Malakree
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Posts posted by Malakree
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37 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
In fact tagging the Mawcrusher with Locus means he can't be targeted afterwards by anything.
Nope, the FAQ says that the keeper could now attack in your opponents "end of the phase" which is after your "end of the phase"
What it would mean is that the keeper can't activate it's CA to pile in twice.
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1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said:
Rogue Idol can play a similar role. Not a hero, so not as strong, but he does benefit from the BS spells. I think the +1+1 on the Savage Orruks might be worth losing the BS bonuses, but it's something you'd have to test.
If you take a rogue idol you DEFINITELY want a warchanter, it has both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz keywords you can put the +1 damage on it and it can benefit from the 3d6 charge.
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43 minutes ago, Requizen said:
Good to note. I'm curious to try something like the following:
Megaboss on Mawkrusha - General, Ironclad, Ignax's Scales, Mean 'Un
Wurrgog Prophet - Breath of Gorkamorka
Wardokk - Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk - Kunnin Beast SpiritsArrowboyz x30
Savage Orruks x30
Savage Orruks x30
Savage Boarboyz x5
Savage Boarboyz x52000/2000
Effectively just trying to drown and outflank in bodies while the Mawkrusha does his thing. Though I'm not sure if it's worth losing all the Bonesplitterz tools just to get the big punchy boi.
If you do include a cabbage then a Warchanter becomes a very high priority include. The +1 damage is super important, the 3d6 charge is amazing on an MK, it's +2 WP a turn and has the 18" CP count.
Based purely on your list as it stands you generate 3+10+d6 WP a turn...
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2 hours ago, Cid said:
Okay so maybe that's what i'm not understanding, Cause he kept healing with the gained wounds so if i got him down to 12 wounds and then killed one of my models he would go up to 13 and so on. I still won the game cause it was objective and i managed to our smart him and distracted Maw Krusha but from playing him before to now the change was huge. I definitely understand to stay away , use shooting and mortal wounds but compared to other models that cost about the same he just seems nuts now. But i do thank you for response without attacking me for simply opening a question cause i was confused.
So a model has a damage table. As the mawkrusha takes damage it becomes slower, has less fist attacks and rolls less impact dice. The damage table is calculated on damage taken not wounds remaining, so while the mawkrusha is gaining wounds it's not healing damage thus is not going back up on it's profile.
The mk is a little weird but essentially there are two values being tracked, damage taken and wounds characteristic, when damage taken equals or exceeds the wounds characteristic of a model that model is slain.
As an example.
A mawkrusha has taken 7 damage and has a wounds characteristic of 15. It's currently on the "7-10" profile so moves 8" and has 6 fist/impact dice. SfV triggers and it gain a wound, it now has wounds characteristic of 16 so has 9 wounds remaining instead of 8. However it has still taken 7 damage so is still on the "7-10" profile. If it had HEALED a wound it wound be on 6 damage taken and now be in the "4-6" bracket with a move of 10" and 7 fist/impact dice.
The end result is that if you get it low even though it gains wounds it's now much slower. At bottom profile it moves 4"...
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1 hour ago, Requizen said:
How have you guys found this in action? Do you think it takes a while to get to a "scary" amount of WPoints, or do you find that Turn 1 is fine as long as you build and deploy for it? I know how fast Slaanesh, Ironjawz, Khorne, and even Stormcast can get across the table, not to mention the amount of shooting that can hit you Turn 1 and potentially snipe a General to slow down the point generation.
Personally I've found I can reliably hit it turn 2. Most of my builds are 2warchanters+wurrgog which is an innate 5 on it's own, add in the command point generation and even as Ironjawz I'm getting 9+d6 a turn just because.
As bonesplitterz I suspect your hero generation will be lower because wurrgogs/wardokks are only worth 1 but the sheer number of extra bodies you put on the board should make the command point generate that much more. For 600 points you can get 60 Savage Orruks which is 6 Waaagh! points on it's own from the CP.
