Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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5 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
Giving you turn 1 and also the spawns coming in! Love the Kairos combo with Magister on Disc.
Couldn't agree more. The Aura on the flamers is well worth it because I shoot with the Exalted first into the Horde/dangerous units, then with flamers still getting the buff on the Exalted. The 2+ to hit is fantastic, but having no rend makes it a lot easier to save against. I def see your point though on whether or not taking the Aura is worth it... thing is though, given the Hero's I have it's really only viable to give the Fatemaster an Artefact which is the Spiteful Shield (giving the DD on a 6 to save) which is also nice I guess... and possibly worth it, but I also don't get him into too many combat situations if I'm honest, because I'm trying to leaverage him for his movement / summoning... But you're making me think @Gwendar and wanting to play more games lol.
And that in combination with Skyfires means you really gotta be careful of placement. I try to build lists with the idea that I don't care if you give me T1 or not, but that one really goes deep into that idea. I see a lot of people playing those spells wrong though and setting up the Spawn within 3" of the last slain model which can usually means it's dead that combat phase.. but since it just needs to be within 3" of the unit you can literally place it anywhere and keep them and potentially other units around it from moving or shooting at anything but it.
Well, you could always just give your Fatemaster the Paradoxical Shield for some shenanigans that I described previously.. you basically get him on a 2+ save all the time (barring rend obviously) which is nice since people will want to kill him to stop the RR's.. then you can just give Chainfire to whoever else. -
30 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
@Gwendar my only feedback is really on your Arcanum list, and swapping out the Chaos Knights for Chaos Chosen, and for the sole reason of Base Size and being able to maximize the output. I think the Base Size of the Knights in a block of 10 is not really worth it, for 10, but two blocks of 5 is. Getting the Chaos Chosen in though and maximizing their output is even better, especially if with the extra points you took a bridge to get them where you want? Also, the sorc on foot would be able to keep up with them easier than the Knights.
Most interested to see how your Duplicitous list goes! Looks tasty and fun as! Also if you got all spells off, double turn and then summon in another two units of Blue or unit of Pinks thats just awesome! I'm finding that Blues are the best bang for buck in terms of summons at the moment with the magic heavy lists. Also love seeing Chaos Sorc Lord on Manticore in any Tzeentch list! Spesh with Kairos!
Yeah, I've ran that exact list before in Duplicitous with 2x10 Chosen, Sorc Lord and Chaos Lord for fight-twice and, yeah Bridge which I think is almost required by comparison with how slow they are. I enjoyed it just because 10 Chosen can easily put out 20-30 damage with at least 10 of these being MW's and the other unit is there as backup and can take the +1 hit agenda or something. The "theoretical" damage on Knights is obviously higher but.. the issue's are exactly what you've stated and if they don't wipe a unit in 1 go then the lances turn into noodles. I'll give them a shot with Lances and another with Swords and see how they do.. I can't directly swap them without sacrificing some other stuff but you've definitely made me rethink it.
100% agree with Blues though.. I only ever save for Pinks if I feel I'm in a position to, but 10 Blues are usually there when I need them, if that makes sense. Kairos + Be'laor is just nuts on it's own for the ability to shut down 2 units. The Manticore gives a little more punch with Infusion since he'll probably be getting stuck into something weak to tie it up. Combine that with 2 Chaos Spawn a turn and Pinks\Blues and.. yeah, it has the potential to play objectives pretty well and keep units frozen in place. Like most things in this game though it can get really hurt by shooting heavy armies.. a big reason I like to take 6 Skyfires is because it forces my opponent to second guess giving me T1; they can outrange my spells, but those 6 Skyfires will more than likely be able to kill any hero\chaff unit they want if I go 1st which isn't something you can really do with Enlightened as well.
15 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:Any and all feedback is appreciated / welcomed! Still tweaking it atm, but i'll mostly be sticking to the above and tweaking as needed.
Side note: Previous list has included x6 Flamers and 1 Exalted, hiding behind a line of Kairics and also coupled with the Fluxmaster, which instills a lot of fear as well, but it doesn't really cut the mustard too well I have found, albeit I could be playing it wrong.
Plenty of good points there altogether and I'm pretty inclined to agree... I think you always need at least 1 unit of 30 Kairics but I've liked 2x30, I do see plenty going for 30-20-10 like you have though.
