Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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3 hours ago, Darkhan said:
Was this a melee only debuff? Or can they do that against shooting as well?
I believe it's -'s to hit in general, not just melee. The shining company rule gives them -1 and they get another from a spell if I recall.
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35 minutes ago, Darkhan said:
Tbh, I don't see the reason why everyone is taking stormvermin now in their list. Sure they got cheaper. But 400 points is a lot for a "chaf" unit. And imo, you want that clawlord. So 500p.
Sure, ill test it myself. But I really don't see this being a big WOW. Monks still a lot cheaper.
I'm just salty that they did not go down to 350p😂
I'm with you, but still wrote a couple lists with them just to test. I do not see them being the competitive choice when I get similar damage output from 40 Monks, of which I can bring 80 of for only 60 more points (if you include the obligatory Clawlord, as you said).
I'll be honest, after the TTS tournament this weekend and going 1-2 I'm heavily debating going back towards a Fiend\Monk\Jezzail list with Bridge. Double Warpgrinders has been working okay, but against anyone zoning them out it's hard to do anything significant with them and they'll just get deleted unless you get a double. In a tournament of 30-200+ people, you could fight a bunch of these meta lists or none at all; my Lumineth opponent got 3rd at LVO this year building towards handling OBR and he never played a single OBR player and 19 were present at the event.. so I'm trying to rethink how I list-built.
Speaking of my Lumineth opponent, the short summary to me is that Lumineth is a hard counter for us; they're weak against MW spam but with the FNP auras and multiple -'s to hit them.. it's rough when our stuff inherently hits on 4+'s and he was easily making the Monks hit on 5's or 6's even at 40. When 40 Monks crash into 2 different units of only 10 Wardens and kill 5 and 3 of them respectively it's just incredibly disheartening. Again though, with the -'s to hit then shooting at them isn't going to give much better results.. and then you have Teclis, but no reason to go into that again. Guy is an incredible player and being unfamiliar with Lumineth didn't help. -
Alright, here's a few lists with the new GHB changes in mind (and no, Warscroll Builder isn't updated; I manually changed the points) so thoughts are always welcome and wanted. I really considered 6-8 Rat Ogres with a MM\Packmaster.. but I still think they're too expensive for what they do. If they went down to 70-80 I would definitely consider them a lot more, but right now 40 Monks are just better and cheaper. With the Warpgrinder Monks list doing reasonably well, I feel like branching out a bit more so these are mostly very mixed lists. I've largely come to terms with Jezzails being taken in 6's for the sole purpose of 5-wound support hero sniping; 9 won't be enough to take out Kroak\Teclis\etc anyway and I would always need another unit of something to finish the job. That said, I think there's something in running 12 now... but I know I won't get the bits together again to make 3 more since the first 9 were a pain in the ass to begin with 😅
Anyway:
Warbginer+SV+Monks+JezzailsSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Brutal Fury
- Artefact: Things-Bane
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
Thanquol+Acolytes+SV+JezzailsSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Thanquol on Boneripper (390)
- 4 Warpfire Projectors
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd & Shield
Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (420)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
Thanquol+Fiends\Warpgrinder+JezzailsSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Thanquol on Boneripper (390)
- 4 Warpfire Projectors
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 154
Warpgrinder Monks+Warbringer+JezzailsSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Brutal Fury
- Artefact: Things-Bane
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Bell of Doom (40)
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 195
Warpgrinder Fiends+Monks+JezzailsSpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (280)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 167
So.. that last one is an alternate take on my current and something I doubt I would ever take to a major tournament. The 12" range on the Ratling Cannons means unless I go 2nd and get a double turn they would likely be dead against anyone smart enough to screen them off from shooting anything worthwhile. The 2nd to last above it is a more practical re-work of my current, swapping the Warpgnaw, Bombardier and 3 Jezzails out for a Warbringer, Extra CP, 20 Clanrats and Engineer. Nearly 200 wounds and access to DDF while the Warbringer can be about as killy as the Warpgnaw with Ghyrstrike. We'll see what the realm artifacts look like when the GHB releases, but without Ghyrstrike I don't see him being ran anymore as he would only average about 10 damage with Malevolent + RR1's to hit with a CP.