This is all ignoring the points gained from charging and being in combat with units of 10+/heroes, again something which is easier for Bonesplitterz because your units are just innately bigger.
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1 hour ago, Kasper said:
Out of curiousity, how do you know? Did you attend?
I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it.
He's a regular on the UK tournament scene.
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9 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:
The others I get, but why does it help Hand of Gork?
7 hours ago, Andrew G said:It can put you within 12" of something in the Hero phase, so you can then MD-charge, retreat, and then pile-in.
You actually can't because HoG stops you moving in the movement phase. I'm just an idiot 😅
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1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Considering that he has a 2+ save rerolling ones ignoring the first part of a rend, I guess you could call him though.
You can't get this, the reduce rend by 1 is the Ironsunz artefact which requires you to take a specific command trait. The 2+ save is a command trait.
You get either a 2+ save or reduce rend by 1.
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10 hours ago, Lanoss said:
Hmm I think you have me convinced @Malakree
Honestly it's a massive buff to Ironjawz that you can do it and easily brings them back into being competitive compared to Big Waaagh! It's also an enormous buff to Bloodtoofs, fast un, hand of gork and even the maw krusha.
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26 minutes ago, Lanoss said:
hmmm @Malakree I understand your explanation but I see that as a sort of abuse of the rules. Sure, there are several examples of similar abuse in the game based on wording and they don’t all get faq’d but it’s a conversation I’m not willing to have with my opponent because I’d feel like I’m pulling one over on them based on wording.
if gw came back and said it was allowed then I’d do it every game! HahahQuoteAlso, do the retreat rules say A unit that retreats cannot attack or pile in etc?
No they explicitly do not. It's a well known perk of the 6" pile in that you can retreat or run and still pile in because you are within 6" The best tyrants of blood lists atm are based around the fact you can auto run your bloodthirster 6" and then use the 6" pile in to still attack. (See Yheetes)
Also on the still piling in and charging, if you charge and then the unit you charged loses models so that you are now out of 3" you can still pile in and attack.
The only quirk being used here is that the charge is occurring in the hero phase, other than that everything else has been well established for 2+ years.
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16 minutes ago, Lanoss said:
Are we suggesting - if a unit is within 12” of an enemy unit it can charge it in the hero phase, even if our unit is within 3” of another enemy unit (which we would have to attack?) and therefore (even if in combat with another unit) we can charge out of combat, into another unit, then retreat in our movement phase?
No.
You use Mighty Destroyers while within 12" of an enemy and more than 3" away from them.
Your unit then declares and completes a charge.
This sets the tag "has completed a charge this turn".
You then retreat with that unit.
In the combat phase that unit can still pile in and attack because it "has completed a charge this turn".
If you are 3.5" away from an enemy unit, you are not "in combat" but when you pile it leaves you 0.5" from an enemy
Since you're now within range of your weapons you have to attack.Hence you charge, retreat and then pile in from outside of combat range. This has so many benefits it's impossible to possibly list them all, it's a lot though.
Just now, Ravinsild said:Do people typically take the rip tooth fist or the other load out?
I take the extra +2 attacks because I never remember the rip tooth fist. The 2" range is also nice....if I remembered it 😅
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46 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:
How does the Rip-Tooth Fist work? Intuition says every 6 = a mortal wound but they wrote it strangely. It says "The attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved." so it almost seems like if you roll 12 saves and get 3 6's then you still only deal 1 mortal wound.
It's once per unmodified 6.
The timing is important because each attack is technically resolved individually, so if a unit has 3 attacks a model. They do the first attack, you roll the 6 to save, the unit takes a mortal wound. That mortal wound then resolves as part of the attack killing a model etc.
Basically it's just saying your opponent does all their attacks then after all of them are resolved then they take the mortal wounds. It's also important because even if you "die" halfway through wounds aren't allocated to models until after all attacks have been made. So if the opponent has 200 attacks to make and the first 10 kill you they still need to make the other 190 to since you can reflect mortal wounds off them.