A few things though; do you really feel like Aura is going to help that much with only the Pinks benefitting from it? It usually gives them another 2-3 damage but that's about it. I think if you kept the 6 Flamers and Enlightened it would be worth it, but not sure in this regard.. of course both options outside of Conflag without that -1 rend feel a bit worse anyway. I will say though, I do enjoy a LoC just because he can actually do quite a bit of damage with that Artifact; he consistently throws out 2-4d3 MW's everytime he shoots and has a nice spell\utility to boot.. but yeah, I don't think he's necessary.
Curious to hear how it goes for you.. I'm currently trying to get some games scheduled for tomorrow if all goes well.. just realized I haven't wrote a batrep since August so I gotta fix that 😅 -
Got a 1 game per week 2k league starting today with the ability to change lists per opponent. Now, I probably won't do that as I want to develop all-comers lists rather than tailor... but I think these are some variants I will be running throughout.
Duplicitous full-casting:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 80A new iteration on my magic-based Duplicitous builds.. swapping out Skyfires for more bodies and Wizards to generate even more bodies. Not much forward board presence, but interested in trying it out nonetheless. If it doesn't work after a couple games, I'll probably switch back to the Skyfires at the cost of some Pinks and the Sorc Lord or something as that's consistently done better anyway. "Ain't broke don't fix it" kind of thing 😉
Arcanum Chaos Knights:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
Units
10 x Chaos Knights (320)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99Definitely more experimental in nature... I'm kind of splitting focus here which means this is the most likely list to get tweaked. I initially had it with no LoC and a Pink. Lord of Change + Kairos in Hosts Arcanum means you can use the 6" extra movement at the start of the game on them to get all those 18" spells in range of something if an opponent deploys poorly.
Eternal Changehost (with Bridge!):SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Battalions
Changehost (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulscream Bridge (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82
So I mean... yeah it's a Changehost with Flamer spam, but it has a Bridge. I've talked about it a lot but not sure if it was ever posted. While I will almost always be choosing who goes first, the Bridge does allow everything to teleport right up the board and get the Flamers in range.. so it kind of works like most CoS lists that take 20+ Irondrakes across a Bridge. I wouldn't say it relies on a double turn but it definitely really wants it in which case it can almost always seal the game then and there. Scribes can auto-cast Bridge on a 2+, Flamers delete 1-2 units at a minimum and Kairos + Balewind Changecaster have plenty of range to MW off 1-2 Heroes.
Don't know that I'll bring the Flamer list that often.. but my plan is to get at least 1 batrep in with each list. First up is against Idoneth, so not sure which to choose in that instance, but I think the control based casting list would be the most interesting to try in that scenario. Been another slow workday so I figured I would just drop these here for some more discussion 😅-
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53 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
@Gwendar thx! I didnt immagine that. So if enemy hit fatemaster wirh paradox shield in melee. If he deal 3 wounds at -1 rend . I roll : 1,2,3 . I pass two saves (2,3) , but i have to reroll , my results are 1,2. Only one wound pass (1) . Is it right?;) thx a lot
Well, technically you would fail all of them and you wouldn't reroll them since they didn't succeed. All in all though, yes only 1 wound would go through because of the natural 1 you rolled. Let me try to break it down for you:
1. When you make saves, you always roll for your unmodified save, which in this case is a 4+. If you rolled a 1, 2 and 3, then you would fail all 3.
2. Rerolls now come into play, but since you failed all 3, you wouldn't "reroll any successes" from the Paradoxical Shield because none of them succeeded.
3. After rerolls, you apply modifiers (-'s and +'s to your save). This would mean that you apply your +4 to save and their -1 rend which altogether is +3 to your save.
4. Since natural rolls of 1 always fail before modifiers then even though you have a 1+ save you would still fail on any rolls of 1. The 2 and 3 you rolled would both pass, so you take 1 wound total (from the 1 that you rolled).