I think the strongest choice here in terms of well-roundedness is the 2nd with Thanquol + SV + Acolytes, but I do really enjoy the idea of the 1st if all goes according to plan. It would do well against CC fast armies that want to charge me T1 and get a double turn; double DF Stormvermin is a big deterrent on top of DF Monks. I enjoy my Warpgrinder list, so I may continue running it using the updated 2nd to last list.-
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What's this? A full batrep after nearly 5 months? Yeah.. I missed doing them. I didn't plan to do any during this TTS tournament but figured I would for this 2nd game vs "that" Seraphon list (12 Salamanders). I'll say that I definitely like this list, although with Ghyrstrike (confirmed?) gone then the Warpgnaw no longer has a place in my point of view. He's incredibly glass cannon already and losing the 2's\2's will hurt too much. Once the tournament is over I think I'll start theory-crafting some new stuff, maybe even with Stormvermin.
For those curious, 1st game was vs a StD list with Archaon. I royally flubbed it and it was over fairly quick. I went against my better judgement and tried to focus Archaon down to no avail, who then deleted Jezzails (who I had just close enough behind the Clanrats), Monks, Warpgnaw, etc since he can pile in multiple times. Dude was cool and a tournament Skaven player so we talked about a lot for about 30 minutes afterwards.. got a lot of useful insight from him 😉
Don't know who my 3rd game will be against until later tonight, but it looks like it may be between Lumineth, DoT, more Seraphon, CoS or KO on Battle for the Pass. I'll try to get another report up for the final game.-
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@Darkhan Yeah, absolutely silly things here. 40 Stormvermin + Clawlord is still a quarter of your list yet 2x40 Monks would get the job done better most of the time and cost marginally more. As for the minor decreases... yeah, they have a habit of changing one thing but upping something that goes together with it, effectively making a non-change. I would've gone back to running Acolytes if they changed back to 25mm, but currently they seem pointless.
Curious to see that WLV went down to 80; I could at least somewhat justify it now in my Thanquol setups.
@Skreech Verminking are you sure about that? I haven't seen that anywhere. Only that everything CoS and onward would get their points updates later.. my guess is either 2 weeks from now or during the 6 month FAQ's which would be this winter. Or maybe I read it wrong.. cause I think Seraphon got updates too. Oh well. -
@Skreech Verminking That's... incredibly disappointing and I'm not in the least bit surprised. The minor decreases seem odd and upping Engineers by 10 makes no sense when their one and only purpose is Acolyte\Fiend buffing which has gone downhill as a strategy due to the meta. Skaven haven't been performing super well so I'm not sure how these were thrown together.
Oh well.. there's a reason I said cautiously pessimistic 😉. The saddest part is that SV still aren't viable at 400 points compared to running 2x40 Monks, at least not for me. I may run them to try them out at least, we'll see. -
@Darkhan Oh I plan to be updating you all after each. It's 1 game a day (trying to make it spread across 3 days due to everyone being in different time zones so no one's playing at 4am) so I have time.. if there's a link for us streaming in discord I'll post it here for anyone that wants to watch.
Think I may actually switch the 2 WLC's (thus also dropping the NR's) to 9 Jezzails again in this particular instance despite saying otherwise a couple posts back. I spoke with a couple tournament guys and got a bit more feedback and that was both their suggestion.. so we'll see. Getting the teleporting Gnawhole shots with these long sight lines could be invaluable on top of the average damage being higher. Of course I'm most curious to see how the Monks do. It really depends on getting Cogs off or else I'll have to keep them in reserve another turn since there's no DF available to allow them to take a hit and hit back. Of course I gotta also hope I can roll a 6+ twice on 2d6 after that 😉
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8 minutes ago, Darkhan said:
@Gwendar I always use fiends with some kind of teleport. If not, I don't get the value out of them enough imo. Unless I'm playing against orruks.
I either do a Deceiver gnawbomb combo + skitterleap engineer. Or toss them with a grinder team, and skitterleap the general engineer with reroll hits trait.Or bridge (Not anymore tho cause of unit decrease). Actually, bridge might be ok if you screen them with some night runners with the 2xd6 pre move. Not tested tho.