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45 minutes ago, schwabbele said:
It is not
Assume that the term "charge" and "charge" move are not interchangeable this gives us the following situation.
- The rules state "units which retreat cannot shoot or charge later in the turn"
- "Charge" and "Charge Move" are not interchangeable.
- Thus retreating only stops you from making a "charge" not a "charge move"
- The Charge Phase rules say "Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can attempt to make a charge move."
- Hence you can retreat and still make a charge move.
Thus we have reached a situation where EITHER
Mighty Destroyers allows you to charge, retreat and still pile in
OR
Everyone can retreat and still make a "charge move" in the charge phase.
Take your pick because honestly either suits me, I'd love to have 2 phases of impact hits for free.
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45 minutes ago, schwabbele said:
It is not
Literally quoted the section where it did.
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1 hour ago, Cid said:
Even better lol
Actually not, it means that he tables based on the damage taken not on the wounds remaining. Healing is better than gaining wounds.
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11 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Mighty Destroyers says you "must attempt to charge". It is most definitely a charge move. I'm sure GW didn't think about adding rules that broke the normal pace of hero phase - movement - shooting - charge etc. when they wrote the rules for piling in, but they could have FAQ'd Mighty Destroyers to simply state something along the lines of a unit charging with Mighty Destroyers can't retreat. Or they could have FAQ'd the retreat rules to exclude fighting/piling in, instead of just shooting and charging.
Or just errata the pile in rule to "if you made a charge in the preceding charge phase"
https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf
QuoteYou can change the position of a model on the battlefield by making a move with the model. Models can be moved in the movement phase, the charge phase and the combat phase, and some abilities may allow a model to make a move in other phases too.
This establishes that moves which occur out of phase are also "Moves"
QuoteWhen you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit. Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.
This establishes that the term "Charge" is used interchangeably with "Charge Move" in the core rules itself.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf
QuoteQ: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn.
A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules that appear before the core rules for battleplans, warscrolls and allegiance abilities. This allows you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn.
This shows that the Mighty Destroyers allegiance ability overrides the core rules.
From the Orruk Warclans book.
QuoteMighty Destroyers
You can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so pick one friendly Ironjawz unit...and must attempt to charge in any other circumstances.
This shows that Mighty Destroyers is FORCING the unit to make a "Charge" which, as shown above, is interchangable with the term "Charge Move".
https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf
QuoteA unit can make a pile-in move if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or has made a charge move in the same turn. If this is the case, you can move each model in the unit up to 3". Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move.
Stating a unit can pile in if the unit has "made a charge move in the same turn" .
Thus
- The Ironjawz command ability overrides the core rules as it is an allegiance ability.
- It forces a unit to make a "charge" in the hero phase.
- In the core rules the term "charge" is used interchangeably with the term "charge move".
- Mighty Destroyers forces the unit to make a "charge move".
- A unit can pile in and attack as long as it has made a "charge move" in the same turn.
- Mighty Destroyers has forced the unit to make a "charge move" in the hero phase which is in the same turn as the following combat phase.
- The unit has made a "charge move" in that turn therefore can pile in and attack even if they are outside 3".
QED
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53 minutes ago, Andrew G said:
The teleport is crazy good, and very reliable with good positioning in Big Waaagh! I garentee you will see it 75%+ competitive Big Waaagh! lists.
Probably a good idea to include both the Wurgog and the Weirdnob anyway, having two wizards to spam Zap Em!(not just casts) seems like the sweet spot for me.
My none cabbage list runs a Wurrgog and a Weirdnob...I just want to use wrath of gork instead 😅
57 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:Is pure Ironjawz dead? Every single list I’ve looked at in the thread so far has been about the big waaagh but there’s been no solo Ironjawz.
The main reason I'm looking at Big Waaagh is because Slaughter has banned the Malign Sorcery aretefacts so I can't use my aethercrutch broach
I'd also not realised the stupid Mighty Destroyers stuff which makes Ironjawz SIGNIFICANTLY better but it's a bit late for me to try and shift gears since I don't have another practice tournament before then.
