not disagreeing with you on the balance issue, but it applies no matter which format you choose.  

I was just commenting that the Open War cards are for Open Play, it says so right in the GHB17.  Sure they work in Matched play as well, but trying to limit the mechanic in a mixed environment just doesn't make any sense.  Same goes for the Firestorm campaign.  It's built around not having even armies fighting each other.  There are 8 players in our campaign (2 man teams).  The person with the higher points isn't always winning and it's been really interesting to see the map change hands.
 

Yeah, I have one for my Nighthaunt Army.  He actually put the Mourngul in a corner on his own.  Once he revealed the Objective on Turn 1, he Turtled up.  I had the opportunity on Turn 1 to eliminate it and committed my entire force to killing it.  Only ended up taking 2 wounds after shooting, charging, and then his inevitable heal.  I want to be clear.  I managed to put over 20 wounds on the thing.  He made some impressive save rolls with that 5++.  Once Mannfred jumped in, it became a different focus as I knew that if I didn't kill the Mourngul, I wasn't going to be able to.  The only advantage I had on Mannfred was that he was a Hero, so the Assassins had the potential to do more.  By potential, I mean it took all 3 of them again, and this time they got some unsaved hits through, but I rolled all 1-2's on that D3 damage.

Wasn't enough to get through his wall of skeles, with a unit of Black Knights and Hex Wraiths sitting behind them.

points are vastly, infinately more balanced than wounds. Unless you are just rocking up with every model in your collection and putting it on a table as your source of balance, I see no reason not to use them in every format. Matched play is more than just points, it's a long set of instructions. Points are there to balance armies between each other, and while GW gets the balance wrong at times, at least there IS a balance. Do you think skavenslave's weight in wounds is worth a star drake's? Firestorm explicitly requires a balancing mechanic to make the system asymetric. It can't shift a balance that doesn't exist.

[Sarkazim]

22 hours ago, stratigo said:

points are vastly, infinately more balanced than wounds. 

What has this got to do in relation to Shadowblades?  You started off with a comment on giving a Ruse to a player with more points, now you're on about Points be more balanced than wounds?  It's really simple.  If I have more wounds, then he gets a Ruse card.  Points, Wounds, Entire Collection, etc has no impact on this.  There is nothing to support doing it.  Sure you might think it's not fair, but let's be real, I CHOSE to play Shadowblades over an army that has command abilities, counters to magic, units with a Rend stat, and some sort of option to inflict Mortal Wounds.  It's REALLY easy to not give care about one more thing I have to face when you play an army like this.  The best bit,  is that we still have fun.  EVEN with all of that, my opponent had to constantly worry about losing the game. 

The Shadowblades are in a weird niche where we're not quite a horde army, but we have to function like one.  I'm going to have more wounds than most of my opponents despite the lower model count.  My 2k list is going to have ~150 wounds.  All but the cheapest horde armies are going to have fewer wounds.  Hell, I have over 100 on my 1.5k list.  Regardless though, I'm rarely going to get a Ruse/Sudden Death card in Matched Play.  Outside of Matched Play, I've already accepted that the game isn't going to be balanced, so what's one more mechanic that I'm already going to be used to playing against when the points are matched?  

[chord]

10 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

The best bit,  is that we still have fun.  EVEN with all of that, my opponent had to constantly worry about losing the game. 
 

You make the best point,  it's about having Fun.

[Sarkazim]

Had a few games over the past 2 weeks.  Nothing really to report since most of them were teaching newer AoS players who simply played with what they have as opposed to thought out list.  It's allowed me to play in a very casual environment were we just roll some dice, laugh at our misfortunes, and have a good time.   

I've been playing the 'Shadowblades' off and on over the past year, with a renewed enthusiasm from the GHB17 changes.  I've been able to have several discussions about the last remaining ??? on this army, with some great input from those who have actually played against me.  I feel it's time to open up the discussion again.  
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PLEASE READ 
*Since it's going to be long, and it's going to have Troll Bait ALL in it, but that's not the intent!*

This is NO longer a Rules Question.  I got that feedback when I posted this in the Rules Forum last year.  Much of what is there is going to be repeated here if you don't want to go look for it.  I've sent my question in a few different times and different methods and I'm still waiting for an official answer.  It's only relevant to this Army, so anyone looking for info will be able to find it all here.  

