Gwendar
-
Posts
1,700 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Store
Downloads
Blogs
Events
Posts posted by Gwendar
-
-
45 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:
My experience with Skyfires has been the opposite and they were extremely underwhelming and rarely got close to their investment back.
I usually run HostDup with a 20xTzangors 10xpinks 10xpinks. The Tzangors if not effectively dealt with can apply early pressure to allow the wizards and pinks to get into position and do Tzeentch things.
I agree with the threat if Darkfire doing damage back but I tend to cast mine from Be'lakor and he usually isn't near the bulk of my army. I do prefer it with Kairos/LoC.
Either way I'd rather spend 80 points elsewhere than on the bow goats 😜😜
For me, they can typically delete a single 4-6 wound hero per turn which is often invaluable when these are huge force multipliers.. and with their 40" threat range, it's hard to get away from them. Afterwards they can still charge into something weak and take an objective. They won't be deleting 10-20 man units of Mortek Guard or anything, but they absolutely can take things away from Clanrats, Ungors, 10-20 Skinks, 10-man Vulkite units, etc. This is usually counting those tougher units taking BS though.. but they're often able to hit those unsupported units that are just holding backline objectives anyway.
Like I said, I'll try both version out.. I have my reasons for liking Skyfires and I'm well aware I'm in the minority 🤣 -
30 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:
So I like these off beat lists but I have play tested Skyfires and as much as I want them to be even close to worth 200 points. They really really are not worth it. I would take enlightened every single time...if not any unit in the book over them.
Math hammer supports this and I still play tested them, just because I thought they can't be bad 16inch movement range etc.
Tzangors on the other hand have been excellent in blobs of 20 for me against multiple types of lists. Many opponent's as well have said they didn't expect them to be quite as good.
So my adaptions would be swap Skyfires > Enlightened and take the superb Darkfire Daemonrift 😉😉
I don't disagree completely, but I've had Skyfires do a lot of work in terms of deleting an important hero and clearing weak horde units with no support. I already have 2 CC hammers in the list via Knights and Tzaangors so figured a dual-purpose unit would work out. That really was a point of contention for me... I also thought of swapping them out and giving Be'lakor the Rift to cast. I don't love the idea of using it without Kairos\LoC to auto-dispell it right away, but since there's so few wizards in this list anyway it isn't really a huge concern.
So yeah, I'll probably see how that works out. Glad to see Tzaangors are working out for people.. I think I just wanted them to be a bit better so I could justify running 2 or 3x20 of them in a list so I just wrote them off 😅. Without the +1 attack agenda (that will likely go to the Knights) then they aren't going to be as good, but that's still a chunk of wounds with a 6+ DPR sitting on something. Dismantlement and Tides are both good alternate Agendas for them as well.-
1
-
-
7 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Honestly I don't think Tzaangors can go down much in cost without being a broken level of efficiency, they're already 9 points a wound, which is pretty efficient especially given how hard they can hit. Units of 15 would make a difference because 10 man units of Tzaangor are little more than overcosted chaff, and 20 man units are blenders (their damage falls off super hard once they go under 9 models). 15 man units, at the current cost, would be 270 points, and still effectively hit nearly as hard as the 20 man unit (6 greatblades, 3 mutants), since it can be hard to fit 12 models in at times anyways. 270 points is much more palatable for taking multiple units of as well, but 360 points is very hard to fit into a list, especially in multiples. 5 man chaff Tzanngors for 90 points would be fine as well, although there is a lot that can do that job better.
That's just it though right? How many other units are grossly undercosted or punch above their weight? Plenty of factors to consider in that which is why I don't like comparing units between armies.. but just throwing it out there. I just feel like they missed a bit of a point with them but I believe what @Grimrock says is probably the truth. They hit hard enough now to cripple a unit and have the wounds to stick around for another 1-2 turns.. so yeah, I don't think I was giving them enough credit after looking more and more into them this morning 😉
For @RUNCMD and anyone else interested in an alternate Hosts Arcanum based list, I actually worked this up on lunch so it's in a very rough state and I think a lot more optimization can be had. Not sure what to do with the extra 40 points.. but you all get the general idea I think:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Leaders
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Be'Lakor (240)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 4x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8x Savage Greatblade
- 8x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
Units
10 x Chaos Knights (320)
- Cursed Lance
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139Originally I had this as Cult of a Thousand Eyes, but for obvious reasons it turned more into "StD with a couple of Tzeentch units" rather than a more balanced mix of both since I had 80 Marauders in as well (to take advantage of the Coven ability to get hit RR's). So this rough version is really just 3 threats from the Tzaangor, Knights and Skyfires (wanted a long-range threat and something to take lightly guarded objectives since this list devoid of strong casting) while the Screamers and move as needed.
Not sure what\if anything should change but always curious to hear your thoughts. -
38 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
The lack of a tzaangor subfaction, or good battalions makes them an odd fit in Tzeentch, but don't undersell their damage. Larger units get more special weapons, so a unit of 20 gets 8 greatblades and 4 mutants, and given they're on 32s, it will be all you're attacking with. The issue is the cost/unit size, I really think they would see more play if they could be taken in units of 15, since you've got a buffer for the extra attack and still get a lot of special weapons.
