Nielspeterdejong

Well I agree that he is powerful, but he costs the same as Lord Kroak who can deal D3 mortal wounds to 3 units per turn anywhere on the battlefield as well as 3 other spells. As such making him generic isn’t that far off. many armies have only one named Lord, and as such I found it fitting lore wise that that would be the Green Knight. otherwise I think we should keep the King Louen, and state that he became immortal by becoming the Lady’s consort. And I was referring to the alternative Lady’s Favour trait, which no longer uses Tokens. This is one of the Allegiance traits. And that is why I suggested replacing the tokens with the new system that gives your Peasantry better rolls vs battleshock, and allows your Knights to both retreat and charge in the same turn. Basically giving you cycle charges.

Also I quickly made some change to the Nature's Wrath spell. We found that the requirement to be near terrain was a huge liability. And as such we feel that it would be fair to punish those that knowingly come near it when you have this spell. We've added the "Dwellers below" effect, but also allow you to add a +1 on the dice rolls if the enemy unit has the DAEMON or DEATH keywords. This may seem strong, but keep in mind that this is only for each model within 3" of the target terrain, not all models within a unit like the regular Dwellers Below.

Heya, Well we think the Green Knight like you suggested (provided it remains a named character) would be a great unit, and fair for 180 points. If it remains the only named character for Bretonnia then that would make sense lorewise, and also not make it too powerful as it cannot gain items. So we think it’s pretty good! Grail Knights do sound great. I was first thinking about 180 points, but if we add that bonus against DAEMON and DEATH units as well as my The Lady's Favour idea then 200 points does sound fair. We tested the Tokens in the game, and we quite liked them! However, they also made the gameplay longer, and honestly we only ever used them for the Retreat and Charge in the same turn, as the other options were often already integrated in several units. As such we wanted to propose this version of The Lady's Favour instead (could be renamed The Lady's Blessing). You won't be able to use the Retreat and Charge on the cheaper Mounted Yeomen anymore, or reroll hit and wound rolls if you so desire, so it will be less flexible. But it should make the gameplay less complicated and more smoothly. As such we wanted to try it out, and we balanced it in that it requires you to keep your DAMSEL units save if you want to benefit from this Allegiance trait (otherwise only your Breton units within 6" of your General may benefit from these boons).