A lot that needs to go the right way here..but hey;p
I thought about the 2x40 monks underground cause of tzeentch etc..how can I get a fair threat to not get T1 killed, and make the other player stress a little T3...hm..just put them underground😂
When all comes to all, our power is starting to get meeeeh compared to other armies. Really sad.
But I have some faith in 2x40 monks underground to be honest. You could also swap out the one of the cannons and warpgnaw for 9 jezzails if you want more range. I miss that second engineer with two cannons in your list:(
EDIT: Don't remove the warpgnaw, would be too bad if you could not cast cogs cause the engineer got killed haha.I just don't think it makes sense in this regard as I feel long range MWs is necessary and losing the WLC's isn't worth it. But yeah, a lot does need to go right in that scenario which is what I try to minimize; in this setup I really only need Cogs to go off which means the engineer will be sitting outside unbind as much as possible.
I agree though.. anti meta is fun to play obviously but I still feel incredibly weak by comparison which is why I've placed us around the low C to low B tier.
I think I'll submit the above though. Even if I roll average on 1 overcharged WLC + the normal shot from the other it would be doing around the same as 9 Jezzails. Hell, I could be real ridiculous and drop the WLC's and Engineer for 3 Doomwheels but that's approaching the ridiculousness territory. I need the Engineer specifically for the cast RR's but I definitely am excited for trying this out, although I'm not 100% confident altogether 😅
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10 minutes ago, Woodhell said:
As I said played something really similar to 1st si would be curious about it. I actually think also SF are great as pop out in thé current meta to kill big threat at once without being killed first
I've considered Fiends as well but it would be tight and I would need a 3rd Grinder for the Engineer (don't want to rely on a more expensive Grey Seer to get off Skitterleap) so for now this is what I'm considering after @Darkhan mentioned it:
SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Leaders
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Malevolent
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
10 x Night Runners (80)
Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 187
I could drop one of the Monk units and a Cannon, however I would need to also drop the other Cannon or something else to make room for the 3rd Warp Grinder if I wanted to use Fiends.
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1 hour ago, Darkhan said:
@Gwendar Have you thought about doing 2x40 plague monks underground with 2x grinders? Toss in cogs if you want for the 6+ charge.
Since it's TTS, perfect opportunity to try it out.
Objective snaggers T3/T4. People tends to forget stuff in reserve:)
Considered it, but felt the Fiends would be the better option against Kroaks/Teclis' or Kairos.. assuming they don't zone them out. I'm concerned with getting the cast off but you've definitely got me thinking about another version... I'll get to tinkering 😉
1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:Already?
they aren’t even out for sale yet, unless we’re talking about that 1box that probably has enough models for a 400point game.
Thx, although you came a bit late😂
Remember this is for Tabletop Simulator so people have already made models for the units, even if they're not all released yet. From the streams I've watched on the TTS discord for AoS, Teclis has been absolutely dominating as expected.
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Alright, registered for a TTS tournament this weekend and stuck between the following. It'll be Battle for the Pass, Scorched Earth and Total Conquest and Lumineth will be allowed:
Grinders/Fiends
SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142
Thanquol/Warpgnaw:
SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Leaders
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Malevolent
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- 4 Warpfire Projectors
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Doomwheel (160)
Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 167
The 1st is experimental and dunno that I could change much of anything, but the 2nd is my current go to template and thus could be changed around. For example, I could drop the CP and the DW and bring a Bombardier to buff one of the WLC's on top of having a chancy 2d6 damage shot if needed. Alternatively, I could drop the WLC's and CP and have 9 Jezzails.
Thoughts welcome of course before I officially submit a list. I want to bring 15-20 Gutter Runners or 10 Night Runners but.. can't really find a way to include them without sacrificing things I feel are necessary to remove threats.
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9 minutes ago, Coyote said:
GW thinks “ok then don’t use it”
There's a small group of more casual people at our local GW that don't use the double turn, and they once had a competitive league running that made it up to the players whether or not to use it and it was encouraged by the management not to. Since I strictly play competitive I just always run with it since all tournaments use it... unless I'm doing a teaching\casual game with someone who vehemently hates it then I don't mind.
Tactics would change quite a bit obviously and I think it could lead to more cases of shooting and far cagier play unless you're an army that can AFF\AFL. Overall I'm fine with it.. I just feel the majority is heavily in favor of it with no changes. I just try to think of it from a neutral point of view in which you can try to snatch it from someone who has potential to get it instead of it being solely on a single dice roll. -
13 hours ago, Coyote said:
The rule I hate? Double turns.
