kahadin
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Finally got some games in with the new book! I'm feeling like I have an idea on how to roll with mortals now, at least at the level l play. It looks like the mortal warscrolls are more consistent without buffs now. They don't really need them to be effective and I don't feel like they gain a huge amount for having them. For example my skull reapers did about the same with +1 to hit as they do with -1 to hit so long as they are fighting a 5+ unit. I know the math will tell you this is a lie, but it has been consistent for me over all the games I've played. Instead of the old buff heroes I really feel like blood boil is the new black. I really feel like every non slaughterpreist hero has to be a star to make up for not having blood boil. It feels like the only decent way to take out heros and monsters. Skullreapers suck at it because they lose their rerolls (in my games it seemed to cripple them) and nothing else seems that good at it. I brought along an exalted Db with spear and he is an ok duelist, but he is no blood boil. I used to like mixing in slaves to darkness, but besides maybe marauders they seem to lag behind blood boil and skull reapers. Blood warriors still are meh for me and for me wrathmongers never seemed worth it. I could give a unit +1 attack, or I could just ha e a whole extra unit. The extra unit of skullreapers seemed better than +1 a in the games I played and it was not too hard to scrape up 40 points. I still take marauder horsemen to snatch objectives or screen for me, but I'm going to try to put together an "optimal" list of mainly priests and reapers and see how it goes. Also I have been using slaughterborn, and it rocks hard.
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I just asked on the FB GW AoS page and they also feel like the 5 man unit cannot take an icon nor glaive. FB is not official, but I trust it, that's the way everyone handled it anyway. I just had a flare of hope light up in my chest, but it has been swiftly extinguished. ;_;
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It appears that the wording is identical on the current warscroll for both glaives and icons... So no Icons in a 5 man right?
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So I have to bring this up. For blood warriors it is one in every 10 models can get a glaive and one in every 10 can get an icon. Is there anything definitive that says a 5 man squad cannot get glaives and icons. Normally the restrictive wording would be "for every ten models you may..."
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I'm still on the fence about skullcrushers. If they are in units of three they do very little. Units of 6 are unwealdy. I've had them o. The table before and I feel like they are generally too big to actually get all six into contact most of the time. I'll still try it as I have everything on hand.
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That's a good poi t about skullcrushers. I better re-evaluate them. On the charge they should be rocking. I already gave some and a Jug Lord so that would be easy to try. Also anyone feel like wrathmongers just replaced the bloodsecrator? If I only cared about 1a I feel like Id rather take the mongers now instead of the Totem.
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Bray shamans are the same points as a priest and have something like bloodbind. He could throw down some cogs with minimal ajustments
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This is how I liked to play mortals before. I mainly used skullcrushers to receive charges or control enemy movement. I also used blood warriors to receive the alpha strike and slow it down. Much of the book is improved for me in this regard and I'm not complaining about it. The gorefists alone are a big bonus for me. My main worry is that my hammer previously were skullreapers with +1 hit or save. I don't feel like they can do it anymore. I absolutely think reapers are better unbuffed now then they were previously. Unbuffed they tend to get more mws and damage, but they don't benefit as much from buffs as the old ones. The old ones were pretty over the top imo if you handled them right. For me personally I feel like there is not really a bb hammer in the mortals. If anyone finds it let me know. I don't have any bloodthirsters right now and don't relish buying or painting them.
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what was your list? Also how did your friend do in his gt with his?
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This is what I was afraid of. For me the 2 handers did almost all the damage along with mortal wounds on 5s and sixes. Now thats gone. As far as I'm concerned the attacks they have are not great. I'm searching for a good hammer now. If I jump ship to Slaanesh I want one, and if I stay khorne I want one. Manticore lord might do the trick. Matbe buffed bulgors? I'm not really sure. I feel like I might need to just get some damn bloodthirsters, but I want to proxy them to see if they are really the punch I'm looking for and are cost effectve.
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I don't like dragon ogors. They really need the faction specific artifacts and stuff from BoC and I still don't like them. HOWEVER, you can't take a marked shaggoth, but you could ally one in... He just wouldn't be marked. I'm still not sold on them. I really want to look at the BoC formation. Its a big traddeoff because you lose a lot for a +1 to hit buff on a unit, or +1 attack. For example bullgors cannot heal unless they are in a BOC army.
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So a long time ago I discovered a 40 man unit of marauders is pretty tanky and cheap if you could make it immune to BS. I used to do this with a warshrine and devote them to slaanesh. It could have been easily done with the old Bloodsecrator (So I'm not sure why I never bothered to try it), but it can currently work with an exalted deathbringer. I'm trying to review options, but this should be a line that would be hard to eat through. Its 40 wounds at 5+ for 200 points. It also has a big footprint. They could hold an objective, or just tarpit a unit to get hammered. IIRC there is nothing more point efficient than them if they are immune to BS.