This IS intended to open the discussion and hear viewpoints on both sides of the debate and go from there.  To be clear I simply want to hear opinions, thoughts, etc.  I'm NOT looking for flat out answers.  I'm fortunate to have a group that allows it in the meantime, and it's probably going to stay that way, until I get a definitive answer.  

If all you're going to do is state that 'I'm Wrong' or that the rule is absolute, then thank you for reading up to this point, but please skip the next bit.

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Does 'Sow Terror and Confusion' Stack?

Sow Terror and Confusion: Enemy units within 14" of Dark Riders are terror-struck; if any of these units take a battleshock test and the roll for that test is a 1, you can roll a dice and add its score to the unit’s battleshock test result.

Here is the ability directly from the Warscroll which simply doesn't tell us if it stacks or not.  From a casual glance, it appears that it doesn't stack because it states enemy units within the range of Dark Riders get a D6 added to the BS test if a '1' is rolled.  It sits right on that hazy wording where it could go either way.  It's possible it doesn't stack because Dark Riders is used universally here without regard to having multiples of 'Sow Terror and Confusion' on the board.  It could stack, because it is still lacking the word 'any' or '1 or more' that was addressed in the FAQ.

This is about why it SHOULD stack, or at least be allowed to stack, until we get clarifacation.  

Going to start with what happens if it DOESN'T stack.  After playing a few games where it doesn't stack after getting my initial answer a year ago it became clear that this ability is next to useless.  There are plenty of other useless abilities out there, so this isn't anything new.  Especially where some of the Legacy units are concerned.  

In the BEST case scenario, the opponent is going to roll a 1, and after checking range, I will at best hope to roll a 6.  This will bring the TOTAL minimum BS Test value to 8. 

1 (BS Test Roll) + 6 (Best STaC result) + 1 (Minimum Casualty requirement for BS Test)
* There are other circumstances in here, but I'll cover those later*

An 8 isn't going to do much to pretty much ANY unit out there.  Most units sit at, or around this Bravery with bonuses alone.  The 'horde' units where this might have an impact either aren't going to lose enough to make a difference, or in my experience, have a way of coming back.  (Looking at you Death -_-)

When we think about this from the basic Battleshock Mechanic that AoS revolves around it's easy to see how this ability has the potential to be broken.  No one wants to lose any models from a BS test and certainly not an additional D6 if they roll a 1, despite not having to lose the 2-6 from the other results.  All it does though is move the best result you can get to a 2 on a BS test instead of a 1, which will often land fewer casualties than rolling the 1.  While it's certainly still an option with a 'Shadowblades' force, limiting the thinking to the traditional application also limits the possibility that there is an army whose function is to alter that mechanic.  

This has never landed me any benefit in any of the games I've played.  If I left anything out about why it shouldn't stack, then please feel free to add the comment below.

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I believe the rule was written for taking each Warscroll separately.  Regardless of allowing it or not, we do have multiple copies of the same ability on the board when taking multiple units.  Following the FAQ on how to resolve multiple abilities that trigger at the same time, we can see how it can possibly stack.  This is nothing new but to be fair it does come with it's own problem again.  The wording on STaC also doesn't clarify to check to see if the unit that rolled the 1 is within range of the unit with the ability at the time it's triggered.  
I mention it because it's been brought up as a reason to not allow stacking.  It does need to be fixed. This isn't the ONLY ability that is worded like this, and I'm not one of those players that is going to try and apply it to a unit that is out of range.  (ie.  A unit that is 5 feet away on the other side of the board isn't going to be able to apply it's STaC to the opponent because there is a different unit within the range).  That's just stupid, and I don't know of anyone that actually allows that despite talking about it.

Moving on.

1 - The BIGGEST obstacle to having STaC work in either a non-stacking/stacking case is getting the opponent to roll a '1' on his Battleshock test.  Standard rules, this is a straight up 1 in 6 chance (~17%).  Not very good odds to rely on as a tactic, and certainly not enough to have much of an impact on the game even if it does trigger.