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49 minutes ago, Caffran101 said:
Can you explain this in a bit more depth? Ta.
QuotePILING IN
A unit can make a pile-in move if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or has made a charge move in the same turn. If this is the case, you can move each model in the unit up to 3". Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move.
You have made a charge in the hero phase which is part of that turn. This means you don't need to be within 3" of an enemy to pile in, thus can retreat and still pile in later in the turn.
So charge with the pigs, I made an 11" charge on sat, 14" run retreat to be able to pile in and attack without being "in combat"
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3 hours ago, Kasper said:
just don't understand that you call Hand of Gork "random", but you reliably get to charge units in your hero phase? If you really need the teleport to go off, you can tap D6 into the BW points. That makes it rather reliable in my eyes.
3 hours ago, Kasper said:I'm not trying to convince you, I just don't get the arguement for why he's bad. 😉 Sure he's a 1 cast wizard, but I don't need more than the threat of the Hand of Gork spell or Mystic Shield either way. In my games he easily pays for himself since he makes the enemy waste more pts. zoning out the table.
So one of my arguments is that the weirdnob itself is just a bad warscroll. Ignore everything else which goes on around it, ignore artefacts and the warscroll is awful.
As to the HoG being random, unbinds are a thing and a lot of races have them. So you first have to cast it, then you have to have it not unbound which when you consider the number of "No" floating around actually becomes tricky. You're also running into things which have high + to cast/unbind native. Hence my comment that it's random.
3 hours ago, Kasper said:Especially if you already run with another artefact that gives +1. I usually run Green Visions however since I need the CPs for the Waagh Banner Orruk Warboss.
I'd just rather have a Wurrgog prophet who takes morks boney bits and is just an amazing warscroll on it's own. This is the problem, the weirdnob doesn't exist in a vacuum and the options around it are all amazing.
3 hours ago, Kasper said:The 3D6 beat can't be used with the "MD hero phase charge"-trick, since it is used in the charge phase. Do you purposely move your pigs/MK within 12" but skip a round of battle by not charging in? Just sitting behind another of your units? I don't see how you reliably can pull the trick off unless you leave units stranded.
So the thing about mighty destroyers has always been. A free move in the hero phase is amazing, a free pile in and attack in the hero phase is amazing, a charge in the hero phase is just bleh. The trick makes the charge in the hero phase amazing. So it now doesn't matter whether the opposing unit is within 12" or not you're pigs should always be getting that massive mobility.
As to the beat, again it contributes to threat range, a unit of Ardboys can now be theoretically pulling a 21" charge, that's just mental. More over if put on a flying unit, like say a cabbage, the threat of jumping the enemy line is now crazy. Combine with a MD charge, 18" run over their line and suddenly all the support pieces are under threat.
The list isn't about doing trixy stuff, it's about straight up beating anyone who tries to fight it at any range.
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26 minutes ago, Kasper said:
I dont see myself ever playing without one, just to mess with deployment and movement throughout the entire game. I wouldnt call him garbage, and I wouldnt classify the teleport as a non-impact spell. It can easily be game deciding. But hey, if it works for you!
What I mean is, he's a one cast wizard who functionally has no warscroll spell or abilities that you have to pay 110 points for, if I have to choose between him and a warchanter I would take warchanter number 3.
I understand the value of a teleport but using my list with the 3d6 charge and Mighty Destroyers abuse I find that I can get round chaff so easily. Even if they do screen properly I send a unit of 15 buffed up Ardboys in and they kill the opponents chaff. Their big stuff then needs to come forward and deal with the Ardboys leaving it open for the GG's/MK to butcher.
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7 hours ago, Arkahn said:
Dont you miss the weirdnob Shaman and hand of gork ?
I really don't, it's so random and the weirdnob is just a garbage caster I'd only take one for an extremely high impact spell which HoG just isn't. It's not like Gloomspite where we're slow and have trouble going round chaff or killing the enemy in a straight up fight. Sure the threat is nice but the level of mobility makes it a non-issue.