So I showed this latest version to my friends tonight, and we wanted to update our ideas and add the ideas that we had seen here We will try and play it tomorrow for one match, and probably later as well. But here are our change ideas: 1) Protection of the Spirits: All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice. 2) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Mounted Nobility units may both Retreat and Charge in the same turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they are within 6" of your General. 3) Virtue of Favour: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls. 4) Virtue of Duty: The range of the command trait increases to 9" similar to the Free Guild people. 5) Remove Exceptional steeds: This only makes it more complicated, and it's strength has been added to the new Lady's Favour. 6) Lore of the Lady: We looked at the Lore of the Lady, and while we liked the idea behind them, we felt that some of their casting values were a little bit too high. Reducing the casting value of some spells would seem fair, especially considering that Bretonnia has no effects (except for the Sons of Bretonnia spell) that increase the casting values of your spells, they only allow you to reroll them: The casting value of Fair Tailwind could become 4+, and for Revivify 8+. Nature's Wrath can stay the same if it also includes our idea (see below). 7) Fair Tailwind: We would suggest to make it so that the unit can move in any direction, not just away from the spell caster. The distance also becomes D6 instead, and if the unit is mounted then it may add +1 to this dice roll. Flying units may move double this amount. Also for clarification, add the following text: "The friendly unit may not be placed closer then 1/2" to a enemy model. Moving them in this manner will not count as its movement, as it has not moved on its own". That way flying units like Pegasi can make the most out of this, as they could potentially be moved over enemy units they are in combat with, and charge again in the same turn. 8) Entanglement: We liked the idea behind it, but I would add that the halved values would be rounded down. This would be fair for a 6+ casting value spell, as there is still a chance that the enemy might reach it's target (unless you roll a 10+, for which you should be rewarded). 9) Nature's Wrath: We like the idea behind it, but we feel that it is lacking a bit. We wanted to also add the "Dwellers below" effect in addition to it's current effect, as in that any enemy model within 3" of the terrain (unless it's a monster unit) must roll a dice. On a 6 or more they suffer 1 mortal wound. If these models have the DEATH or DAEMON keywords then you may add +1 on these dice rolls. Seeing as this is a 7+ spell which only works on enemy units near terrain (meaning that they can easily avoid it) this would be a more then fair compensation for this. 10) Remove the spell Strengthen Spririts, and replace it with Sons of Bretonnia: This spell will be based on the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia which are the male counterparts of the Damsels. The Damsels can attempt to summon them, but their pent up rage can be hard to control. Nearby Peasant units may attempt to aid the Damsel during the spell, by praying to the Lady of the Lady, and strengthening the Damsels magic with their faith. Sons of Bretonnia has a casting value of 10+ to cast. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each PEASANTRY unit within 10" of the Damsel. On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. Mounted Squires and Battlepilgrims allow you to roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. If successfully cast, inflict D6 mortal wounds on a unit within 18". Then roll a dice - on a 4 or more the Sons of Bretonnia will relentlessly continue their assault. Resolve another D6 wounds on a eligible unit. The Sons of Bretonnia keep on their assaults until you fail to roll a 4 or more. 11) Artifacts of Legends: We felt that the Paladin with Standard was a bit underpowered for it's cost, and as such we wanted to add the following changes to the Artifacts of Legends item list: "NOBLITY HERO units with the TOTEM keyword provide your army with a free Magical Standard item each, but it may and must only be equipped to them." This is in addition to the standard item you gain, as well as the items you gain for each battalion that you field. This would also be fair, as the 100 point cost Paladin with Standard is really weak without it, and by giving him this standard he can no longer be improved with other items. Think of it as giving them one of 3 abilities, at the expense of not being able to wield other items. 12) Shield of the Lady: The text is changed in the following way: "Add 1 to this models save rolls. In addition, this model may add 1 to it's Protection of the Spirits roll in the shooting phase." 13) Sirienne's Locket: we wanted to add the following text after it: "If the attack has a damage characteristic of 1 and "-" rend, then for each wound suffered you may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the wound is negated." 14) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: While we like the originality, we feel that it is not worth an item. As such we instead wanted to remove this effect, and give it a previous item effects which you removed: "The Damsel may cast one additional spell per turn". 15) Twilight Banner: We wanted to add the following text after its current text: "If the friendly BRETON unit can already fly, then add +1 to its run and charge rolls instead". 16) Mounted Squires: Give Mounted Squires the Peasantry Keywords, as they are basically Peasants trying to attain Knighthood (This way they will not benefit from the Retreat and Charge from the Lady's Blessing, but they can aid the Lady with casting the Sons of Bretonnia spell). In addition the Mounted Squires their save will be 4+ instead of the current 5+ (They do cost 80 points per 5 models after all, and this would seem fair when compared to other units). 17) Foot Knights: We think that Foot Knights should gain the Nobility Keyword as well. 18) Peasant bowmen: My friend is a competetive Free People's player, and often deploys Crossbow men who cost 100 points, and who can fire twice in their turn with a 4+ to hit and wound as long as no enemy is within 3" and they didn't move. It also has a ability that allows all its models to fire upon a enemy unit that has charged it as an interrupt, as well as a ability that allows some of their attacks to have -1 rend. Seeing as the Peasant Bowmen are supposed to be the best battleline archers around, he felt that their price could be reduced to 100 point (and a 40 model horde could cost 360 points) while also buffing them a little bit. These were his suggestions: Stakes: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Stakes in the Hero phase. Any enemy unit that finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit must roll a dice. On a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 or 3 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 4 or higher the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its models will be pushed back 31/2" and may not pile in. The protection of the stakes is lost if the Peasant bowmen unit moves or is attacked in the combat phase." Burning Braziers: Add the following text in front of the Burning Braziers text: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Burning Braziers in the Hero phase." 19) Woodsmen: We like the concept of these guys, but when compared to for instance the Chameleon Skinks they are a bit lacking. We were thinking about giving their Woodman's bows a -1 rend. In addition, add the following text to Ambush: "If the model is placed within terrain then it suffers none of these restrictions, and may be placed in the first turn on any terrain". And change the text of Surefooted Stalkers as following: "If a model from this unit would be slain while on terrain, roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more, the model deftly avoids harm and is not slain." (The -1 rend feels fair as the Chameleon Skinks have 10 attacks for 120 points, with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound. And the change to Ambush would give you the same flexibility of the Chameleon Skinks, however only provided you put them on terrain. With all these restrictions, and the greater cost, changing the Surefooted Stalkers trait to avoid being slain on a 4+ for all effects did seem more then fair to us. Meaning that your Woodsmen will be more restricted then the Chameleon Skinks, but if you put them in terrain they will be a bit more durable). 20) Brothers of the Round: My friends and I felt that some of the Battalions could receive some love. The Brothers of the Round battalion reminded him of a Free People's one, and he recommended adding the following text after the second Ability text: "If the unit contains any Standard Bearers, then none of its units flee on a roll of 1 or 2. 21) Seeing as you need FIRESLAYER units for the Order of the Burning Lance, I think it's important to add the Fireslayers as potential allies. 22) When comparing the Field Trebuchet with the Canon, I feel that 180 points would be more then fair as they are very similar. With each having advantages over the other. 23) For the SAGE'S ORDER, change the allies to COLLEGIATE ARCANE, and exchange the Swordmasters for Foot Knights. In addition, we were thinking about changing the text as following: *All units in the Sage's Order may re-roll hit rolls of 1 if they are within 10" of a COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD. If they already have this effect, then they may reroll all failed hit rolls. *Friendly COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD units add +1 to their casting rolls if they are within 10" of a unit from the Sage's Order. In addition, the COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD from the Sage's Order gains the BRETON and NOBILITY keywords and can temper with the fates. Once per phase you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit by one. In addition the battalions cost could be decreased to 120 points, as the second trait mostly only affects the Sage’s Order Wizard. 24) Royal Airforce: The first ability also gives your Pegasus Knights their lances a -1 Rend. In addition, remove the current second ability and give the battalion the Stealthy Advance and Strike from the Skies abilities from the SHADOWSTRIKE STARHOST for all units under the battalion. The former lets its units advance 2D6 at the end of the Set-up Phase. The latter allows them to be placed outside the board in the set up, and then placed anywhere on the map but 3+ away from enemy models in any of your movement phases, and you may then add +1 on wound rolls for these units in their next combat phase. With this the point cost could remain 160 points, as that would be fair for their new abilities. 25) Perhaps the Ragged Brotherhood could be reduced to 120 points, and the Peasant Militia to 80 points? Looking at what you gain for their cost this did seem like a fair cost reduction to us. 26) The Examplar Order: We liked how it had a restriction, but at the very least we feel that for 120 points it should have another trait. As such we were thinking about adding the following second text: "All units from the Examplar Order may add +1 on their hit rolls if they are within 10" of a NOBILITY HERO and they made a Charge move this turn. 27) The Black Order: We feel that for 100 points he should have another ability trait, and as such we were thinking about adding the following second trait: "Enemy units within 8"must always make a battleshock test, and must ignore effects that would otherwise prevent them from doing so. In addition, if your opponent makes a battleshock test for these units roll a dice. If the result is higher than the result of your opponent's dice, D3 additional models flee from the unit (as well as any that flee because of the test). 28) I agree that King Leon Leoncoeur should instead be made into a Generic King like Lord Bretonnia suggested. Also I think his version of the Bretonnian King would be more then fair for its point cost, creating a really powerful lord (which we need, as Bretonnia has no other monster units) if you want to go for a more elite approach. Same with the Fey Enchantress, as I feel that she can also be a generic lord known as Enchantress again. The only Lord I think that should be a named character is the Green Knight. We could make the story that King Leon Leoncoeur and the Fey Enchantress have dissapeared. Presumably dead, but his descendants have survived. Rumors being that the Lady of the Lake sired the first descendant of King Leon Leoncoeur's bloodline, as she was madly in love with him. This would also be fair, as his version of the Green Knight is strong (yet for 180 points fair), so he has no need for an additional item or Commant traits. The King could be named: King on Hippogryph. Like in the current Bretonnian Battletome. We talked it over, and we agreed that Lord Bretonnia his new Warscrolls and point cost for those units are spot on, so we wanted to include that as well. However, alternatively I would give a 24” range to the King’s Crown of Bretonnia and King of the Realm. This in exchange for 13 wounds, and making the King a named character for 380 points. This hero could be named King Leoncouer, and he could be a descendant from a King Leon Leoncour. 29) We loved the idea of adding the Demigryph Knights to the Bretonnian roster, but how about you also add a Breton version of the General of Griffon? You could use the concept of the Freeguild General on Griffon https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-general-griffon-en.pdf while replacing some keywords for the unit and its abilities, and also giving the Charging Lance a +1 on wound rolls if the model charged this turn. That way he could be a cheaper alternative (260 points like the standard General on Griffon) to the Bretonnian King. Also this would give Bretonnia a much needed Monster unit. This NOBILITY HERO could be called a ARCHDUKE ON GRIFFON, giving you more options to choose from. 30) Pegasus Knights: Their cost could be reduced to 160 points, while their current Warscroll remains the same 31) The Order of the Burning Lance: Change the first text as following: "All units from the Order of the Burning Lance add one to their charge rolls. In addition, all of their non-mount attacks deal 1 additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll on a wound roll of 6 or more, provided they charged in the same turn." 32) The Order of Chasseurs: We were thinking about making the requirement 1-3 Knight Errant units. In addition we wanted to add the following text at the end of the second text: "In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain the Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10" of a Questing knights unit." 33) Defenders of the Realm: We felt that the Defenders of the Realm was a bit lacking, therefor we wanted to add the following lines at the end of the second text: "In addition, the charging units may both retreat and charge in the following turn. During this retreat HERO units may move over enemy models as if they could fly. ---- We talked it over, and we think that this may be just what Bretonnia needs If the rest of the Battletome stays the same, aside from these changes, then it would be above average to good, but at the same time also able to compete with various high tier armies due to it's access to different and exiting tools! We will try out this altered battletome as soon as we can, and let you guys know how that went