6 hours ago, Woodhell said:Actually I was kinda liking it until a Tzeench player starts the game by a double turn with flamers... He washed me of m'y threats with that ans puple Sun... Not my most optimised play either but i really felt it will be hard against that
I've always been on the fence with it.. but mostly against it. I feel one of the easiest ways to keep it in the game but also try to appease both sides is by somehow introducing +'s to the rolls, or spending CP to re-roll. I'm sure we've all heard every manner of tweaking it so who knows what they would do or if they would even do it. If turns were always back and forth it would fundamentally change how it's played and that could be good\bad. It would certainly change lists across the board. Keeping it but giving people a chance to steal it\get +'s to the roll could be one solution.
Things like Flamers\Salamanders\KO ships teleporting in front of you and removing units that can be hard to zone out combined with board-wide (or nearly boardwide with spellportal) spells from Kroak, Teclis or Kairos\LoC just isn't a good play experience for casual or competitive environments. At the same time, I try to remember when we had the old Gautfyre that would just annihilate your opponent T1 😅
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8 hours ago, TheWilddog said:
@Gwendar's point reductions look good, especially the Rat Ogres. I would love to see them come down. They are such a cool and fluffy unit but they have been sitting on my shelf for all of AOS.
I think the Doomwheel could come down 20, it has been gradually creeping toward playability.
The Hellpit Abomination should be lower, monsters are just so underused right now. I am not sure it would be run at 200.
I've been using 2 to decent effect, but I think to be more of an "Assassin" type unit then they need to be able to move across 5 wound models to do MW's and I don't think that's too much to ask.
I think 200 would be nice for the HPA as you could more readily stomach taking 2 which is what I think you really need to do with them; 1 just doesn't have enough staying power. Rolling low on 2d6 is far more common than the 4d6 of the Doomwheel which also hurts it being able to get into a unit and do much.
6 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:I mostly agree with your thoughts.
although I wish gw wouldn’t forget the eshin side of the skaven.
I feel that anything with monkey rat sculpts is the least likely to get reductions simply because no one wants to buy those horrendous models. On the flip side, maybe they go down to purge their stock to make way for new stuff next year 😉
5 hours ago, gronnelg said:WLV down to 80 points?
Issue with that is it's used by KO more than us now. It's left a bad taste in people's mouths and I still hear so many people say they wish it was just gone from the game despite the range nerf and the fact that it can literally do like 2 MW's a turn sometimes and not just obliterate the army.
The range nerf prevented it from being cast right into your deployment using Thanquol on a +3 which was too strong but.. I mean look at Teclis, Kroak, HH + Comet. I just don't see them lowering it although I would love to be wrong.
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23 minutes ago, Coyote said:
So, new Generals Handbook on the horizon; last year we were surprised at the points changes.
I’m not sure what to expect.
Any realistic thoughts? It’s likely some units are going up in cost.
I actually posted in the FB group a few hours ago asking the same thing.
Overall, I'm "cautiously pessimistic"; hard to judge when they've been so heavy handed with us recently. Many have asked for Clanrats to go to 60 at max to take better advantage of our abilities but many also feel our Clanrats need a points increase.
I know you asked for realistic thoughts, but my top picks (and by picks I mean wants) are:-
Stormvermin down to 320-360 for 40. Clawlord perhaps down to 80 as well, but 100 is still okay if SV drop.
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Thanquol reduction by 20-40 points. He deletes hordes, but getting there can be hard and he doesn't bring much else aside from the + to cast, which Tzeentch, LRL, Seraphon, etc will probably unbind anyway... it would be nice if he also had + to dispell\unbind as well.
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Bombardier back to 100, Engineer to 80 or stay at 100. Bombardier can absolutely shred something if you're lucky.. but when MMMWP is on the line then most won't take the risk unless it's a tide-turner; not something I feel is worth an extra 20 points.
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Monks maybe go to 260 but really I think they're fine where they are overall. There's still a lot of people with bad tastes in their mouths over Monks so I expect them to stay or go up out of spite. (won't be too upset if they increase so long as SV get the right decrease above).