2 - The Battleshock mechanic also happens to be one that has SO many built in Counters.  All players have the option to make their prize unit simply be Immune to Battleshock.  One of the realms makes units Immune to Battleshock if they meet the conditions.  Several armies have, or can easily get the ability to re-roll Battleshock Tests.  That drops the odds to a 1 in 36 chance.  (~2%)  Remember, that's 1 in 36 Battleshock Tests!
* The oddy funny flip was the Skink Spell that allowed them to roll 2 Dice for the BS test and take the lowest proved to be QUITE fortunate for me, until he just up and stopped casting it!

Experiment:  When looking at these numbers I looked for ways to see more '1' on my opponents dice.  The whole approach on how the army played changed from the traditional try to kill 1 unit at a time, to shoot a unit until it takes a casualty, then move to the next one.  This was very tactically frustrating at first, as I had to learn to ignore immediate threats to inflict broader casualties to force more rolls.  When I started getting my opponent to make 4-5 Battleshock tests a turn, I started seeing those beautiful 1s more often.  Simple math, but more difficult in practice because it breaks from the traditional 'Kill something until it's gone' to 'Wound everything and hope it bleeds!'.  

It wasn't until I started doing this that point 2 became noticeable.  I was seeing the 1s, but I wasn't killing anything.  2-3 models would die, with a typical 3-4 roll (after rolling his 1) they were getting final results of ~8 anyways.   This is also a factor in why several of the players have allowed me to stack it.

3 - Pure 'Shadowblades' have a difficult time putting out damage to reliably force Battleshock tests.  Both Units available to the force are all Damage 1 and have No Rend Value whatsoever.  ONE of the Assassins will get a -1 to their Rend.  The Damage for going against Heroes doesn't apply since Heroes don't take Battleshock tests or are dead!  There is no built in way to apply Mortal Wounds, Gain Rend, Counter Magic, Grant Battleshock Immunity, or have access to Behemoths.  

4 - When actually stacking STaC, it becomes easier to see it's outcome based on averages.  In range of 2 units?  That's going to avg 7.5+1 as a starting point for failed BS tests.  In range of 3?  Great that 10.5+1 for Failed BS tests, which is where the Elite 10 model units experience death.  At 4+ STaC, it becomes lethal to anything that rolls 1.  

This is where I struggled when I asked for a rules clarification a year ago, because I was still in the mentality that 3-4 casualties would be an OP ability and was more accepting of it not stacking.  After a year, it's difficult to consistently get that many casualties for it to be OP.   MSU also appears to be OP when stacking it.  We run into redundancy issues in practice though.  I quickly ran into coverage issues when stacking more than 3 units or my opponents just stayed out of the middle.  Also didn't need to take 10 units, when 5 units in range would do the same thing.  At that point it became a risk-reward that most armies have when list building, and I found that giving up first turn for having a 20+ drop army would result in me losing more than it was worth. 

5 - Taking Allies in a Pure 'Shadowblades' force.  This is where GHB17 is a small light at the end of a looonnnnggg tunnel.  We now have a limited option to fill those gaps listed above.  The points allotment makes it difficult to fill all of them, but at least the deficiency isn't complete.  It's possible to squeeze in a unit of Warlocks, which have put out a single MW, a Sorceress, and a Hydra all on the 400 points iirc.  In playtesting, it simply gave my opponent an order to kill things.  I've decided to stick with just taking 2 Hydras, but STILL haven't had a game with them yet.

6 - Taking 'Shadowblades' as allies.  This was a hot debate for a little while because of those armies with Bravery Modifiers could take units of Dark Riders and then it would be OP.  At BEST you're getting 3 units, but typically 2 units so that you can get something else.  That's 2x5 man units, which are as squishy as running MSU, and still have less coverage than a pure Shadowblades force.  In the optimal situation, you'd have both of them in range for that 2d6 Average, but you still have the problem of getting them to roll a '1'.

7 - Taking 'Shadowblades' in a mixed Order army.  This is another situation where it would be POSSIBLE for STaC to appear OP.  You'd have to find a perfect balance of Dark Riders, Fast/Ranged Units that could consistently do damage to keep up with the speed of the Dark Riders, and units that would modify Bravery or force Tests (like the KO guy that can force the additional test).  While I think that such a combo is possible, it would be improbable that it would be better than other Mixed Order lists out there that combo better, are more reliable, and are simply a better investment cash wise to build multiple lists using the same models.