I don't mean to undersell them, rather I don't find it worth the cost as you stated. I don't know that units of 15 would do enough to fix anything and all-in-all I would like them to go down to 160 at least.. but yeah, the lack of a Tzaangor coven that buffs them in some way is just really perplexing to me and instead they gave Acolytes 2 Covens?
Mathhammer shows that just those 12 models in combat with +1 attack can pump out ~22 wounds vs a 4+ save which is pretty nice since they don't need any specific heroes to buff them. Bestigors are a good comparison, but you can do more with StD units I think. Chaos Knights, Warriors, Marauders and Chosen can all do far more for the same cost or cheaper, but that's not including the Sorcerer Lord and Chaos Lord\Mounted Chaos Lord needed to make them work. I dunno, I may get around to trying out a unit of 20 at some point in the Hosts Arcanum list.. I've just never been impressed with them in general. -
34 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
Totally this. I'm focusing on the Mortal side of tzeentch but it's hard to not get some support from Daemons, be that from horrors or Flamers or Screamers. I don't even bother with Tzaangors on foot, no point atm. Return on investment is just too low and I don't think there's much in the way of synergies that are reliable with the covens, albeit I've never played them due to not having the models, so if anyone in this thread reading this can comment on the Tzaangor covens please chime in!
The witchfyre/pyrofane combo is what im experimenting with now in multiple different forms and i'm enjoying it but Kairics man, they fold like butter and battleshock, so it's imperative to have some 1's and 2's in those DD's. But like you mentioned, I have 50 of them in my list, and you don't get a discount at any level and 30 is the max.
Just whilst it's in my mind and im typing, I would really love to see some more Daemons for Slaves to Darkness that could be mixed into any other Chaos allegiance. That would be an interesting element for Tzeentch. Some of the mortals work really well in our Allegiance, but having a cool unit of STD Daemons that we could abuse with fold reality would be cool!
It's odd really... there isn't really a Coven that does much for purely Tzaangors as Transient Form is still Acolyte focused with the added side effect of "oh and when one dies you can maybe add a Tzaangor to a unit on a 6! That's cool, right?" and that's it. There really needed to be a combat focused Coven that buffs up Tzaangors, Skyfires and Enlightened while Pyrofane was left to the Acolytes for an alternate shooty build. I think the faction has a solid ability to make something focused like that as a mini-BoC with more wizards, but it's missing the Coven to do so. You can run them in BoC but I mean... why would you when you could just run cheap Ungors and Bestigors instead?
I'm not sure if I ever shared my Pyrofane list, but it's probably one that I enjoy the most next to the Hosts Duplicitous stuff. 2x30 and 1x10 Acolytes (and the Enlightened for the Witchfyre tax which aren't bad for 100 points) along with my standard Kairos + Spellportal and Changecaster + Balewind to sit back and sling spells. I run it with a Fatemaster, Curseling and Magister on Disc as well, but been looking at a Changeling and\or Blue Scribes to swap in.. only ran the list twice so far but it's been interesting. I always keep a CP ready for BS but I think that's a holdover from playing Skaven the last 3 1/2 years that I can't shake 🤣. I don't think it's great all in all, but it's a way to get a shooting heavy list that isn't "I'm going to delete 2-3 units per turn in a 1-drop" in the form of Conflag Flamers.
Yeah, but I guess StD is meant to be mortals all in all so I don't know if we'll see unmarked daemons. I've looked at StD a bit recently but I just prefer inserting Chosen into lists and that's about it. Tzeentch is getting you DD which is a big reason you always see Tzeentch Archaon lists.. but aside from that I don't know how useful it is outside charge rolls. That said, 40 Marauders (who don't really need DD charge rolls to be honest), 10 Chosen or 10 Knights backed up by a Chaos Lord and Sorcerer Lord can put out pretty incredible numbers if you include the +1 attack Agenda. Having any of those units fight twice and RR all saves, hits and wounds is nuts, especially when you can use DD to just make the Sorcerer Lords spell go off and ensure you get that 9+ charge.
Anyway, I've rambled too long and created another wall of text.
Looks like you got me thinking again.. maybe at some point I'll expand on that Chosen idea but try out Knights and Marauders instead. Math isn't everything in a dice game.. but I like those numbers 😉. These are assuming each unit has the full RR's and +1 attack. The Knights I gave +1 to hit to via the CA from the mounted Lord\Karkadrak.. if you can get in a double-pile in (note the unit has to be within 3" of something per the CA wording) then you could easily delete 2 units, especially with the reach on the Knights.
-
4 hours ago, RUNCMD said:
Yeah Fatemaster was one that I was thinking about suggesting but I think the CPs are better spent elsewhere. Aspect is a great artefact and I think it would do well in this list as well if you're not too concerned with Aura of Mutability. I think I love Aura because it makes Tzeentch quite choppy when it comes to those critical wound rolls, and on a pack of Horrors, when they are at 20 or so they already get that nice lil +1 but then the help on the wounds makes them actually stand up straight a bit and with some agenda's, they can be quite nice in both combat and shooting!