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Gutter\Night Runners down 10-20 points. I really want to include them in all lists, but it's hard to make them fit into in numbers that mean anything. NR's are really only there for the pre-game move so 1 or 2x10 is perfect, but GR's have a lot more capability between 1x15-20. They won't replace Monks or SV in terms of damage, but it's nice utility and a backline threat like Shadow Warriors. (except... you know, they have to come out T1?)
- RAT OGRES. Really wanna see them drop by 30-50 points honestly. They have the potential to be a decent hammer (not great, just decent) but they're way over costed currently.
Some more realistic than others maybe.. I dunno. Probably missing some things.. but that's an "off the top" summary. Doomflayers could drop too obviously, even if they were 10 points I don't know that I would bring them 😅
I expect raises too, but couldn't really say what anymore considering tournament placings should tell GW exactly what they need in terms of our effectiveness.-
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Stormvermin down to 320-360 for 40. Clawlord perhaps down to 80 as well, but 100 is still okay if SV drop.
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3 minutes ago, Maserdom said:
He'll now go back to his well tested 9x Jezzail and I'm trying to hammer into his head that he absolutely needs to fit his Screaming Bell into the list in order to avoid wasting a CP/turn for battleshock tests on the Clanrats. Unfortunately (for me, since he's the only player available nearby during the Chang flu times), he's never been a great player to begin with: the process will take a long time.
My thanks, though, for every answer, since they are dutifully described to him for list building purposes! I await the time when I'll be forced to shelve my squiggies in favor of the DoT in order to fight his next fine-tuned list XD
Jezzails are a nice inclusion, although 9 of them without an Engineer to give them +1 damage will only do around 7-8 damage on average (they don't need MMMWP as their inherent RR's to hit are just fine). I think at 1250 there are better options, such as 6 Stormfiends. Hell, that and even just 1\2 Cannons or 40 Monks wouldn't be bad.
Screaming Bells aren't a necessity but they aren't terrible.. just "good" nowadays. If BS immunity is all you're after, I generally find the Bell of Doom is better as it's units within 13" and not wholly within. Of course it doesn't help you T1, but that's easily avoided by pre-measuring to ensure nothing can hit him T1 and hope nothing can T2 either if his opponent is playing for the double turn.. which I'm sure you know 😅. In todays meta of hypercharged spellcasting and unbinds, it's a lot harder to pull off without an Engineer\Bombardier\Arch Warlocks casting RR's or Thanquol's +2.
I've taught a lot of people over the past 3 years but there's still 1-2 guys around here that simply can't play at higher levels no matter how hard they try, and that's just fine, but just don't let him get burnt out from losing too much as some people have around my local scene. Feel free to return or DM if he needs anymore advice. -
3 minutes ago, Maserdom said:
Sure. I'll try to do my best to remember the last composition he tried (I don't play skaven models, and I have a tendency to call most enemy miniatures "that fat guy", "shorty over there", "rats", "tank")
1x Clawlord - WARLORD, with a relic blade that gave -3 rend or whatever it was
1x Warlock Engineer (unbind + neat magic trick)
40x Clanrats
40x Clanrats
10x Plague Monks (for the gnawholes)
10x Stormvermin (slightly tougher objective holders on the flank without my Moon's support)
1x Plagueclaw (he wanted to cripple my squig cavalry and herds before they could speed through the field and charge)
1x Claw-horde battalion
Ouch, there's absolutely no synergy here aside from the Clawlord giving Clanrats\Stormvermin +1 attack. 10 Stormvermin and 10 Monks are, to be blunt, a waste of points in my opinion. If they were meant to screen, then there are cheaper options. Skaventide want to be in units of 40 for the +1 to hit and wound benefits (to a lesser extent for the +2 bravery per 10 models but.. generally you're better off using BS mitigation).
I think @michu already established that Plagueclaws are, unfortunately hot garbage and Cannons are the better way to go.. and I've said what I needed to in my previous post. No real point in the Engineer as it has nothing to buff. But I'll let @Skreech Verminking answer the question too.. I just couldn't resist commenting 😅 -
1 hour ago, Maserdom said:
One last question. I love the Doomwheel and, hadn't I already drained my credit card with the squigs and Disciples of Tzeentch, I would have definitely played them: are they as good as it seems from the battletome, or they're just good? What they offer seems really good, and fielding a trio of them should be, imho, almost automatic.