7 hours ago, Arkahn said:And why not this list with IJ allegiance ?
6++ save, Wurrgog Prophet, +1/+1, Zap Em
Additionally due to how the list works smashing and bashing isn't an issue, I have 2 big hitters in the cabbage, who is tanked up, and the GG's. The Ardboys are there as objective holders and a huge threatening tarpit. The unit of 20 literally tanked 4 bloodthirsters yesterday and then did 12 damage back. If I had to make any changes it would be this.
QuoteAllegiance: Big Waaagh!
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Savage Boarboys (130)
- Stikkas
Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Battalions
Ironfist (160)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139Currently the brutes are functioning as 5 Ardboys with worse bravery. This would put the Boarboyz in their role but also give me another fast unit which can aggressively claim poorly held objectives.
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Did a 1 day tournament today to test my slaughter list. Not having the wardokk/extra ardboys painted I went with a variation.
Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Battalions
Ironfist (160)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139
Had some solid games. The list worked amazingly well, the only garbage unit was the 5 brutes who essentially functioned as a 50 point battleline tax, not sure if I would replace them with a Bonesplitterz unit to fill the battleline gap instead, ups my drop count to 6 which hurts but I get a useful unit out of it.
From the top.
Metalrippa's klaw, sweet holy gods it's shockingly vicious. I had weird un as the trait so it meant the guy on the top was the better attack profile (2+/2+/-3/3) and it appreciates not depreciates as the game goes on. Add in the 2+ save and 4+ spell ignore and you get a serious monster.
Wurrgog prophet, just a great warscroll at a solid points cost who also gives +1 waaagh point a turn. Fist of gork absolutely hosed down a unit of 20 mortek guard doing 14 mortals and killing 10. When you need it you need it. He had bone bitz so +1 to cast native going to +2 because he 2 monsters in range, zap em for +2 and he cast it on a 12! The warcry is also just a solid spell, never became relevant but I use it as a better arcane bolt.
Warchanters.
The 20 ardboys are such a terrifying thing walking across the board, big waaagh definately need units of 15+ to guarantee the extra waaagh points don't drop after a casualty.
GG+ironfist...I abused the everliving ****** outta the hero phase charge, run and retreat to a 3" pile in. It's so disgusting I can't even begin to express it. Literally won me game 2 vs tyrants of blood because I had a free hand break mechanism vs the always strikes first.
I really enjoyed playing it, you have a bunch of great tools which let you deal with most problems. Seriously recommend trying it if you want that kind of BW list.
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1 hour ago, nissefika said:
What do you People think of this? I am new to aos and The list is almost ready.
I am think of the vaule of ironfist bat. Is it good?
The spells and art. I not ready that is to change.
The Ironfist is solid with the unit of 6 GG's, it's pretty much a staple
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@Tezia99 personally I'd be putting an ardfist in that list. As big waaagh! Command Points really aren't that important and you have 3 big units to bring back.
If you drop 3 ggs and swap to the ardfist you can add in another 10 ardboys. It doesn't change your drop count, puts even more boyz on the board and leaves you with 20 points for a triumph.
The threat of the ardfist is unreasonable in that scenario and you will easily have the bodies to zone, claim objectives and still be aggressive.
Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
Battalions
Ardfist (120)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 161
I'd take GGV in this list because you have enough cps as it is and it becomes a "known" quantity, you don't need the chance for 6+ free cps since you just don't have an engine to fuel.
With that in mind if actually take the skullcape on the shaman. A flat +1 to cast is really big, it makes HoG a "cv6" which makes it way more reliable not to mention that time your shaman acidentily kills a wizard and gets a bonkers spell off them 😂 Don't underestimate his combat stats either with the big WAAAGH! Buffs. 3 attacks at 3+/2+/-1/d3 is a strong combat statline for a support hero and even better than some cheap low cost combat heroes.
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I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it. 
AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Ironjawz or Big Waaagh?
Right now for Ironjawz.
If you go big waaagh then the Wurrgog prophet is your wizard of choice.