Luckily, GW has shifted away from RR'ing "failed" rolls because that makes the whole interaction even more of a pain. Anyway, it's still something I have to break down to my local guys every now and then because it's natural to just say "okay so that's -2 rend and I have a 3+ save so I need to roll 5's". That's fine to do so long as there are no RR's involved. Hopefully all that made sense 😅-
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23 hours ago, Ganigumo said:
How unrealistic would it be to pimp out a Magister instead? I'd need to roll a double, but I could have the Magister attempt to cast balewind, cogs, and his warscroll/Lore spell. Plus I could take an extra endless spell (maybe tome of eyes) or a command point.
1 wizard can only attempt to cast 1 Endless spell per turn, so he couldn't do Balewind and Cogs in the same turn if that's what you were implying. The Magister is okay, but I've had the best success with the Disc version in Hosts Duplicitous where it can summon a Chaos Spawn with it's spell and that's pretty great when Kairos is doing the same thing. I feel like if you're going to have Enlightened and Skyfires, it makes more sense to have a Shaman with them.
If you want a casting turret, the Changecaster makes more sense on a Balewind (Pink Fire and Bolt of Tzeentch means 2 different d6 MW spells at 24") and only needs to roll a 9+ to cast another spell and doesn't have a chance of exploding.
20 hours ago, Tizianolol said:In melee how it work? Its +4 on save roll?
I assume you're talking about the Fatemaster? He already gets a 2+ save in melee vs anything that can't fly or has the monster keyword. Put Paradoxical Shield on him and you get +4 to saves in melee (Paradoxical Shield gives +2 to all saves) but you have to RR all successes. In effect that means that if something was hitting him with 0 rend, he would only fail on 1's.
Against shooting the Paradoxical Shield would give him +2 and have him doing the same thing; only failing on 1's assuming 0 rend. I hope that makes sense? Just remember when you roll saves you apply RR's first and then modifiers which is very important in working out the above. Many people modify the save in their head first but really you should be rolling your natural save and then modifying it after you RR any dice if you have the ability to do so.
7 hours ago, simakover said:Hello, is there some good magic oriented list for tourney tzeentch? Im know that flamers are meta choice, but im want good magic based list with endlesses and pinks
I run this more than anything and I have pretty good success with it:
SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
Now, if you want you can easily sub out the Skyfires and 10 Acolytes for another 10 Pinks and that would leave you at 1720. You can more Pinks or another Wizard and some Blues or something like that. I like having the Skyfires (or Enlightened if you want to go melee heavy against tougher units) to have another source of hero removal and it gives me a fast unit that can clear off lightly held objectives or go on the offensive pretty well against any 1 wound 5-6+ save type of units.
It's a heavily magic based list where the whole goal really is to generate FP to keep up blues\pinks. Be'lakor + Kairos is a pretty nutty combo as they can both shut down units while there is a collective -2 to hit and wound that can be thrown out here as well. On top of all that, enemy units can't retreat from anything they're in combat with which means the 1-2 Chaos Spawn you're throwing out per turn can easily keep units pinned down and unable to move.
Alternatively I've been thinking of trying this in Hosts Arcanum as you can shunt forward Kairos and\or a Lord of Change 6" and be in range to hit stuff with their spells without the need for a Spellportal.. but that's still in the theorycrafting stages 😉 -
42 minutes ago, Warmill said:
Ah I meant arcane suggestion for the -1 to hit and wound, it's awesome on 40 skinks as they're basically totally gimped 🤣
I think yeah the battalion is a bit too much and I'll try keeping the extra enlightened and just squeeze in a balewind, I'm not worried about being 100% top tier as this army is a painting project, I'd just like to optimise it based on what I like about the army.
Ah, yeah Arcane Suggestion is wonderful, especially in combination with Geminids and Be'lakor. That said if they're buffing the Skinks to do MW's on unmodified 6's (which is generally the case) then it won't really do much to them.
@Tizianolol None of the artifacts they can take are amazing by any means, but I think Paradoxical Shield on the Fatemaster would be humorous since he would be on a 2+ in melee and shooting with that.-
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1 minute ago, Warmill said:
Yeah as I say I've only played 2 games as tzeentch, I do like the combat potential of the enlightened so I would be sad to lose that, but then I figure 3 is enough to snipe heroes?
The issue I've found after 2 games is everything is 18" range so if the opponent hangs back they can really limit the effect of a round of spells and shooting, and spell portal only goes so far. To be honest I'm not totally sold on the battalion at 160 points but the rerolls on the summoner to help get arcane transformation might make the difference. Either way I can't wait to get a lot of games in to test it out!