I've been using 2 to reasonable effect lately.. although sometimes I wish I just had 2 Warp-Lightning Cannons or 9 Jezzails for hero\behemoth killing as that is what I feel they're best at doing next to removing units from lightly guarded objectives. The fact they can't run over units unless they have 3 or less wounds is a shame, but even with rolling average on shooting they can kill off support heroes most of the time. If not, just charge them and do d3 MW's which doesn't have the wounds requirement.
I don't think they're incredibly good by any means, so I guess just "good" is sufficient enough of a description. Obviously there is a risk factor with them rolling 2d6 yet it's something you should do in almost every scenario. -
12 minutes ago, michu said:
Now I have a question. How many Clanrats in 1250 pts list. 3x20? 2x40? 1x40, 1x20?
Hmm.. guess it depends what you're going for? I considered playing in a TTS tournament today at 1250 but decided against it (wasn't feeling getting up at 4am). I made a quick list which had 60 Clanrats, 6 Fiends + Engineer and a Warpgnaw... then just bought a CP for 50 but could also bring BoD.
At 1250 though, I think you maybe want to at least try for 60 via 1x40 and 1x20. Not to say 80 is a bad idea, but you really gotta think about what threats you're able to chuck in there with them, which is why even running 40 to make room for more bully units isn't a horrible idea.
Of course, no amount of Clanrats would do well against the 9 Salamander + Kroak list that is currently winning in said 1250 tournament so.. 😉 -
31 minutes ago, Maserdom said:
A friend of mine is always trying to play his Skaven army against me but, even though I now constantly resort to my "for fun" mono-squig army, built and painted just for the laughs, he gets trounced time and time again.
We usually play at 1250pts.
Leaving aside some obvious tactical mistakes, like falling for some bait etc etc, I don't understand how his army can blow up so badly: 40+40 clanrats, stormvermins, plague monks, some ultra-killy melee heroes hiding near the troops, catapults in the back firing on my squig cavalry...
What should he do with the clanrats? He keeps them near the heroes for the anti-battleshock CP ability, they are eventually buffed with the Clawlord's ability (he tends to pick the battallion that spreads the command ability on a full 13'' bubble), they keep a foot on the objectives while the rest of the daisy-chained blob goes to the front to envelop my troops: all of these tricks seem quite fine and at this point I don't know if his choice of models is just ****** or if there are extra layers of tactics that neither of us can grasp.
My Loonboss on Mangler Squigs can and will eat 20+ clanrats in one charge, bouncing away thanks to its trait before he is engaged and nuclearized. This already wastes 1 of his CP to hold he remaining rats in position.
The squig cavalry (10+10 boingrot bounders) will smash into one of the clanrats blobs, because he cleverly doesn't leave any hole towards his vulnerable backline artillery, but doing so deals an average of 10MW on impact, plus enough damage on the first squad's activation to drasticlaly reduce the clanrats'output.
If my wizards'Itchy Nuisance spell (= fight last) goes off, one of his blobs is dead.
Do you have any suggestions? He doesn't like the specific clans' traits and would rather play a mix of units (masterclan? generic skaventide? is that the name?): should he buy some more competitive models, scrapping his previous lists, or there are ways of making things work?
He also has a few ratling guns in his collection and a basket of jezzails.
Man... I'm familiar with this. I have a few people in my local meta who are stuck between wanting to play competitively but also only seeming to want to play fluff lists to accomplish that and it never works for them. I always feel bad playing against them even when I go light on my lists (and intentionally play poorly sometimes) and walk them through tactics advice and they still lose. A couple things to unpack here, all in my personal opinion:
1. 1250 just really isn't what the game is balanced around; I'm not sure what he commonly runs but if he isn't running Monks or Stormvermin in 40's then he's doing it wrong (and running 40 Stormvermin at 1250 with how overcosted they are is definitely hurting). Skaven are not resilient in the slightest; we do explode quite easily and there's no real getting around that.