8 - Last and final point.  I'm paying for it.  I'm investing the points, time, and cash into having multiple units with this ability.  I know it's a weak argument which is why it's at the bottom and I'm not suggesting that anyone buy this army on the hopes that this ability stacks.  At it's core I don't see it differently from taking a DoT army that dishes out an insane amount of MW, Sylvaneth Hunter spam with it's insane ranged damage, Skeleton spam to make it damn near impossible to kill a full unit to prevent it from getting models back, let alone 3-4.  Yes, I'm aware that those abilities are worded more perfectly than STaC.  Based on the above points and my experience, I don't see allowing stacking comes close to what these armies do.

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Whew!  Again, a Pre-emptive Thank You to all who read that.  It was a slow night at work and I'm grateful for the support I've had from the handful of you who've stayed with me on this project.   I've come so far with this army that I'm definately passionate, borderline fanatical about trying to make it work, despite all the setbacks/progress with the other things that I've been playing incorrectly/correctly.

[chord]

Personally I think stacking it falls right in line lore wise.  The Dark Riders are scary,  more dark riders would be even more scary! I don't feel it's over powered as (no offense) the dark riders are not a really hard hitting unit.

How did the game go with taking the warlocks, sorceress and hyrda as allies? any battle reports?

 

[Sarkazim]

5 hours ago, chord said:

How did the game go with taking the warlocks, sorceress and hydra as allies? any battle reports?

It was just a theory list and was never tested.  When I was list building I remember looking at what I needed and I think I was able to do it on the points allotment.  Could be WAY wrong on that.  

I did test running 2 units of Warlocks, one for their sig spell, and the other used Arcane Bolt.  They never got either spell off because of the range.  It didn't matter if I had tied up my opponents with Dark Riders first, they'd simply be shot and just didn't last.  I had better luck with one unit just for 'Mystic Shield' when I was running the Core 20 Rider unit, but in the end decided to go back to more riders.  Might be worth a re-visit when I get a definitive answer since I've got those 10 extra models still unbuilt. 

I've had a few games with a lone Hydra, but again mostly against the newer players so nothing noteworthy to report.  If my opponent gets first turn and has the range, he simply gets targeted first.  He usually doesn't die, but he's already weak by the time he gets in.  If I go first, it's been a hugely different story.  With a 30" threat on every Dark Rider, I can usually put a TON of pressure on any of my opponents ranged units that it becomes a tough call to try and take out the Hydra or deal with the Dark Riders.  I'm making all the usual Noob mistakes but I'm playing against other new players, so I kind of have an idea of what's going on.  I'll know more when I get both of them on the table.

Haven't actually tried the Sorceress, but I'd imagine it'd go the same direction as starting an Assassin on the board for Immunity to Battleshock.  A single model on foot, with no protection, surrounded by an army who's primary strength is it's 14" move.  I'm happy enough when the Assassins survive when they arrive 1/2 through the game.  I was hoping with the Allies list that I'd be able to take Mistweaver and the Tenebrael.  The Mistweaver would at least have that additional protection, and the Tenebrael would've made a HILARIOUS Assassin bomb if I could pull it off.  (Shard teleports on T1, then out pops 5 Assassins!!)  They're not listed as allies for any of the Dark Aelf units, so Mixed Order is the only way I'd be able to add them to my army.

So taking all 3 is a simple matter of Priority for my opponent.  First he'll take out the Warlocks, then the Hydra, then the Sorceress if she was ever a threat.  

[chord]

I look forward to hearing how the 2 hydra's work together!

[Kaleun]

I have found that the mistweaver Saih is nothing for me in my army. The big Problems are that she cant fire at the enemy in turn one and my army of dark elves just has to many units that might be worth targetting with the shield. Furthermore she can easily be focused by enemy ranged units.

You might want to combine the tenebrael shard with one of your assassines. Teleporting the Shard forward and releasing (all?) of the assassines. Might be a one trick pony though.

[Sarkazim]

34 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

You might want to combine the Tenebrael Shard with one of your Assassins. Teleporting the Shard forward and releasing (all?) of the Assassins. Might be a one trick pony though.

Definitely a 1 trick pony, and ENTIRELY dependent on getting his ability off, and possibly even dependent on going first.  If the Shard goes, then so do ALL of the Assassins.