Actually I have been thinking about that as well, and while the Token system does sound nice, perhaps I could propose an alternative? Just see what you think about it 1) Protection of the Spirits: If we take the Tomb King fanmade similar trait, we find that they give that effect within 10" which is only fair. If we lower the range to 6", then we could put some power into another aspect of that trait. How about this: All BRETON units may ignore wounds and mortal wounds on a dice roll of 6 or higher in the shooting phase. If the Breton unit is within 6" of a BRETON HERO it may gain this effect for all phases and not merely the shooting phase. A BRETON unit within 6" of a DAMSEL may re-roll failed Protection of the Spirits dice. 2) The Lady Wills it! stays the same. 3) The Lady's Favour: The Lady's favour protects both its Peasantry and Nobility, granting different effects to both as long as your army is graced with a DAMSEL hero. Peasantry units may roll two dice during a battleshock, and pick the lowest value. Nobility units may both Retreat and Charge in the same turn. If you no Longer have a DAMSEL within your army, then your units may only benefit from these boons if they are within 6" of your General. 4) Command Traits: The Virtue of Favor now instead gives all BRETON units within 6" of your General a +1 on their Protection of the Spirits rolls (maybe now called Virtue of Protection). And the Virtue of Duty's range is increased to 9" If the Peasant Bowmen and the Woodsmen could gain the proposed boons, it would allow for an army that is very reliant on being well rounded. Meaning that there will be less cheese strategies, and you only get the most out of these boons if you can make the sons and daughters of Bretonnia work together. Also it would be a nice theme if that proposed Spell for Damsels that summons the Sons of Bretonnia could have a higher chance of succeeding thanks to the Peasants, while the Peasants (and the Nobility) could benefit in a similar manner from the Damsels. It would also fit the noblity Knights and Damsels theme (the airforce would need to be reworked a little bit though).