2. You can make Clanrats do some damage but.. really if he wants a melee hammer\bully unit the most common choices are 40 Monks or 40 Stormvermin (but again, overcosted). For most of us, Clanrats are strictly screens and objective grabbers.. unless you're a ****** like @Skreech Verminking and run 200+ of them. When it comes to BS, honestly our battalions are not magnificent. I would rather save points and invest in a Warpseer or for the cheap option; a Bell of Doom even though it won't provide T1 protection unless he goes first. Screaming Bell isn't terrible either, just a bit random in it's utility.
So.. really all I can see from what you've posted is he's trying to make Clanrats his damage dealers and that simply isn't their job. Everything is "Skaventide" and you don't pick 1 particular clan. Basically, if he has a Skryre hero it can take the Skryre spell lore, Verminus hero's get their own things.. etc, etc. So in that regard, he shouldn't be looking at it from a "Clan specific" trait as whatever units he has get those traits anyway; you don't have to be pure Skryre to get all the Skryre stuff.
I guess you really need to ask if he wants to play competitively or just more for fun using fluff lists or what he just enjoys using? If he intends to keep running 80+ Clanrats at 1250 and expecting them to do the damage then, yeah, things probably won't get better. Things to look at in terms of firepower\competitiveness are:
40 Monks\Stormvermin
6 Stormfiends (2 Ratling Cannons, 2 Windlaunchers, 2 Doomflayers\Shock Gauntlets)
20-30 Skryre Acolytes
2-3 Warp Lightning Cannons or 9 Jezzails. Even 2-3 Doomwheels work well in this regard (these are the hero\behemoth clearing options)
3-5 Ratling Gun Teams can be okay, but weapon teams are easily taken off the board before they can do anything and are generally paired with a Soulscream Bridge
In conjunction with the above, if you run Fiends\Acolytes then you want 1-2 Engineers\Bombardiers\Arch-Warlocks for More-More-More-Warp Power (or Deranged Inventor command trait as backup to that spell not going off) as without it they will do far less damage. Running Monks? Consider a Grey Seer on foot\Screaming Bell or Thanquol for Death Frenzy (Thanquol being a horde deleting threat in his own right and is seeing a lot more play nowadays). Stormvermin? Probably want\need a Warbringer and\or a Clawlord to buff them.
So yeah.. we have options but they're mostly limited to Skryre\select other units if you want damage. Clanrats just won't cut it.. but I also am not sure how he plays; a list can only do so much.. a lot of the time it comes down to the player. -
15 minutes ago, Laststand said:
With luck the GH is a help but I fear the only real change will be a bump for the corruptor because of how it does in the Legion.
Yeah.. the changes can be a mixed bag so I can't really predict whether or not things go up. I wouldn't be too sad about the Corruptor simply because he gets no use within my Skaven lists aside from the now retired Magic List. The Warpgnaw has been doing this role within any list far better (no MW output, but up to 20 damage at -2 rend is just as good\better).
Speaking of lists, been seeing many of you looking into null deploy\teleport lists and have thought of something similar (and apologies if I directly copied anyone.. I didn't mean to). More or less I'm trying to see what I can do vs Teclis\Kroak\Tzeentch and getting the Fiends in range right away:SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142
So, even with Deranged Inventor + a Warpspark the Fiends should be pulling out ~20 damage on average vs a 4+ save. Kroak surrounded by Guard and an Astrolith Bearer will still live because it isn't broken at all but Teclis and other important things have the potential to get chunked\taken off. I would love for Vigordust to be a thing here but.. of course that goes off hero phase so I don't even bother taking it as letting the Warpgnaw have Ghyrstrike is better value. It's risky, as the AW coming up with the Grinder team has the potential to kill himself.. but the other option is to downgrade to an Engineer and lose the 2nd Warpgrinder so you can take a Grey Seer and hope that you manage to get off Skitterleap... without it being unbound 🙄
Ideally you could even get the 2 Doomwheels in range to benefit from a spark as well, but not totally necessary if they need to run around elsewhere on the baord. The WLC is a give or take thing.. I like having access to it but if the AW is up the board with the Fiends then it will likely never be getting overcharged. Could sub it out with another Doomwheel or take along 15 Gutter Runners (20 if you downgrade the AW to an Engineer\Bombardier).