No worries! It's tough to say... 3 Enlightened could do that but if you wanna kill those 5-6 wound support heroes then you already have a Lord of Change + Portal and his 18" shot with Chainfire Amulet can put out a decent amount of mortals. Personally I would much rather have a unit of 6 who can actually deal with an equally strong threat, like 20 Hearthguard, 30 Witch Aelves... etc, etc.
As for the range issue, that's just kinda commonplace really. People should always be premeasuring to stay out of range, but they likely can't do that the whole game. Pyrofane + Witchfyre is okay, but it isn't top-tier by any means as it's mostly just a quantity of low quality shots. I meant to ask about Arcane Transformation though.. who did you plan to cast that on? I'm not sure if you were aware but you can only give the buff to a Hero, which isn't entirely useful since none really benefit from +1 Bravery, movement or +1 attack. -
@Warmill I always say it's worth testing a list 3-5 times against different armies before you change anything. Has it worked out at all for you? What glaring issues have happened if not?
Personally I like having 6 Enlightened.. lets them keep their hitting power up a bit longer\better since they will likely get hit before they can attack and having 3 is risky. I usually go 6 or none at all because of that reason. I don't know that the GS needs a BW but yeah that 12" range is tough.. I guess if your meta is running a lot of Hordes then it would probably be worth it? Those 6 Enlightened are probably just as likely to wipe said horde unit though if you give them the +1 attack agenda and charge the side of a unit to limit what can pile into it. -
2 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
Ok thx a lot! I love this liat because is a mix of magic shooting and melee damage. Conflag flamer list are only shooting right?
Yeah.. it's an interesting mix of things for sure. But yeah.. typically if you're going Eternal Conflag then you're usually building for Changehost and 100% getting at least 12 Flamers and 1-2 Exalted into a list. Generally you can then afford some Horrors (10-20 Pinks and the rest Brimstone\Blues) and 2 other Wizards not including the Lord of Change just to hit that 8 daemon units requirement.
If you don't go Changehost, then you can save some points and build some melee threat or stack more wizards if you want. 12 Flamers and an Exalted is 660 points and you can build however you want after that.. but the 1-drop battalion is part of what makes it so powerful as you can beat out nearly every other army on drops and always decide who goes first. Not to say other builds with more threats couldn't do just as well of course.-
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@holyark With what you have I think that's just fine really. Things like Stormvermin and Plague Monks want to be in units of 40 to make use of our horde bonuses to hit\wound and to some extent the bravery buff.. but auto-passing battleshock is generally the better choice.
In the command trait\artifact side of things, for that list it's kind of tough. Yes to Master of Magic since you have no need for Deranged Inventor on the Engineer. Between Skavenbrew and Vigordust, you'll get about the same damage from them and both will require them to take d3 MW's. Skavenbrew edges out ever so slightly but Vigordust could help guarantee a charge and give you +1 to hit if you would prefer to have that.. which can help since as soon as they drop below 20 they'll start hitting worse. -
58 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
Ye , so basically with my mod and yours suggestions list should be
Add :
fatemaster and 1 CP
Remove :
orgroid. And arcane suggestions on tz shaman seems 100 % better then bolt!
tot 1990
@RUNCMD fatemaster CA is 9" range and tz unit must be "wholly within". Seems hard buff 30 acolytes with only 9" range. Am i missing something? Im new to TZ !
Right, which is basically what I had\suggested originally 😉
As for the Fatemaster, I'll let RUNCMD give his take but I figured I'd pop into TTS and give an example. You can fit all of them in pretty easily and the back ranks don't lose too much range.. maybe 1-2.5 inches at most?