I really wish you could just have one big unit of Enlightened and Skyfires for this Battalion really. A unit of 6 of both, in my mind, makes it easier to buff than having 4 units of 3, spesh with only one Shaman. Safe to say the Mortal/Arcanite side of Tzeentch is a bit lacking atm, in terms of cost v reward. Interested to know your thoughts on that?
I mean, if I was going to only be shooting with Skyfires then sure, I could see merit in that.. but I don't do that and I have always used them quite aggressively as (contrary to popular belief) they do very well hitting 5-6+ save units first in combat and pairing that with Enlightened means you can tag the same unit with both units and then both get their RR's if they swing with that unit next. People grossly underestimate just how much those Discs can do 🤣
But yeah.. I agree completely. I would really prefer running 6 of each than splitting them like this, but I still think it could potentially be worth it for the MW's from the battalion. This does allow me to send them in opposite directions if needed and threaten more of the board and while the +1 to hit from the Shaman is nice, neither unit gain much from it in all honesty. Enlightened only gain about 2 damage on average by having the +1 to hit on the Spears and Beaks if they're getting the RR's.. but for Skyfires it's a marginal increase of 1 (or less than 1) and is better as a means to just counter Look out, Sir and let you use 4's on DD to at least auto-hit if you don't have 6's to spend.
I really wanted to throw a unit of 20 Tzaangors into this but.. yeah, Arcanite Tzeentch just isn't in a great spot unless you're running 60+ Kairics in Pyrofane\Wytchfire. I can't fathom spending 140 more points for 40 wounds and 'meh' damage output compared to 50 wounds worth of Horrors sitting somewhere. I mean that's an entire wizard I would be losing.. if they were on a 4+ save and\or fought in CC a bit better than I would definitely think that cost is justified.. but not as is. -
1 hour ago, Gnawdwell said:
Hi guys,
I played my third game of aos today and got totally noobstomped by an ironjaws list.
He had a maw krusha, 3 warchanters, 1 shaman, 10 brutes and a unit of 6 and 2 units of 3 gore-gruntas.
I had Thanquol, 1 engineer, 1 Clawlord, 1 master moulder, 2x20 Clanrats, 30 Stormvermin, 2 wlc, as well as 4 Rat ogres and 1 hpa.
He got the first turn and managed to charge 9 of his gore-gruntas as well as the maw krusha into 1 Clanrat unit, my hpa, and the Rat ogres in the back of my deployment zone and wiped them out. My turn 1 my magic really failed to do anything I supercharged 1 wlc and rolled 6 1's melting the cannon and my second wlc only took 2 mw on the mawkrusha. Having killed non of his units and half my army dead after the 1 turn we decided to call it quits.
I would like any and all tips for next time I am playing this guy. Thanks!
Honestly it just sounds like dice weren't particularly in your favor and you did not deploy or zone out board edges well enough, which happens. That's a pretty high aggro IJ list that will 100% do what it can to charge you T1 which you found out the hard way. You need to be premeasuring threat ranges and understanding how far away you need to be to prevent getting charged\shot on their turn. Pre-measuring ranges and asking your opponent for their threat ranges ("Can any units run and charge? How far can any units shoot? How fast does anything move? Can it do any movements or teleports in the hero phase? etc etc) is totally okay and within game rules to do, so don't ever feel like you're being "that guy" for asking. If they get uppity over you asking, then they are being "that guy" 😉
As for the list, I would find a way to get those Stormvermin to 40; really no reason to have them any lower than that as they lose their horde buff even quicker and they really need it. To be honest, I don't think those Rat Ogres are going to do anything for you and you're pretty heavily invested into heroes compared to full size threats on the table. You can drop the Master Moulder and Rat Ogres, keep the HPA if you like it and put those 280 points into something else. I'm not sure how you feel about shooting or what models you have, but things like 6-12 Jezzails (or 2 WLC's like you have, but I vastly prefer Jezzails for consistency), 6 Stormfiends or 20 Acolytes are the most common shooting hammers we use next to the CC ones that are Monks and Stormvermin.
HPA's are good, but I find that you really need 2 to get a lot out of them; they just die too easy and the random movement means they can have a hard time getting where they're needed. -
7 hours ago, RUNCMD said:
@Gwendar I would say consolidate one of those Screamer units into one of the others to end up running either a unit of 9 or x2 units of 6 to lower the drops (albeit only by one) but also better objective holding and for better use/maximise the use of the Inbuilt CP ability from the Host.
I think I would swap possibly the Changeling out for the Fluxmaster and the only reason I say that is to have it stay near a Pack of Screamers to make them the -1 to hit in combat, and also swapping out the artefact of the Well of Arcane might to giving him the Aura of Mutability (the +1 to wound rolls for daemon units within 9'). Also - if you're playing in Chamon, the Fluxmaster can burn a CP to add +1 to the screamers bites making them pretty choppy in the end for such a cheap battleline unit.