I really like those changes The Bretonnian king is really expensive, but if the Peasant Bowmen (100 points, gains the improved Stake ability) and Pegasus Knights (160 points, -1 Rend on their lance attacks) could be improved as we described, it should still leave enough points for a decent enough army. The Green Knight Summoned from the Mists ability seems like a great idea! And I like all the other changes they have as well. As for the Grail Knights, I agree with making one of the models a commander, and giving them a +1 damage characteristic against DEATH or DAEMON units. I think that for my previous ideas CHAOS should be replaced with DAEMON as well.

Good evening, We haven't been able to find more time to have more matches, but we will see if we might get some time next week. In the mean time, did you manage to find time yourself? Also, would this battletome be as detailed as the Fanmade Tomb Kings one? Oh, and this is the spell we meant: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-weirdnob-shaman-en.pdf We would love to see a similar trait, but then where the peasants could try and pray to bolster the Damsel their magic instead. Something along the lines of them bolstering her with their faith? The Spell could also have a spellcasting of 10, and have a effect similar to the Foot of Gork (reroll after dealing the damage). However, each Peasant unit within 10" of the damsel may pray to try and bolster her spellcasting. When casting the spell, roll a dice for each Peasant unit within 10". On a roll of 3 or more the Damsel adds a +1 on her spellcasting for this spell. The Battlepilgrims may roll two dice instead of one. A Blessed Lake within 10" automatically grants her a +1 on this spell cast. However, if she fails to cast the spell the power will backfire onto her and she will suffer D3 mortal wounds. This spell could be related to the Lady of the Lake, as she tries to summon the Sons of Bretonnia: http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_Bretonnia who are the male counter part of the Damsels, who would be taken away by the Enchantress at a young age. When successfull casting the spell, they will be summoned and relentlessly wash over the enemy over and over again. If the Damsel fails however, their wrath will turn against the damsel, untold years of rage build up. Thoughts?

Well I was thinking about wildform, however I didn't have enough points for both a Celestial Hurricanum and a Wizard, since the CH costs 380 now. I know where you are coming from, but keep in mind that all the Allegiances have some similar things. Like the Seraphon and their double Bastiladon with Thunderquake. Those are really strong, and I don't think it's unfair to give Bretonnians a similar gimmick as well. One that would actually feel fairer compared to many other lists as well. Also, it will be hardly a gimmick, as you'd still have to invest into a Wizard. As it stands now the Bretonnians lack a little bit of combos, that is why I suggested the change to the Tailwind to have more movement if the unit has flying, as well as give the Icon of Quenelles one additional spell cast per turn as well. Also very important is to give the Standard bearer Paladin that free item. This because without that item, the Paladin is really bad. The item is more meant to give him a sort of "new ability", of which you can choose 3 options. However, in exchange you can then not give the Paladin another item. So in that sense you could see it as a strong ability, but in exchange you could not get the boons of another item. So again, we hope you would consider adding that free item after all. I can understand not giving the general the free item, but we feel that it is pretty important for the mediocre Standard bearer to have that. Also, what do you think about making the +2 save spell a direct damage spell similar to the Foot of Gork? But this time the damsel gets a bonus for each Nobility unit nearby instead of each Orc unit nearby? They do have access to mortal wounds, but they don't always get that charge off, so it would help them out a ton!

Honestly I don't think so. That is, unless they get the changes I proposed, which includes the 3+ wound on their Sacred Lance and Sword, and the "Questing Vow" effect but then against CHAOS and DEATH units instead of monsters. In which case they would be able to beat them. In fact, my friend played one unit against the Vampire Counts. It costed a wooping 400 points for a 10 model unit, but they performed really well against some of the Undead bigger monsters and overall. Which makes sense as they are supposed to be these anti evil champion knights of the Lady. EDIT: Again for confirmation: I were using the changes I had listed earlier to the list, meaning that we used a bit of a stronger version of the Battletome.