It was pointed out that both Mistweaver and the Shard are only able to ally in a generic Order force.  So I can't use them in a 'Shadowblades' force without loosing my Battleline. 

[Kaleun]

On 22.11.2017 at 4:26 PM, Sarkazim said:

Definitely a 1 trick pony, and ENTIRELY dependent on getting his ability off, and possibly even dependent on going first.  If the Shard goes, then so do ALL of the Assassins.

It was pointed out that both Mistweaver and the Shard are only able to ally in a generic Order force.  So I can't use them in a 'Shadowblades' force without loosing my Battleline. 

indeed. Might be funny!

However generic order also has its cherries. I really think a big force of dark Riders could profit a lot from a Hurricanum. You need a 300 point battleline tax though (if staying with elves).

[Sarkazim]

The Hurricanum is another one that came up a while ago when trying to get my Assassins to actually do something.  I even had a great conversion idea for one with a Sorceress on it.
Let's assume that it was an ally option, and I didn't need the Battleline requirement, it posed a few different problems.

- I could hide the Assassins in it, and when they pop out, they'd get the bonus to hit.  Really only effective if my opponent consistently went after it with his heroes.  Combo with the below ability of needing to keep my Riders in range, this becomes more difficult to do.
- Even with it's move, it's still too slow to keep up with the army to provide a buff that'd be worth it.
- The range limitation of the bonus to hit makes it difficult to maintain more than 3 units to get the hit.  This MIGHT work well for the shooting, but the army would have to be focused around the Hurricanum and it's movement.  I I have figured out a way to get 5 units to benefit from 1 Hurricanum, but then it just limits my mobility and preferred target options for a bonus to hit.

Oddly enough, this discussion helped me figure out the Hydras.  I have a slower unit that provides a much needed damage output to the army that I have to work around.  The biggest difference is that the Hydras aren't providing the buff, the Dark Riders are.
 

[Twitch of Izalith]

Hi - nice to see the development continuing of this fairly unique army. I have taken some inspiration from it and added an assassin and 2 units of 5 dark riders to my Daughters of Khaine list. I think they fit in pretty well. In fact I think the 2 factions should have been combined in the first place!

The riders give me some more movement and a bit of ranged threat on top of the spells my warlocks throw out. The assassin has actually done pretty well so far. He's great for duality of death simply because you can keep him alive by not revealing him!!! but he has also taken out a Slaughterpriest in one game and the Changeling in another (I got double turn so he didn't even get a chance to try and run away!) of course he has bounced off alot of stuff too but he is definitely worth 80 points.

I don't think the Sow Terror and Confusion rule is supposed to stack as written. I do think it should stack but would need a total rewrite to work well.. Something like "add +1 to the roll for every DR unit within 12 inches" or just simplify it to add +1 to battleshock tests for each unit of DR within 12" when the roll is made. Or maybe just make it more powerful on its own - like you can choose to re-roll any of your opponents battleshock tests and add 1 to the result.

I totally get where you are coming from though. For me its just a nice little bonus that may or may not have some lucky results (none so far!) for a Shadowblades army it needs to be part of your core strategy! 

Interested to see how the hyrdas go for you. I have used 1 before as a kind of road block unit. His stats look quite good but he never did much damage for me. He was pretty good at holding up enemy units for a couple of turns though.

Thanks for posting   

[Sarkazim]

On 11/30/2017 at 4:17 AM, Twitch of Izalith said:

Hi - nice to see the development continuing of this fairly unique army. I have taken some inspiration from it and added an assassin and 2 units of 5 dark riders to my Daughters of Khaine list. I think they fit in pretty well. In fact I think the 2 factions should have been combined in the first place!

I wouldn't go that far as to combine them.  It would be difficult for me to see that fluffwise as they were mainly Exiles in the Old World, unless I'm way off.  Of course, personally I feel that the Dark Elves would've been bitter about not being able to take Ulthuan and would've joined Destruction forces instead of trying to find a place among the forces of Order.  

On 11/30/2017 at 4:17 AM, Twitch of Izalith said:

The riders give me some more movement and a bit of ranged threat on top of the spells my warlocks throw out. The assassin has actually done pretty well so far. He's great for duality of death simply because you can keep him alive by not revealing him!!! but he has also taken out a Slaughterpriest in one game and the Changeling in another (I got double turn so he didn't even get a chance to try and run away!) of course he has bounced off alot of stuff too but he is definitely worth 80 points.