Also the Fluxmaster being 10 points cheaper you might get the triumph as well, but I guess you're losing the extra spell from the Changeling and his very nice -1 to hit ability. So I guess there's def merit in both. Guess it will be all down to testing.
I think in my mind, I would use the flux master and a pack of screamers and even some enlightened to race across the board turn 1, trying to position myself however needed in case of the double, then turn two if possible, have everything fly over any units as needed doing the mortals, then summon those 6 free screamers and then possibly even other items based on summoning points and then you have a lot of board control turn 2 (providing you/I had Tzeentch's favour). If it was a pack of just 6 screamers, its still quite a lot to do some gnarly stuff especially with buffs and spells (especially if you had the shaman up there doing arcane suggestion = probably my favourite spell ever).
I really think theres some merit in the list. HIGH movement, potential for some serious damage/stress for your opponent and I think that screamers are an overlooked/under rated unit in Tzeentch ( I know I need more).
Let us know how you go with your tests and what you did and didn't like, noting you mentioned this is still a rough blueprint! Keen to hear more!
True, I suppose that would make sense and will make that change to the Screamers.. I wrote this when I was near going to bed and I was already on 4 hours of sleep so I was just kinda pressing buttons with my eyes half shut 😅
The Changeling was just an addition to use up points and figured a 2-cast wizard was the best bet, especially with the built in -1 to hit, effectively giving a unit -2 to hit against the Pinks or Screamers if he could keep up (or come in T1 with the free 6 Screamers).. but I see what you're saying. The other choice was a Curseling, but felt I could get more out of the Changeling, especially with 3 auto-unbinds per game. Still, I just feel like Screamers aren't exactly dishing out damage; even with the +1 to wound from the aura and -1 rend a unit of 6 will only do about 5 wounds against anything but a monster. Would RR'ing two d6 MW's spells be better than that though? Who knows. The better bet would probably be to give him Aspect for the DD replenishment.. but I wanted my Scribes to be more than just a RR battery. Granted, I also need to realize that this isn't my other lists that have 5 wizards standing around each other to even benefit from those RR's in the first place... he's really just acting as a 2+ means of getting off Firestorm and something fast to get summons out with.
So there's a few things to experiment with here, for sure.
Someone on FB suggested a Fatemaster to run along the Skyfires for the RR's, but after thinking about it I don't feel it's entirely worth that CP when I would likely need to spend it on Screamers or other things. If they really want to kill a hero, then I'll use 2-3 DD to get them 6's and deal out those MW's (another reason I should probably use Aspect of Tzeentch 🤣). I definitely think I will be giving your suggestions a try though just to make everything be a little more aggressive which isn't how I typically play Tzeentch (or anything really, I'm a very reactionary\passive player) but is most definitely how this need to be played. I'll definitely be sure to update you all with batreps if I can actually get some testing in this weekend... I need to actually practice these lists before I take them to tournaments for once.-
1
-
-
Been thinking about Hosts Arcanum + Skyshoal Coven tonight out of nowhere and just came up with this so it's a bit rough. General idea is reasonable MW output from all the Screamers (who are also cheap battleline, IE extra points on a lot of BP's) and you can give the Enlightened\Skyfires the pre-game move from Hosts. Skyshoal lets the Enlightened\Screamers throw out d3 MW's on a 2+ for each unit they pass across which works in conjunction with the Screamers 5+ MW's.
The free 6 Screamers and free auto-unbinds are pretty neat too I guess 😉SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Screamers of Tzeentch (160)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
Battalions
Skyshoal Coven (140)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 115
Thinking I may run it in an upcoming tournament in a week.. not sure if it's a gimmick or if it could actually work.
-
1
-
-
14 hours ago, gronnelg said:
I made a list I really like. I need help with artefacts and traits for the bombardier and clawlord though.
I'm not sure what to give to whom. Deranged inventor would make the jezzails more versatile, as they could move without losing the RR to hit (MMMWP is for the acolytes). It's utility is arguably circumstancial though. Vigourdust injector could work on the acolytes I guess?
Vigourdust + verminous valor ( it's a really important hero after all). Also what do you think about bomabrdier vs engineer in this case? MMMWP is reserved for the acolytes after all...The clawlord is primarly there to buff the SV, but what about brutal fury + things bane combo?
I would go with Vigordust and Deranged Inventor 100%. I don't think you'll get much out of making the Clawlord hit harder, especially when he isn't hurt. Deranged is a backup to allow your Acolytes to suck less in case you fail MMMWP and if MMMWP goes off then yeah, you can use it to move the Jezzails without losing firepower.
Keep in mind you can use Vigordust Injector on the Stormvermin as well for the +1 to hit and charge. Oh, and yeah if I have the points I will always take a Bombardier over an Engineer, but the triumphs are pretty great so that's up to you really. All you're missing out on is a very swingy shot that can miss (90% of the time in my case), kill you, do 12 wounds or do 1 wound 😉-
1
-
1
-
-
On 9/8/2020 at 5:50 AM, Heaven_lord said:
Hey, what do you think of this list ?