Well sure, for my first match for instance I had a battle with my version of the Sage's Order. I first want to add that I think the Collegiate Arcane are much better suited for the theme of mighty Wizard nobles, who were not taken by the Lady of the Lake but instead became wizards. For this army I had a Celestial Hurricanum (which also became a Breton Nobility hero), I had 10 Foot Knights, a unit of 5 Knights of the Realm, a unit of 10 knights of the realm, a Lord on Demigryph, a unit of 6 Demigryph, a unit of 40 archers. a damsel, and a unit of 10 Mounted Yeomen. (I might miss some units, I'm not sure). Along with The Sage Order battalion. My Demigryph performed well, however their Warboss on Mawcrusha just crashed through my lines, and into my Celestial Hurricanum. Like I said, even with the improved Protection of the Spirits boon the Knights of Bretonnia perform poorly against high tier units unless they were able to charge. The Longbow Archers did well, but only because of the improved Stakes trait, as otherwise one of their units would have charged and destroyed them all. I don't mind losing, as he played it better with planning, and even with this disadvantage I still was able to deal somewhat decent damage, which in the end made me feel like I contributed something to the fight. And left me with a sense of satisfaction as well. Again, I can't stress enough that they really need these boons. Their units on their own are nothing special, and easily killed despite good saves due to all the other factions having tons of mortal wounds and other effects. I know you want to make them above average, but please make them good like this instead. Even all with these boons they are not as good as many other factions, and I can promise you they will not be fun to play with if they are underpowered, and people will not pick them even if they have the models. Having a chance to win is always very important!

Alright, I just got back from the last matches. It again ended up being 1 one won and one lost for Bretonnia. I played against the Seraphon, and got destroyed! Their only source of mortal wounds are the charges, and only half were able to put them off due to the Skinks being teleported in and charged into my army. The Bretonnian knights sound good on paper, but against large wound hordes they get destroyed! Perhaps it is an idea to look for an feature that lets them trample over low tier horde units with their hooves like the filthy peasants they are? The Knights are already pretty expensive for what they do, so giving their hooves a effect against units with higher model count would have helped me out. I did like using the Woodsmen with my suggested buffs though. But I will have to stress it out again: They really need those boons, as the Woodsmen were restricted to just a few terrain areas, and they really need that 4+ save chance. My Woodsmen still died, but they were able to deal enough damage to some key units, and keep them busy with their increased survivability. Once those units were down my Pegasus were able to swoop in. The other match was against Sylvaneth, and the reason they won was due to the greater resistance to missile fire from the improved Protection of the spirits. Again, if that was just a bonus against ranged, aka a weaker version of the Undead trait, then he would have lost. We loved the direction you guys have taken. But we do feel that with such mediocre units they really do need those boon ideas. I understand balance and all that, but again theory and practice are two different things. Still, we liked playing with them, so it's definitely a stop in the right direction

We will have another few matches tonight actually I will let you know more then. also perhaps you could try to field test it as well? Like you said, the more the better.

Also the text for Defenders of the Realm could be made simpler: Add the following text behind the second battalion boon: “Units from The Defenders of the Realm who have killed 10 or more enemy models after this charge (including models lost due to battleshock) or have completely slain an enemy unit, may then both run and charge in your next turn. During this time they may move over enemy models as if they could fly.

Quick message in between, as I will write a longer response this evening. I understand that you don’t want to make them too powerful, but what I can spoil is that we found the Bretonnian units to be Mediocre at best. Most races have some really good mechanics and features, which are built into the unit. Bretonnia units however often just have their charges, which are just for the opening attack. When I got charged myself I was left at a huge disadvantage. Like others have mentioned, most other similar units to the Bretonnians are simply better overall, so these strong buffs aren’t mean to make them top tier, they are meant to make a very weak faction above average. Especially the Protection of Spirits really needs the change we proposed, as without it the Bretonnian units easily fall like flies. Remember, there is a huge difference with how something works on paper and how it works practice. Without the changes to the Grail Knight, the free items as we proposed, and the Protection of the Spirits my friend would have never been able to win against his opponent who was playing the Undead.