Below is a picture.. and not sure if you can see the green circle, but all 30 Acolytes are wholly within 9" and the back rank is just within range to shoot the Karic's in front of them. You have to keep in mind this is more of a short-range quanity of shots rather than a teleporting Conflag Changehost list where the 12+ Flamers will do twice as much in a shorter burst.Spoiler
Now, obviously you won't be getting 2 units of 30 in really, but the idea is 1 unit of Kaircs does most of the heavy lifting while the others can still plink out damage elsewhere. Pyrofane lists are fun.. but if you want 10/10 best shooting that wipes units you would want to look at Conflag Flamers 😉
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54 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
What do you think about remove:
- fatemaster
- changecaster
- balewind and additional CP
Add :
-ogroid thaumaturge with power infusion
- tzaangor shaman with bolt of tzeentch
tot 1980
Tz shaman buff its a good way to make tz on disc damage output better , with bold he can be very scary. Ogroid can tank in melee, he dont die very easy with his spell , with PI he can be more scary in close combat!! What do you think @Gwendar and guys about that?:)
Yeah, what @RUNCMD said.. I think the Fatemaster is an autoinclude in that list and not something that is up for consideration to trade out.
Ogroid is a fun option, but I wouldn't say competitive. He's not actually all that tanky and if anything wants to kill him they'll have a fairly easy time of it. I agree that speed and buff ability is better and the Shaman will directly benefit the Enlightened\Skyfires as well as giving you a very fast summoning platform for you to run him across the board and summon on top of an objective if you have the opportunity.. which honestly is how you'll find that you win games a lot of the time, or at least easily ensure a tighter grip on the VP 😉
I wouldn't take Bolt on the Shaman just because you'll get more use out of Arcane Suggestion to debuff whatever the Enlightened are going to charge which will lessen the wounds they take before they get to attack (since you want them having the RR's). He's not really there to be scary, you have a LoC (Chainfire Amulet makes his shooting put out a decent amount of MW's on good rolls), lots of shooting and Enlightened for that. -
4 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
@Gwendar excuse me if i ask too mutch, have you a competitive list with witchfyre coven battalion? Thx alot!:)
Never.. I'm sure everyone here can see that I enjoy talking Tzeentch (probably too much) so I don't mind. Now, I've only ran this a couple of times so there may be better ways to run it.. I haven't really combed over it in detail to see if anything can\should be changed. Once I'm done fine-tuning Skyshoal I'll probably go back to it.
Pyrofane\Witchfyre:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult
Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
Battleline
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
Battalions
Witchfyre Coven (160)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
I think if I would change anything then it may be to drop the Changecaster and Balewind for a Shaman. That combo is harder to make good use of when you don't have RR's from Duplicitous or Blue Scribes.
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7 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Those look great! Thanks a lot man.
I really like the idea of the Manticore for the horde clear spell, and as you say he is a reasonable threat on his own. Im surprised none of them start with Pinks on the table. I would probably switch Skyfires + Acolytes for Pinks so you have a massive fortress for all your casters, but I can see the long reach from Skyfires being attractive. I would be tempted to switch the Geminids for either Lifeswarm for more Pinks or the S2D endless spell that I currently cant remember the name of..
Like I said, you can do that, but I think having some forward board presence to contest backfield objectives is pretty valuable in a list that really just wants to sit around on it's own and slowly push into your opponents. Basically, it just allows you to apply pressure somewhere else instead of it all being focused on a singular point.
Lifeswarm could be valuable if you ran 10-20 Pinks I guess, but I think you need the damage and debuffing more since you can just summon more with the Command Ability if they die or from FP's. I used to run Darkfire Daemonrift as you can use it pretty safely with Kairos' ability to just dispell it right away but I just recently tried Geminids and I enjoyed it for their debuffs. Both are super valid spells so it's your choice.-
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44 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Yeah this is the kind of stuff I like! I realize it might not be for everyone, but I dont personally enjoy the playstyle of just having a brawl in the middle of the table. I find controlling the game/movement of my opponent to be a lot more interesting and fun, even if it might create a headache for my opponent. 😅
Could you either link me to a similar list or do a quick and dirty mock-up for an idea of how such a list would look like?
Eh.. I enjoy running the 1 drop, 12 Flamer Conflag lists when people specifically ask for it but I would never dream of doing it to anyone unwilling to do so. It's pretty fun (for you) to just shoot everything off the board sometimes.. especially coming from a different army that you have to try a bit harder with to win 😅
People will have a more enjoyable time dealing with all the debuffs and magic damage than just straight up being blown off the table by teleporting Flamers. But sure, I'll just put my 2 versions below. The first I actually got from Kaleb Walters and have watched him play it multiple times.. guys a master with it. The 2nd is what I run now and I prefer it but both have their merits.