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/09/aos-list-of-the-week-gotreks-alive-thriiiive.html
It's interesting... I don't think you need Gotrek but he does what he does best. I've been enjoying running Vostarg with 2 Gunhaulers and 40 HGB and it's worked out the best for me lately giving me something to snipe off those 5-wound heroes.
On 9/15/2020 at 3:46 PM, CorvoMaltes said:Hi guys, quick question about the lords of the lodge battalion:
- I use the command point and pile and in and attack first.
- When I attack again, Does it mean that I can pile in again or just attack?
So long as you're within 3" of an enemy unit or made a charge move that turn then you can pile in when attacking that turn, period.
-
15 minutes ago, Ratling said:
Hi guys.
There are warpstone sparks if i have skryre hero.
Can I use them for- In the hero phase, pick 1 friendly CLANS SKRYRE WIZARD. You can re-roll casting, dispelling and unbinding rolls for that WIZARD until the end of that phase. At the end of that phase, roll a dice. On a 1, that WIZARD suffers D3 mortal wounds.
after for example i fail a cast? Or do I have to declare it before I try my first cast on the wizard?
- In your shooting phase, pick 1 friendly CLANS SKRYRE HERO. Then pick up to 3 different friendly CLANS SKRYRE units that are wholly within 13" of that HERO. You can add 1 to the Damage characteristic of missile weapons used by those units until the end of that phase. At the end of that phase, roll a dice. On a 1, that HERO suffers D3 mortal wounds.
- In the combat phase, pick 1 friendly CLANS SKRYRE HERO. You can re-roll hit rolls for that HERO until the end of that phase. At the end of that phase, roll a dice. On a 1, that HERO suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Same for these uses of a spark. Can I spend a spark after my wound rolls and after I need a re-roll on a hero?
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure there's ever been a particularly clear answer on it.
As written, yeah you can do these at any point in their phases simply because they all are worded as "in X phase" rather than "at the start of X phase" or some other requirement.. although I don't think it's intended. Generally I always tell people beforehand when it comes to the shooting and I treat it as something that I need to do before I shoot with a unit. For the casting RR's though I generally only use a spark when I fail the cast.
6 minutes ago, Ratling said:And one more question.
If I use common command ability like All-Out attack is it used from my hero or do I just use it out of nowhere? Asking this because masterclan gets a command point back on 5+.All command abilities are used from heroes (or whatever unit has a Command Ability on it's warscroll unless stated otherwise, OBR are a fine example of this); it isn't like 40k where you can just use stratagems from nowhere and on whatever unit. So yeah, the Masterclan hero would need to be the one saying they're using it in order to get the CP back on a 5+.
-
1
-
1 hour ago, Blisterfeet said:
I'm lucky and have a Kroak Seraphon player in my group. I have played him 10+ times. Generally horror based changehost can win by attrition on obj, but it can get ropey if they do some solid opening damage.
Flamer version I think is weak against castle Kroak, you have to commit so heavily to do damage it exposes you in the following turns.
I have had success focusing on the astrolith bearer with mw spells through portal, then focusing on dispelling the balewind and in a response, the following turn Be'lakoring the kroak. This usually will give you enough time to set up your blobs of horrors and objective holders and then weather the following turns.
If you want to 'changehost flamer' Kroak you have to play it like tau in 40k. You target the saurus guard with one blob and then all the other fire into Kroak once he has no 'drones' to soak wounds.
Generally my matches are 60/40 in favour of Seraphon but in general I think we can win on obj on some battleplan.
Zoning is the most important skill against tier S armies like KO, Seraphon etc you need to have map denial constantly in your mind if you are to win.
Hope that helps.
I used to play against Seraphon nearly every week so I'm also quite familiar.. but more-so now that I've played against every possible list configuration for months now against players better than myself 😅. Zone denial is something that's been ingrained in my playing for a long time to the point where I have issues now with zoning out board edges against armies who don't even have any means of a teleport because I'm so used to doing it.
I don't know if I agree with the Flamer route being weak; you don't usually go after Kroak with it, you just kill everything else right away. I've watched this be done by some of the best tournament players on both sides of the table, multiple times while they streamed their games on TTS. Generally in these lists you also have a Spellportal as you mentioned and Changecaster with a Balewind so you have a reasonable chance at killing Kroak or his little band of helpers like you said. Honestly though, I've found that a lot of the time he can just be ignored. If you wipe everything else off the table easily and then just sit and summon things for an early lead then there isn't really anything he can do.
I think Seraphon\Tzeentch is a balanced matchup, all things considered. Kroak is the biggest issue just because of the board-wide unbinds coupled with multiple +'s to casts\unbinds.. hence one reason Flamer spam works well at just deleting all their scoring units off the board right away. My magic based Hosts lists would struggle a bit more potentially, but those lists also have Be'lakor in them to shut him off as needed.-
2
-
-
45 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
LOL.