Honestly I disagree, as in our matches we found the Brettonians to just be above average due to their Warscrolls lacking some of the strong utility that other Warscrolls have. I know their abilities seem like a bit much, but please keep in mind that their units aren’t that great on their own. Also I added 3 more suggestions which I forgot to add

Glad you like those ideas, because we sure did! It is too late now, but I will write about our matches this evening tomorrow. It was a heck of a lot of fun! Even with our own Bretonnian suggestions they were still above average, but we think they actually have the tools to keep up with the more meta armies. We had two matches, in one a player won, and in another I lost against the Ironjawz. It honestly felt a lot of fun, even as I got destroyed. We noticed that you have to make sure to get your charges off, otherwise you have a serious problem. I will tell more tomorrow, but I honestly feel they REALLY need our suggestions, otherwise we think they will be way too underpowered. As they were with our proposed changes, they felt strong yet also fair. They are definately not top tier, but good enough to have a fighting chance! PS: I forgot to add a few more texts to the changes suggestion list. These are 32-34, we used these in our match tonight as well

I think it's important to find balance. Though there is no shame in making them good enough to compete with the newer and stronger factions I will be trying this build with my friends this evening for Bretonnia. We managed to make two armies with our models (using the Greatswords for the Free Guilds instead of Foot Knights) and we will play them against Ironjawz and Undead. We look forward to seeing how it will go Here are the changes to your current Battletome again, which we will be using tonight 1) Protection of the Spirits (you accidently put *from* there): This trait feels a bit too situational and also only targets the Nobility units. He recommended changing it like this: "Roll a dice each time a BRETON unit suffers a wound or mortal wound in the shooting phase. On a 6 or higher that wound or mortal wound is ignored. NOBILITY units may add +1 to this dice roll in the shooting phase. In addition, BRETON units within 6" of a NOBILITY HERO may gain this effect in all phases of the game, not merely the shooting phase." 2) Virtue of Heroism: There is already an order item that increases the damage characteristic by 1 against all units. We feel that it would be fair if this virtue would also increase the general's wound rolls by +1 in addition to increasing the damage characteristic by +1 for that weapon against MONSTER or HERO units. 3) Virtue of Duty: This is the same kind of command trait that the Free People can choose as well, however their range is 9" instead of 6". We think that it's only fair that the range of this command trait is increases to 9" as well. 4) Lore of the Lady: We looked at the Lore of the Lady, and while we liked the idea behind them, we felt that some of their casting values were a little bit too high. Reducing the casting value of some spells would seem fair, especially considering that Bretonnia has no effects that increase the casting values of your spells, they only allow you to reroll them: The casting value of Fair Tailwind could become 4+, for Entanglement 5+, and for Revivify 8+. Nature's Wrath can stay the same if it also includes our idea (see below). 5) Fair Tailwind: We would suggest to make it so that the unit can move in any direction, not just away from the spell caster. This would give it a lot more utility, as it would give you a 66% chance (by rolling a 2, which gives you a 3" movement) to move outside of the 3" range to the enemy unit. We talked it over, and we believe that this would mean that you could charge again (please correct us if we are wrong, but we believe you may charge if you are not within 3" of a enemy unit). That way you could use it to cycle charge with your units. In addition, we wanted to add that flying units could move D6+2" instead. That way it could be used to give your flying Pegasus knights as well as the Twilight banner item more utility. Also for clarification, add the following text: "The friendly unit may not be placed closer then 1/2" to a enemy model. Moving them in this manner will not count as its movement, as it has not moved on its own". That way flying units like Pegasi can make the most out of this, as they could potentially be moved over enemy units they are in combat with, and charge again in the same turn. 6) Entanglement: We liked the idea behind it, but I would add that the halved values would be rounded down. This would be fair for a 5+ casting value spell, as there is still a chance that the enemy might reach it's target (unless you roll a 10+, for which you should be rewarded). 7) Nature's Wrath: We like the idea behind it, but we feel that it is lacking a bit. We wanted to also add the "Dwellers below" effect in addition to it's current effect, as in that any enemy model within 3" of the terrain (unless it's a monster unit) must roll a dice. On a 6 or more they suffer 1 mortal wound. 8) Artifacts of Legends: We felt that the Paladin with Standard was a bit underpowered for it's cost, and as such we wanted to add the following changes to the Artifacts of Legends item list: "NOBLITY HERO units with the TOTEM keyword provide your army with a free Magical Standard item each, but it may and must only be equipped to them." And also the following: "If the general of your army is not a named NOBILITY HERO, then he or she may be equipped with a free item. As the HERO is a aspiring champion of the Lady, who has risen up to any challenge put before him or her despite the odds." This is in addition to the standard item you gain, as well as the items you gain for each battalion that you field. 9) Shield of the Lady: The text is changed in the following way: "Add 1 to this models save rolls. In addition, this model may add 1 to it's Protection of the Spirits roll in the shooting phase." 10) Sirienne's Locket: we wanted to add the following text after it: "If the attack has a damage characteristic of 1 and "-" rend, then for each wound suffered you may roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more the wound is negated." 11) The Silver mirror: We wanted to add a bit more flavor to this item, and change it in the following way by adding the following text: "Optionally, the bearer may instead choose to use this item to automatically cast one of its spells. The bearer may choose to use either effects after it has attempted to unbind or cast the spell. 12) Sacrement of the Lady: We think that this spell could be changed from "Once per battle" to "Once per Hero phase" allowing you to have a better chance at casting or dispelling one spell in your or your enemies Hero phases. This would be a weaker version of the Silver Mirror, but one which you can use for a total of one spell in each Hero Phase. 13) Prayer Icon of Quenelles: While we like the effects, we feel that it is not worth an item. As such we wanted to add one of the previous item effects which you removed: "In addition, the bearer may cast one more spell in your Hero phase." 14) Twilight Banner: We were thinking about adding the following text after its current text: "If the friendly BRETON unit can already fly, then add +1 to its run and charge rolls instead". 15) We noticed that the Mounted Squires didn't have the Peasantry keyword and that Foot Knights didn't have the Nobility keyword. I believe that we are right in assuming that they are supposed to have these keywords? That does seem the most logical when looking at the rest of the Battletome. Also, perhaps the Mounted Squires their save could be 4+ instead of the current 5+? They do cost 80 points per 5 models after all, and this would seem fair when compared to other units. And I believe 10 Foot knights cost 160 points right? The text was a bit confusing, as it mentioned 5 models instead of 10. 