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I'd really appreciate it if people brought in the arguments for "New Khorne so OP LOL!" I'm not seeing them in this thread, and I'm not seeing them elsewhere. It would be really helpful if we could just copy/paste some of those nuggets here so we could be privy to all those op nuggets everyone else knows about that we don't. Everything I see is more like "This unit can now see play in these conditions" and "Yeah that got weaker, but it was already so OP it still is." Maybe demons got great and I'm just being narrow minded as I prefer mortals... Also I can tell you guys from experience that the Manticore lord is pretty good. I like him with Berserker lord to make him tanky, but the +1 damage, even on just his weapons is very strong. Also, I think now that the battalions have changed for beasts of chaos so we can actually take them in a knorne army is worth thinking about. Bulgores with +1 to hit should be nasty for 140 points. I havn't had too much time to think about using BoC yet (when I first picked them up you couldn't use marked battalions outside BoCso I put the out of my mind). If anyone thins of something decent before me let us know, because BoC might be fun with our buffs. Not sure if they are better than regular BoC though. Edit: I posted this as Mikey posted, but I'm glad to see that there is a feeling that the book is good from someone that actually played it.
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Honestly I'm not really sure there is a debate about axes over fists. Axes used to be the preferred choice so most oldbies went full axes and have over $200 of plastic glued dual axes. It would take a lot for someone in that camp to ever advocate gorefists. I really think that rr1 on a 3+ to hit is marginal, and for units like blood warriors a one in six chance for a mortal wound for each successful save way outweighs a few extra hits with a 4+ no rend weapon.
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I hate to be a wet blanket, but this is really true. The reavers are man sized, while the priests are giants. It's not as cheap, but the exhalted dbs would be good with minimal conversion.
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For anyone wondering about slaves units I played with them quite a bit. I've personally found that most don't do the job. Theoretically Warriors with great weapons and the warshrine's reroll hits and the lord on manticore CA should put out bonkers damage, but they only fight in one rank and are slow. As they are slow they tend to get charged and with no shields or no respite just tend to die. I'm a big fan of the lord on manticore with berserker lord, the sword and lance. He REALLY needs berserker lord if you drop the shield, and he REALLY needs the lance (you get either the lance or the shield) He is fast, tough and hurts Stuff Also I like the Khorne DP. He gets +1 hit for being khorne so the axe rocks. However he dies easily. I also like marauder horsemen if I can get them. I use them for screens and grabbing objctives and harass. They are more speed. Lastly, even though its not slaves to darkness, I used to ally in warhounds as a screen. I don't know if they still have it, but they autoran 6". You can see a theme of all my auxiliaries being fast. I always felt like the army benefited from a few fast elements.
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That is certainly the main weakness, you can only fit so many models around 5 bases. As the unit gets bigger the investment does too. Makes me feel like they have to be doing more than softening up a unit. As for the sorcerer I made a slave Wizard when the edition first game out in case I needed one for endless spells. I've never brought him to the table, but he looks thoroughly abused by his Khorne masters.
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I might have to dust off my blood warriors then. People around me love making out units for damage. I've got to try to find out if I can weasel some way to reroll saves. The math will probably show that the return damage is not worth the 100 points, but I'll try it anyway.
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So I asked on reddit: If a blood warrior is wounded 100 times do you make 100 saves or roll saves individually until he is dead. It looks like you roll 100 saves. Page 7 of the rule pdf states that you allocate damage after all the units attacks are resolved. This may be news to no one, but it seems to make a good case for msu gorefists. Is there something I'm missing or a rule I got wrong? Seems like we could run some blood warriors into a death star and deal a good amount of ortal wounds back if this is right.
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The wording is different. The book ones say something like a priest in your arms can chant this, while the warscroll ones say this model can chant one of the following. So you can spam bb, but not frenzy
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I would delete this post if I could, but i mistakenly thought mongers had a three inch range and went down. I feel foolish they have always been 2!
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It looked like the locus was an allegiance ability... So the rule does something if you ally him in I guess.
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I had a way I liked to play and a new book came out and made it impossible to play that way. I know we need to adapt to a new environment, but I really enjoyed playing my army. Even when losing I still enjoyed playing the game, but I'm not excited about this stuff and really lost me spark for it. I think some things got better, so maybe I'm just being "special needs." For example I havn't run the numbers, but I think skullreapers might be better unbuffed than they were before. I refuse to beleive they are near their strenth with a killing frenzy without seeing the hard numbers, but not requiring a buff is probably a good thing. I also ironically hate the new skullcrushers. I used to use them as a blocking unit. 15 4+4++ wounds with a huge footprint. Their charge is amped up now, so you would be stupid to leave them stationary to try to control the play area... You lose a lot by not charging with them and their points appear to have gone up quite a bit. I also know their save got better, but I'm afraid I will miss those shields. Perhaps we will have magic locked down so hard they won't need their shields anymore, so who knows. Bloodbind makes me want to cry. Like really 4 real. My favorite psychic power was lash of slaanesh, or that spell in fantasy that moved a unit the way you wanted. I think you can still do great things with it, but 4-6" will make it tough. I think in some ways it can be an improvement. Put a unit within 4 inches of a stretched out line and they will move only a few models in contact and be stuck piling in all game if they don't retreat... Ah hell. I'll probably like the new book alright, but complaining about it sure relieves my feelings. Edit: I'm already feeling better. I only ever took gorepilgrims for the reroll prayers. Now that our batallions are (you know what)I just gained 180 points I din't have before.
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The opportunity cost of losing the other blood blessings seems too high to me. 300 points and 3 heroes for a chance at 3 BT per turn. You also have all your SPs clustered up in one place. Incidentally I would probably sacrifice chaos warriors with shields. They get a save against it and are only a few more points than reavers. They can also do something besides just die a bit better.
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You pay more for throw away units than you would buying the real deal and a proper screen. I really think you can only use summoning as a bonus. I'm not sure there is an effective way to build around it.