Thanks for the write up mate, always good to read your input. I honestly think that the amount of teleports and stuff they get, its a bit OP. I also read theres an ability they can use where they can make a charge move within 18 inches using 3 dice? Doesn't even specify they have to be a certain distance away for legit they could be 9 inches away and still roll 3 dice, as far as I understand it.Yeah Kroak on Balewind and just dealing mortal wounds from his ability and then all the unbinds... so gross.
I really love that they are finally killing it on the Battlefield and obviously there are going to be some lists that people take that are not super OP, but some of the stuff that I've been able to build just doesn't seem fun for my opponent, even in a tournament setting really.
Also, due to loss of tonality and everything else that makes us human on the Internet, this isn't me complaining as such, I just actually find this a bit funny at how the army operates!
The biggest thing I find funny though is how GW errataed Changehost's 2 teleports but then give Seraphon the ability to deepstrike and also teleport as many unit s they want LOL. GG.
Yeah, they have that as well but I can't remember what gives it.. generally I don't see that as much as the above lists and trust me I've seen it all playing against so many tournament guys on tabletop simulator. The teleporting is seldom the issue honestly.. for me it really is just the amount of power they can put out in shooting alone and for how cheap everything is, they can easily have 4-6 threats on the board at a time which is absolutely absurd.
A lot of buffs aren't even spell casts, but just straight up abilities or things spent with CP of which they will have a near infinite supply of with Kroak\Starmasters who will be safely tucked away in a corner of the board to where I can seldom even have 30" range Jezzails able to hit him; not before they get blown off by similarly long-ranged Bastiladons. I've taken a break from Skaven as Kroaks spell alone makes it near impossible to do much as he can easily just kill off all my 5 wound wizards if they get a double turn which cripples my biggest hammers.
Anyway, I don't want to rant about Seraphon as I've kept it pretty much to myself... people know what the problem with them is, but thanks to COVID we haven't had any real tournament info to go off and GW don't look at Tabletop Simulator despite some pretty large\major tournaments happening there where they've done exceptionally well, as well as KO. I know their rules writers are numerous and I often wonder how the communication is in the office.. far too often it seems things get fixed for Faction A but then Faction B's update has basically the same thing for better or worse just like you're describing... Oh well. I think as Tzeentch, we honestly have a good set of tools to deal with them, especially since we can usually beat them on drops and strike first.-
2
-
-
14 hours ago, Coyote said:
List for discussion
x4 Grey Seer in Bell
x3 - 40 Clanrats
x1 - 40 Stormvermin
Well, it's interesting I'll give you that 😅. I just don't think there's enough punch to get much done.. although I'm starting to think that we may see a Warpseer come back into lists. Had one I've been thinking about with the only 2 threats being Stormfiends + Grinder Team and 40 Monks.. if I actually get a chance to play it this weekend I'll get a report up, but I've been pretty stuck on Tzeentch when I have been able to play the last 3 weeks.
For your list though... I mean, who needs a Warpseer when you have 4 Bells? If you really wanted him then statistically you have a decent chance at bringing him on anyway 🤣 -
6 hours ago, RUNCMD said:
Finally got time to read the Seraphon Battletome.
LOL
My main thing I can think of is just try and take out the Heros and bunker down on objectives (contextual to scenario)
That Teleporting though! Does anyone know if they can teleport out of Combat at all?
That's about the best way to describe it, yes.
Generally that's what you need to do; on paper the units aren't great but the buffs make them great. The biggest lists going around now are usually run + double-shooting Bastiladons, large units of Skinks buffed to throw out 20+ damage each in shooting alone (the majority of those being MW's) and of course your typical howmanysalamanderscanIfitinasinglelist type builds... although these seem to be losing popularity for the above, but you'll still see people take at least 1-2 units of 3. Lucky for us, Bastiladons are easily killed with MW's... unlucky for us, with most things being a Chaos Daemon they do more damage against us.
The issue for me generally stems from Kroak\Starmaster who sit in a the corner of the board somewhere and you'll find it difficult to get to them and they'll just sit back there and throw out unbinds at you all day since it's board-wide for them 🙄. The best lists I've seen against them have literally just been your standard Changehost Conflag lists with Flamers which basically just tried to outdrop them and do to them what they're going to try to do to you; blow as much stuff off the board as possible early on so they can't score. And yes, they can teleport out of combat.-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, Kopfnussklopfer said:
Im a 100% noob, just painting and building my first AoS army
I already have alot of deamons (horrors, screamers, flamers and so on), but i wanted to add a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
First off all, what do you think about him in general? I thought his spell would be great together with Kairos.
2. If i use the Sorcerer on Manticore, i thought about using his passive, so i need some Slaves to darkness
The warscroll i liked the most are the Iron Golems. They have an Melee and a Ranged attack, which they can both use in Melee, right?