16) Peasant bowmen: My friend is a competetive Free People's player, and often deploys Crossbow men who cost 100 points, and who can fire twice in their turn with a 4+ to hit and wound as long as no enemy is within 3" and they didn't move. It also has a ability that allows all its models to fire upon a enemy unit that has charged it as an interrupt, as well as a ability that allows some of their attacks to have -1 rend. Seeing as the Peasant Bowmen are supposed to be the best battleline archers around, he felt that their price could be reduced to 100 point (and a 40 model horde could cost 360 points) while also buffing them a little bit. These were his suggestions: Stakes: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Stakes in the Hero phase. Any enemy unit that finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit must roll a dice. On a 1 nothing happens, on a 2 or 3 the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds, and on a 4 or higher the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds and its models will be pushed back 31/2" and may not pile in. The protection of the stakes is lost if the Peasant bowmen unit moves or is attacked in the combat phase." Burning Braziers: Add the following text in front of the Burning Braziers text: "Once per battle the Peasant bowmen unit can set up Burning Braziers in the Hero phase." 17) Woodsmen: We like the concept of these guys, but when compared to for instance the Chameleon Skinks they are a bit lacking. We were thinking about giving their Woodman's bows a -1 rend. In addition, add the following text to Ambush: "If the model is placed within terrain then it suffers none of these restrictions, and may be placed in the first turn on any terrain". And change the text of Surefooted Stalkers as following: "If a model from this unit would be slain while on terrain, roll a dice. On a roll of 4 or more, the model deftly avoids harm and is not slain." The -1 rend feels fair as the Chameleon Skinks have 10 attacks for 120 points, with 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound. And the change to Ambush would give you the same flexibility of the Chameleon Skinks, however only provided you put them on terrain. With all these restrictions, and the greater cost, changing the Surefooted Stalkers trait to avoid being slain on a 4+ for all effects did seem more then fair to us. Meaning that your Woodsmen will be more restricted then the Chameleon Skinks, but if you put them in terrain they will be a bit more durable. 18) Blessed lake: I take it you mean a DAMSEL HERO unit? If so then we really like it, and we think that this will add a lot more flavor to future battles 19) Brothers of the Round: My friends and I felt that some of the Battalions could receive some love. The Brothers of the Round battalion reminded him of a Free People's one, and he recommended adding the following text after the second Ability text: "If the unit contains any Standard Bearers, then none of its units flee on a roll of 1 or 2. 20) Seeing as you need FIRESLAYER units for the Order of the Burning Lance, I think it's important to add the Fireslayers as potential allies. 21) When comparing the Field Trebuchet with the Canon, I feel that 180 points would be more then fair as they are very similar. With each having advantages over the other. 22) For the SAGE'S ORDER, don't you mean COLLEGIATE ARCANE, as this is one of their allies? However, if not then perhaps then the Swordmasters could be changed to a different unit? And the battalion could be reworked a bit? I think that units like the Celestial Hurricanum and the Battlemage on Griphon would be really fitting allies to the Bretonnians. In addition to changing the unit of Swordmasters requirement (this could be Foot Knights instead), we were thinking about changing the text as following: "All units in the Sage's Order may re-roll hit rolls of 1 if they are within 10" of a COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD. If they already have this effect, then they may reroll all failed hit rolls. Friendly COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD units add +1 to their casting rolls if they are within 10" of a unit from the Sage's Order. In addition, the COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARD from the Sage's Order gains the BRETON and NOBILITY keywords and can temper with the fates. Once per phase you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll for this unit by one." in addition the battalions cost could be decreased to 120 points, as the second trait mostly only affects the Sage’s Order Wizard. 23) We love the Royal Airforce, but with the second ability requiring one of your Favour Tokens it feels fair to us to reduce it's cost to 140 points instead. And perhaps the Ragged Brotherhood could be reduced to 120 points, the Defenders of the Realm to 100 points, and the Peasant Militia to 80 points? 24) The Examplar Order: We liked how it had a restriction, but at the very least we feel that for 120 points it should have another trait. As such we were thinking about adding the following second text: "All units from the Examplar Order may add +1 on their hit rolls if they are within 10" of a NOBILITY HERO and they made a Charge move this turn. 25) The Black Order: We feel that for 100 points he should have another ability trait, and as such we were thinking about adding the following second trait: "Enemy units within 8"must always make a battleshock test, and must ignore effects that would otherwise prevent them from doing so. In addition, if your opponent makes a battleshock test for these units roll a dice. If the result is higher than the result of your opponent's dice, D3 additional models flee from the unit (as well as any that flee because of the test). 26) King Louen Leoncoeur: We feel that even with all his abilities he is way too expensive with his current 380 points cost. Reducing his point cost to 320 would seem fair, especially when compairing him to other Legendary Lords (as a LL he cannot be equipped with a item, nor gains any command traits after all). This way he would still be pretty expensive, but at least his current cost would be fair considering his abilities. 27) We loved the idea of adding the Demigryph Knights to the Bretonnian roster, but how about you also add a Breton version of the General of Griffon? You could use the concept of the Freeguild General on Griffon https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-freeguild-general-griffon-en.pdf while replacing some keywords for the unit and its abilities, and also giving the Charging Lance a +1 on wound rolls if the model charged this turn. That way he could be a cheaper alternative (260 points like the standard General on Griffon) to King Louen Leoncoeur, who would lack many of the King's Utilities, but in exchange would be better in combat. Also this would give Bretonnia a much needed Monster unit. This NOBILITY HERO could be called a ARCHDUKE ON GRIFFON, giving you more options to choose from. 28) Green Knight: We agree with Cayseymax that the Green Knight should have 6 wounds, which is only fair. Price stays the same. 29) Grail Knights: We also think that the Grail Knights should have a commander, who gains a extra attack like the other units. As well as a 3+ to wound on their Sword and Sacred Lances. And how about we add a ability that gives a similar effect like the Question Vow from the Questing Knights, but then again CHAOS and DEATH? If this could be in addition to their Sword and Sacred Lances then that would warrant their 200 point cost. 30) Pegasus Knights: Their Lances and Blades could really use a -1 Rend on their attacks. With that their price could remain the same. 31) The Lady's Favour: Whenever you slay a MONSTER or HERO unit, you gain a bonus Favour Token. 32) The Order of the Burning Lance: Change the first text as following: “All units from the Order of the burning lance add one to their charge rolls. In addition, all of their non-mount attacks deal 1 additional Mortal Wound on a wound roll of 6 or more, provided they charged in the same turn.” The second text stays the same. 33) The Order de Chasseurs: We were thinking about making the requirement 1-3 Knight Errant units. In addition we wanted to add the following text at the end of the second text: “In addition the Knight Errant units from this battalion gain The Questing Vow ability from the Questing Knights. Provided they are within 10” of a Questing knights unit.” 34) Defenders of the Realm: we felt the Defenders of the Realm was a bit lacking, even with the suggested cost reduction to 100. Therefor we wanted to add the following lines at the end of the second text: “In addition, provided these units performed all of their attacks against non- MONSTERS/HEROES and they slew more then 10 models (including those lost in the battleshock test), they may both run and charge in the following turn. They may then also move over these non-MONSTER/HERO units as if they could fly, provided they end their retreat more then a 1/2” away from enemy models.