Duplicitous Manticore:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Duplicitous Magister\Horrors:SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)
Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
Now if you're a normal person, you would probably swap out the Skyfires for 6 Enlightened. I haven't ran it that way yet since the Skyfires work so well for me, but honestly having Kairos + Spellportal and a 24" range Changecaster with two d6 MW spells means you already have a pretty reliable way to kill those 5-6 wound support heroes at long range so the Enlightened would probably make more sense. Both lists can be throwing out 10+ spells a turn (Changecaster and Magister both can potentially cast more spells with their rules) so generally I'm just summoning Blues to steal or hold objectives unless I think I can afford another turn to get Pinks instead. The Manticore is good because it can stick around in combat (again, with nothing being able to retreat from it) for longer than you may think and put out reasonable numbers.. the 2nd list just gives you another Spawn but you're also losing out on the Manticores insane anti-horde spell.. so pick your poison.
You could also just replace the Skyfires\Enlightened with Pinks or more Kairics if you want to go that route.. the lists can be tough against some armies because you have so few screens to start with. The casting RR's help to clear a couple units a turn but I like having a speedy unit that can clear objectives up the board as this list generally plays pretty cagey and wants to stay out of big fights. With nothing being able to retreat from the Chaos Spawns you create 3" away then it can keep them locked in place even longer... not to mention all the -'s to hit\wound and Be'lakor doing his thing. Kairos can also just tell a unit "no thanks" by using his OPG ability to change a dice roll and just automatically deny a charge.-
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1 hour ago, Kasper said:
Thanks for the write-up of compential lists!
Have there been any control-like lists doing well lately? Im personally not a fan of the mass Flamers playstyle, but I rather like the idea of running Kairos + Be'lakor in an attempt to control the game. Maybe with Sorc on Manticore with Blue Scribes and in the summoning cult to summon on chickens.
The magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists I've ran before is relatively control based more or less. Be'lakor, Arcane Suggestion somewhere in the list, not being able to retreat from the 1-2 Chaos Spawns you can create per turn (and remember they only need to come within 3" of the unit that had models slain, not within 3" of the slain model) and Geminids works super well. You can easily stack -2 to hit and wound at a minimum on a unit and then Be'lakor can just shut down another for a turn.. if you could find a way to put a Changeling in then it could be even worse, but I don't find it necessary.
I've ran the version with the Manticore before and most recently I switched up that list for a Magister on Disc (another source of Chaos Spawns) and 10 Pinks over 10 Acolytes. Still debating if I want to run that or try out Skyshoal in an upcoming tournament 😅
44 minutes ago, Kharl said:@Gwendar out of curiosity, how do you decide who will take the 1st turn when playing an Eternal Conflagrations list?
Really just going to depend on the matchup, how your opponent is deployed and, to a lesser extent usually, the battleplan. When I do Conflag Changehost I run a Soulscream Bridge so I can get everyone in range pretty easily. If they premeasured to be out of that range T1 then I will give them the first turn to move closer.. or they can sit still and let me start taking board space with the risk of getting double-turned where they wouldn't be able to outrange me anymore.
If they allow me to get in range of 2-3 units that I can delete, then I'll take first turn. With the Blue Scribes, it's a pretty safe bet to get the Bridge off on his 2+ spell cast and it can't be unbound that way. Then you just have the Flamers and Wizards start chucking out damage like their no tomorrow.. you just want to do enough damage to their hammer units that they won't have much to eat through screens.
The only really tough matchup is against certain KO builds who can easily outrange you and start taking stuff off if they go first.. but again, there's a lot of factors involved.-
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43 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:
Ok thx it will be great! Im a StD player buy i wanna start DoT. I wanna test some lists in tts and aftrr i decide what is better for me! Is there a competitive list with a melee approach too? Maybe with ogroid ( i got model and i love him) !!:)
I ran Cult of a Thousand Eyes (which is actually a StD allegiance) but it really wants you to have more StD units than Tzeentch which is why I didn't care for it.. I think it's good for people like yourself who maybe want to get into Tzeentch but don't have a lot of Tzeentch specific stuff.