I don't know that it really has legs but.. that's also because it's rather high risk\reward which isn't generally my playstyle but I want to try and adapt with new things here😉-
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2 hours ago, Laststand said:
If i remember rightly @Gwendar shared a list a while back that was mixed but had a Skryre battalion for double WLC.
True, though I've since deleted it from Azyr as I found it doesn't work out well in this meta. Getting -1 on the WLC's is awesome, don't get me wrong.. but I feel that running an AW + 2 Engineers and not having Fiends is a huge points sink. Of course if you run 6 Fiends, then you're left with 220 points (assuming only 60 Clanrats) which means I can't throw in my top picks of 40 Monks, a Warpgnaw or even 20 Acolytes. And yeah, you could replace the Fiends with 20-30 Acolytes and you would have room for other stuff; I just havent been a fan of the Acolytes lately.
Basically, if our battalions were cheaper by about 40-60 points it would be worth it so I could squeeze in one of the above. 180 points is not worth it for -1 to power rolls and an extra artifact\CP. -
6 hours ago, Laststand said:
How about this?
I've been running Thanquol + Warpgnaw setups with double-Doomwheels and 40 Monks the past week or 2 with decent success. I don't know if you need MMMWP on the Doomwheels really; I think you may be better off just using those 100 points for more Clanrats, Gutter Runners or even Night Runners to edge out some T1 board space.
Definitely like were your head is at and like seeing everyone adapt; I just worry that adapting will leave us lacking in hitting power and control, but time will tell. -
1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Well considering that the tournament will be taking place in 3weeks, I kinda doubt seeing to many Lumineth player, if at all any.
so seeing teclis being fielded in any way seems kinda unlikely.
Well yeah, I was speaking in general.
Not that you personally would be playing it; I know that isn't happening 😉
AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
HPA's no, probably not.. not unless they went to 200 then I would definitely think about running 2. I enjoy them for their "counter-charge" style because of their 2d6" movement... but that's also a big reason why they can be hard to use competitively if you need to go offensive and they roll 4" to move.
Doomwheels I still think are worth it, but I feel the same in that I need 2 at a minimum. They're still up for debate for me between 2 DW's vs 6 Jezzails, but 6 Jezzails will more consistently pop off support heroes.. again, because the random 2d6 shots and d3 damage can be the difference between killing it and doing only 2 wounds to it.
This was the LRL list:
Allegiance: Lumineth Realm Lords
- Great Nation: Syar
Leaders
Scinari Cathallar (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Goading Arrogance
- Artefact: Blade of Leaping Gold
- Lore of Hysh: Total Eclipse
Archmage Teclis and Celennar, Spirit of Hysh (660)
Battleline
10 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (120)
- Lore of Hysh: Solar Flare
10 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (120)
- Lore of Hysh: Lambent Light
10 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (120)
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
20 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (280)
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Total Eclipse
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Ethereal Blessing
Battalions
Auralan Legion (120)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Hyshian Twinstones (30)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 91
Not many are going to be a match for them when it comes to magic. I think shooting is the better route to go in our case, but if they're allowed to get all those buffs off you're going to have a hard time taking anything out no matter what. The difficult part of this list was that he actually had enough bodies to screen\zone out deepstrikes rather well. 80 Monks did a total of 8 wounds which is just incredibly disheartening to watch.. and that's due to the multiple saves and -'s to hit which applies to shooting as well, meaning those inherent 4+ to hit now goes to a 5+ (or 4+ with Vigordust) and good luck killing anything.
Even if you manage to kill the Wardens then he has 40 Sentinels and Teclis that will shoot\magic you off the board. The unit of 20 did ~11 MW's alone to the Warpgnaw and the units of 10 were averaging 3-5 MW's when they used the ability\spell to make them do MW's on 5+'s. I don't want to seem salty, but I definitely think they're a bit overtuned and most certainly an army I don't think we really have the tools to deal with without winning priority every time; at least not in this particular setup. He lost to KO 1st round, but they obviously struggle with board coverage. Battle for the Pass was easier for him to simply turtle up, prevent anything shooting at something important, wipe me off the board and then have 3 turns to claim objectives.
The guy is an incredible player and I definitely can\intend to learn a lot from him. He was the guy who took 4th at this past LVO with Skaven.. so I don't want to discount him for just outplaying me. But it really did feel quite disparaging pretty quickly.