Then, if they dont move, i can reroll 2 times their saves (together with the Manticore)? Sounds good to me, please tell me why I am wrong
Been using him a lot recently (see list above) to great success.. and yeah, with Kairos it's a pretty great spell and you have something else that can kind of fight in CC if needed. To be honest though, I've mostly made up my mind about dropping him for the time being as he doesn't really do anything for the lists I run him in and while the spell is quite good, it can also be very swingy and Treason of Tzeentch tends be good enough for horde-clearing. Just note that I speak from a competitive\tournament point of view with mostly anything I say so.. if you don't care about that then don't mind me 😅
For your 2nd question, no.. missile weapons are only used in the shooting phase. And no to the 2nd part of that question as you can never re-roll a re-roll. To be honest, if you want to include a punchy Slaves to Darkness unit, 10-20 Chosen are really good, especially if paired with a normal Chaos Sorcerer Lord on foot as he can give them re-rolls to all saves, hits and wounds.-
1
-
-
4 minutes ago, simakover said:
so any changes to this list needed?
and can you share youre duplicitous list ?I think it's fine.. I would try to get some games in and see how it works for you; a net list can only take you so far and if you only play locally then it may not work as well as something more tailored to your meta.
This is normally what I use, but I've been experimenting with dropping the Manticore and 10 Acolytes for a unit of 10 Pinks and a Magister on Disc for another spell that can throw out a Chaos Spawn. The Manticore is really just there to give the casting RR's for all the other Wizards on top of being a decent beatstick in combat that things can't run away from.. but potentially throwing out 2 Spawns a turn will keep a lot of things held up anyway and then all I'm losing is an anti-horde spell, but the Skyfires and Treason of Tzeentch usually take care of weak hordes anyway 😉SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
-
14 minutes ago, simakover said:
like this?
Lord of Change (380)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
Changehost (180)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)hm, looks odd. that changecaster and scribes will cast? gemenids looks better then vortex but costs a lot
Pretty much. Geminids are nice and I tend to use them now over the Daemonrift when I run Be'lakor or a Sorcerer Lord in my magic based Hosts Duplicitous list. The thing with the Changecast is he's.. more or less the hero-killer. On that Balewind he's throwing out 2 different d6 MW spells (and an Arcane Bolt if you cast one of the former on a 9+'s which give's him another Spellcast) from 24" away.. which works out nicely with the Blue Scribes RR's if you choose to use it.
Be'lakor works in this setup to just shut off something threatening, but I generally like the 2 Wizards paired with the tabling ability of 12 Flamers. My "main" Hosts Duplicitous list is a little more grindy in the sense that it uses Geminids and Be'Lakor and other means to give things -1 to hit or wound so you can shut off a lot of threats while you generate FP to summon in Blues with every turn. -
Just now, simakover said:
sadly but im dont have bridge, can you recomend me list for open meta? have belakor, demonrift and all models for daemons tzeentch
You don't need bridge for Changehost\Eternal Conflag to work, I was just saying that I prefer having it but that's personal choice. The template for Changehost is pretty much that list above; 12 Flamers, 1-2 Exalted Flamers, LoC and 1-2 other Wizards (usually a Blue Scribes and Changecaster) and Pinks\Blue\Brims as needed to fulfil the battalion requirement. Fatemaster works well in that list if you want to go that route in place of the 2 other Wizards.
Usually Changehost just revolves around tabling your opponent while zoning out any surviving threats with Horrors; it's rather point and click and having a Soulscream Bridge just makes it even more-so, but it isn't a requirement. I do like Be'Lakor a lot but never ran him in Changehost\Eternal Conflag lists.. Daemonrift is great, you just really have to be careful with it. Luckily, a LoC\Kairos can dispell it right after you cast it to make sure it doesn't fly back at you. -
7 hours ago, simakover said:
is this list best for tournament play? looks like its best fit, but lack of endlesses worry me
Nothing is "best" but I would say it's pretty solid.. personally I like to have a Soulscream Bridge in my Eternal Conflag lists as well as more Wizards over the Fatemaster and that performs just as well\better than this does. I just took that list from someone who has been playing TTS tournaments and doing reasonably well with it as an example of something with the Fatemaster. Having the Bridge alongside Changehost just gets you in range to blast 2-4 units off the table right away and hope to get a double turn.
I really don't think Endless Spells are something that Tzeentch players should feel like something they need to have. I really find the only things used are the Balewind (almost exclusively to put a Changecaster or Blue Scribes on top of), Bridge, Spellportal and Geminids\Darkfire Daemonrift. -
16 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Can the DoT Take Slaves to Darkness Batallions (the Tzeentch one)?
Yes, we can.
-
1
-
-
13 hours ago, aktanolt said:
Hi guys,
Coming back to my skaven since i've finished painted my 15K army point of seraphon
I got a good army base and i know what i want to play but dont know what would works best to finish up the list. Goal is to have a competitive list as i'm a big tournament player but also want some stuff that can be quite fun to play too ( wheel / canon ... overall skryre stuff) Overall i'm not a fan of pestilens stuff and i really love Skryre clan. Also dont like jezzails
Here is the core of the list , missing Thanquol / warp grinder to buy and build.
Allegiance: Skaventide
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Thanquol on Boneripper (390)
- 4 Warpfire Braziers
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Doomflayer Gauntlets
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
Total: 1510 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
So i got 500 point to fill . Also would love opinion on Thanquol , i love him in terms of lore / rules but never really have chance to play him so far.