The first thing that most of my opponents find uncomfortable when I play is how I can start putting pressure on pretty much any element of his army from the start.  Especially key characters.  It's very difficult to not be able to reach something.  It pretty much has to be completely hidden, or in reserve.  The Assassins are pretty great at killing stuff with a 5+ save, which would include most casters.  Getting the Assassin to those rear models has been more of a trick and in a Shadowblades force, shooting them has been MUCH easier.  Where Assassins are needed is for those heavy hitting Characters, which usually have a better save, some sort of shield, or a way to regain wounds.  It's here that they usually fail me.  The biggest success I had was killing a Slaanesh Demon because his 'I'm going to activate and attack before you do' doesn't trigger off of the Assassins.  The Assassins didn't kill him, but got him down enough for the Dark Riders to finish him off.  Unfortunately, he did get to activate off of the Dark Riders going, and managed to kill 2 of the Assassins before dying.

I'm confused by how you think they're good in 'Duality of Death' though.  Yes, it's nice that they can be kept hidden until you get them on an objective.  Where I'm struggling is keeping them alive after that.  They need to get down as soon as possible because you get points for every turn you control the objective.  So it becomes a challenge to decide if you have enough board control to protect them for more than one turn.  I'm hoping the Hydra's will help out here, and I'm debating hiding an Assassin in each of them for that scenario.

On 11/30/2017 at 4:17 AM, Twitch of Izalith said:

I don't think the Sow Terror and Confusion rule is supposed to stack as written. I do think it should stack but would need a total rewrite to work well.. Something like "add +1 to the roll for every DR unit within 12 inches" or just simplify it to add +1 to battleshock tests for each unit of DR within 12" when the roll is made. Or maybe just make it more powerful on its own - like you can choose to re-roll any of your opponents battleshock tests and add 1 to the result.

I totally get where you are coming from though. For me its just a nice little bonus that may or may not have some lucky results (none so far!) for a Shadowblades army it needs to be part of your core strategy! 

Thank You for reading.  This is also the reason I posted all of it here and not in the Rules thread.  I'm not looking for an answer to how it's played, but reasons it should stack and open the discussion to see if there is some broken combo I'm missing.  Or some valid reason WHY it shouldn't stack.  I also don't think it needs a massive re-write.  All they need to do is add in 'this unit' in the same place everyone is assuming the interpretation 'any unit' to exist to prevent it from stacking.  

Regardless, I appreciate your thoughts on allowing it, and how the units are working in a different force.

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In other news.  I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!!!!
Another player has reached out and he said that he has a Shadowblades force.  It's not his main force, but I'll admit I'm a bit jealous because he said it's painted.  He contacted me on here and is willing to help out.  (I'm not going to call him out, as he'll make himself known if he wants).  Still just happy to hear that someone else has a pile of Horse Riders out there!  

[Twitch of Izalith]

On 02/12/2017 at 3:21 PM, Sarkazim said:

I'm confused by how you think they're good in 'Duality of Death' though.  Yes, it's nice that they can be kept hidden until you get them on an objective.  Where I'm struggling is keeping them alive after that.  They need to get down as soon as possible because you get points for every turn you control the objective.  So it becomes a challenge to decide if you have enough board control to protect them for more than one turn.  I'm hoping the Hydra's will help out here, and I'm debating hiding an Assassin in each of them for that scenario.

Yeah I can see that being a problem if all you have are assassins. I usually try holding the objective with another character and i have the unit with the assassin in support. I don't reveal him until I need him to take over scoring the points either because the first character dies or I need to send them somewhere else. I'm generally concealing him with one of my dark rider units and their speed is really useful for getting him where he is needed and keeping him out of trouble.

I had another couple of games this weekend one with Order Serpentis and one with Daughters of Khaine. I had the same Allies block of 2 units of 5 riders, one assassin and one sorceress in each list. I lost the Serpentis game against fyreslayers but the assassin was a real hero in the other game against mixed Chaos - he helped the Riders clear some blue horrors off an objective in the last turn which pretty much won the game for me (playing starstrike). People forget about him when there is only one!