As for melee focused, unfortunately the only good melee unit we really have is Enlightened (on disc, in particular) and that's it as far as Tzeentch goes. If you look a page or two back we had some discussion on Tzaangors, but I still think they're overcosted for what they do. They're stuck between wanting to be a good screen and an actually hammer unit but don't do either incredibly well, in my opinion.. and Acolytes are better at shooting than anything else really.
Honestly, I think incorporating at least 1-2 Slaves unit isn't a bad idea in the slightest.. 10 Chaos Knights, 10 Chosen or 40 Marauders (who also happen to be battleline) can do a lot of work if they're given the Sorcerer Lords buff and\or Chaos Lords fight-twice ability. The spell is especially easy to get off in Tzeentch since you can just destiny dice the roll to ensure it goes off on a turn you need it to, just remember it can still be unbound. With any of these units, you're going to want to give them the +1 attack agenda for them completing a 9+ charge (can be destiny diced) but keep in mind that can only be used once.. next best thing is the +1 to hit you gain from wiping a unit with 9+ models.
If you plan to do TTS, I know myself and @RUNCMD both play so I'm always cool with helping you out and getting games in. I play various other armies too so I can always run them to prevent any mirror matches if that isn't your thing 😉. I'm part of a few discords were there's a lot of tactica talk and TTS games\tournaments happen all the time so if you (or anyone else) want invites just let me know.-
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2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:
Guys after last poimt change , what you sugggest as a competitive list? Are there good tournament tzeentch list ? Ty all!:)
There's quite a few actually.. we're lucky in that you can do a lot of competitive things with this book. Here's just a few things off the top of my head in short summary:
1. Eternal Conflagration + Changehost is the most popular tournament list but it won't win you any friends in more casual play. As a standard you're typically taking 12 Flamers and 1-2 Exalted Flamers.. fill the rest with Horrors, 1-3 wizards and maybe some endless spells.
2. Hosts Arcanum lists have started to crop up and have been doing exceptionally well.. but these are generally a bit more objective\movement based and less emphasis on "how many units can I kill per turn before they start scoring points".
3. Lesser options but still up there depending on the player and matchup are Pyrofane + Withfyre Coven for a shooty list that isn't quite as offensive as 12+ Eternal Conflag Flamers in a 1-drop Changehost... but still plenty competitive and generally leaves you some room to include a combat threat like Enlightened. I think Hosts Duplicitous is pretty competitive too, but it's generally more about bodies\objectives if you go the route of a few wizards, a bunch of Horrors (Pink in particular) and can even run it with Multitudinous Host for even more wounds for an opponent to chew through.
My favorite lists for competitive play so far are my magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists (casting RR's from the Command Trait) and Pyrofane.. but I'm hopping on board the Hosts Arcanum train this next month to see how it works. All of these can be built a bunch of different ways so I can provide some lists if you want just as examples. -
14 hours ago, Coyote said:
Question - Grey Seer in Bell -
If multiple bells, effects stack (if in range) right?
Lets say I have 3 Bells, it’s top of turn 1 and I roll a 7 individually for all 3 Bells.
Avalanche of Energy
They’re all within 26”’range of each other, So all three receive +3 (1+1+1) to cast any spells until end of that Hero phase, right?
Correct. All of the effects refer to "this model" so they would stack with each other.
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30 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:
@Gwendar and @SleeperAgent Tzeentch is my second army after Stormcast (got them when getting into the hobby) and they will be my staple/fall back to when I delve into others and go through similar motions you guys have described above! Something about Tzeentch that just nails it for me, much to what you described above with the Magic, Shooting and some Melee to boot! Also, apart from Flamers which ill admit im coming around to, the models are just awesome. Used to hate screamers now I just love the idea of sky sharks floating about biting everything!
Edit: @Gwendar Son's do look awesome! And I'd love one of the real huge ones to be able to be allied in to a Chaos army!
It's funny actually, when me and my GF first went to our local Warhammer store it was Tzeentch that I wanted, but ended up going to Skaven because of the Spire of Dawn\Isle of Blood set and she wanted Elves... happy with my choice in the end, but I love shooting\magic based armies more than anything so here I am 😉
They can actually, they showed a preview yesterday. Just super curious to see how their warscrolls look.. I'm more interested in running all 3 in a pure Sons list.. playing mostly hordes for so many years has me wanting something with low model count, even if it sucks:
Spoiler
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1 hour ago, michu said:
New 2000 pts list. What do you think?
Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Hysh (narrative purpose only)
Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 4x Standard Bearers
- 4x Plague Harbingers
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (420)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 182
2 CC threats and 9 Jezzails.. interesting, I like it. I would swap the Engineer for a Clawlord though 100%.. you really don't need 2 Engineers when you only have 9 Jezzails and all they really need is a Warpspark. Giving the Stormvermin +1 attack is infinitely more valuable and if you combine that with Vigordust you'd be setting them up for greatness.
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51 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:
Yeah I do this with a ton of armies. I've done FEC, OBR, S2D, IDK, BCR, Stormcast, Slaanesh, and Skaven. I try to buy armies that are ready to go, then re-sell em when I get tired of em. The only army I've kept running this whole time is Nighthaunt. Probably because there are a ton of ways to build it. That's why I like Tzeentch. Everything can be done so many different ways. I'm hoping when they start making new battletomes they standardize the "households" and battalion numbers. Cause Tzeentch and some others got a ton of them and stuff like KO got three battalions.
Yep, luckily nowadays I have a guy I can get 30% off from so at the very least I can sell it for what I bought it for. Skaven have been my main army since I started and that will likely never change.. and I think Tzeentch is in the same spot. Being able to go Shoot, Magic and Melee heavy in endless combinations has been incredible and a refreshing break from Skaven who really only have 2-3 viable builds based around the exact same thing and generally have to struggle to pull those off.
Next up is Sons of Behemat so.. I'm prepping my wallet there 🤣-
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3 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:
I always go all out and buy an entire army. That way you get a feel for the army in regular 2k matches. As it stands Im probably only gonna run 10 pinks. I will undoubtedly be doing Eternal Conflagration or Hosts Arcanum so my flamers or screamers are battleline.
I do the same honestly.. but a lot of the time it's meant I play something for 3-6 months and find that I don't really care for the playstyle and no amount of theory-crafting ended up providing me with how it feels to play. I did this with Wanderers and to some extent FeC and OBR.. most recently I've been up in the air above selling off my Fyreslayers (that I just finished painting...) as well because I can't stand how they play either 😅. I should probably invest in some display cabinets and just hold onto stuff in case it gets expanded on in the future...
Anyway, TTS has been huge for this as I can now test out armies and lists all I want before committing to anything with actual $$$. I'm with you on Pinks though.. I'm not big on them and really only like doing 10 but not more. That said a Hosts Duplicitous list with Multitudinous Host is absolutely a site to behold and difficult to deal with for most armies. I would never think to run it IRL because I would never punish myself to build, paint and transport that many Horrors. -
@RUNCMD I could probably give Thousand Eyes another look sometime, but if I wanted to run mostly StD then I would play StD 🤣
So yeah, for now I'll probably stick to Skyshoal + Hosts Arcanum and my magic\shooting based Pyrofane and Hosts Duplicitous lists. All for experimenting though, so if you want to play TTS just let me know.. I can always run Skaven or something else.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted · Edited by Gwendar
Hosts Duplicitous prevents units within 3" from retreating from any Hosts Duplicitous unit. So yeah, being able to summon 1-2 Chaos Spawn a turn just within 3" means they have to spend their shooting or combat phase trying to kill it, meaning they aren't shooting or charging at your other units. Just keep in mind you have to kill a model in order to summon it.. which Kairos can usually do with it being a flat 6 MW's to start, but the Magister on Disc is a bit more random with it being d3 MW's (and thus best used against 1-2 wound models to safely kill them and get the Chaos Spawn).
Be'lakor + Kairos is just really good at the shutdown game. Be'lakor's ability is a once per game thing that makes 1 unit unable to cast, move, charge or attack unless they roll a 5+ anytime they try to do any of those things. So if you think those 20 Hearthguard or 6 Stormfiends are going to move\charge\shoot at you when it's their turn, you can use that and hopefully shut them down completely for that turn.
Kairos works well in conjunction because he has a once per game ability to change a dice roll and it cannot be re-rolled or modified.. so usually that means if something rolls to charge and gets it, you could change a 6 to a 1 and potentially prevent it from charging. Combine the 2 of them and you have the ability to just say "no thanks" to 2 units doing anything to you for 1 turn.