Thanks for the advices and have a nice evening
Welcome back first off. Secondly, if you don't like Jezzails but want to stay tournament competitive, I think you're pretty much forced into Cannons as they're still more consistent at their job (killing support heroes\behemoths) than Doomwheels are. Having played lists with 2-4 Doomwheels in them, I've yet to see them perform very well in a consistent manner and the Cannon has always just done better for me.. I wouldn't say by much though. Personally I'd rather just run 12 Fiends as the Windlauncher shots (fully buffed) tend to do about the same damage as 6 Jezzails.
Anyway, you can throw in 40 Stormvermin here since you also don't like the cheaper alternative in Plague Monks 😉. With that you have 3 threats in Thanquol, the Fiends and Stormvermin. Thanquol is... okay. I still find him a tad overcosted and while he seems great in CC, he gets exploded just as easily as anything else and you would likely have better results out of 4 Warpfire Projectors even when shooting at units of 6-12 models. At top bracket, a pure melee Thanquol maybe pushes out 11 wounds against a 4+ save while 4 Warpfires against a unit of 6 can do anywhere from 8-15 MW's.. and likely straight up delete nearly any horde in the game, even 20 HGB units (or at least leave only a handful remaining).
Here are my concerns however: With only 1 Engineer, if he gets taken out your Stormfiends are, no exaggeration, next to useless. They go from throwing out ~35 damage on average in shooting to only doing ~8. Generally, we run 2 at a minimum for redundancy. Don't let this detract you from using them, you just have to be careful with it. You have Skitterleap to get the Engineer up there next to the Fiends, but if you take Stormvermin you don't have any way of buffing them for +1 attack or Death Frenzy; the combination of which is what elevates them over 40 Plague Monks (who only get Death Frenzy and nothing extra unless you bring a Furnace). -
@Kharl I'd say another Exalted to allow you to split off the Flamer units if you need to and retain the +1 to hit.. although you'll probably want to keep them within the aura of mutability most of the time anyway.
Running some Brims to sit on home objectives\zone out your backline aren't bad ideas either though, but ideally I would want 2x10 for that purpose which you couldn't afford.-
1
-
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted · Edited by Gwendar
So, I had the full intention of running Skyshoal tonight, but I've been pretty deep into making Cult of a Thousand Eyes work. Played against an experimental Skaven list but it wasn't long enough to do a full batrep.. so I'll just put some pictures below. Anyway, here's the list:
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Cult of a Thousand Eyes (Host of Chaos)
Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Tzeentch is Pleased
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Artefact: Crown of Whispers
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Battleline
40 x Chaos Marauders (320)
- Axes & Shields
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 10x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Varanguard (280)
- 3x Ensorcelled Weapons
3 x Varanguard (280)
- 3x Ensorcelled Weapons
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137
I out-dropped and gave him T1 since I was out of range of any significant shooting; all he could do was kill 10 Kairics and give me 2 FP. I did what this list does best and that's pump 1 unit full of buffs and go to town, so I chose the Marauders. They got full Hit, Wound and Save RR's and then +1 attack with the agenda and 26 did ~45 damage after saves.. of course it was only Clanrats, so make of that what you will. VG killed a Doomwheel after fighting it twice and almost killed the Bombardier behind it. Enlightened went below average and killed 23 Clanrats. I got the double and he called the game.
deployment + end of game (T1) pictures
I like the idea of this, but even after 1 game I can see it struggling with pretty much anything top-tier. 3 VG just do not do enough for their points even when RRing hits and fighting twice. Swords and Spears math out differently but not by much.. either way I think I would be better off taking just one unit of 40 Marauders or 10 Knights with a Sorc Lord than trying to make Cult work with lots of these units. At that point you would mostly be running StD units anyway.
All in all I think I can put the idea to rest, but it was good to get some play experience with it. I do still really like the idea of 10 Knights + Sorc Lord.. but when it comes down to it their tradeoff is 6 more wounds with a better save (especially with RRing all saves from the Sorc Lord) and a 5+ vs MW's but they are slower. In terms of power, both units want the +1 attack but even Enlightened without the +1 attack still do more... but only marginally so and you get a sturdier unit for 110 more points (counting the Sorc Lord) so.. make of that what you will, I suppose😉
Anyway, thoughts are always appreciated it. Next time I play I'll probably run the Skyshoal and see how it goes.
EDIT: @RUNCMD looks like you posted the same time as me so I'll edit a response here.
I enjoy Chosen, but I've only used them with a Bridge to deliver them where they're needed. 1st one is interesting.. generally we (or at least I do) build wholly into the Covens strengths. I can see taking Flamers in Arcanum, but in Pyrofane I would much rather but those points into more Kairics and Withfyre Coven if I wanted to make something shooty. I do the same thing with my Pyrofane of Strong magic + decent shooting + 1 melee threat (Chosen or Enlightened).. or you know, 6 Skyfires because I love them.
The 2nd list is different for sure.. curious how it works for you. If I do Conflag it's just always 12 Flamers + Changehost and I can't really bother trying anything else🤣