But didn’t the alpha version cost 160 for 5? Or did you pick 10 for 160 points, 2 wounds each?

Well I meant the Greatswords units from the Empire. They cost 150 points for 10 units with 1 wound each I believe. Do you feel that giving the 10 foot knights (for 160 points) 1 wound each would not be enough?

So wait, you used 10 models (like the Greatswords), and even with 2 wounds each only got even? Even with the Death throw effect? I'm asking because we might play tomorrow, so I want to see what would work best, as we wanted to use a version which we felt was the most balanced

How many models did they have for 160 points? 10 models or 5 models?

I think you are spot on with all of these ideas! I will I’ll propose using these changes in our test run as well Except for the Foot Knights: I propose giving them a minimum of 10 models like the Great swords for 160 points instead. That way they could be the Bretonnians version of that elite unit. I think your idea for making those LL generic is interesting. With the Bretonnian version of the General on Griffin becoming a Archduke on Griffon, and the LL’s becoming a King on Griffon and Enchantress. However, every army has at least one Legendary Lord. So I think those could stay the same, while we add the Bretonnian version of the 260 points costing General on Griffon as well to fill up that hole. What do you think about my proposed cost for King Louen? I agree with you about both the grail knights, the Green Knight and the Pegasus knights though. And we will try that out ourselves in our test run as well!

Honestly, I think King Leon is fine, though he could have his price reduced to 320 if my suggested Bretonnian version of the General on Gryphon could be added, then that would give you more options. As well as access to a monster unit for Bretonnia. (I added these ideas to my previous suggestions, making it a total of 27 :))

Oh, and we discussed King Louen Leoncour, and we all seem to agree that his price is a bit too high. We wanted to lower his price to 320 points, as the General on Griphon may lack his utility, he also does have better stats then him. speaking of which, Could you also add a Bretonnian version of the General on Gryphon like you did for the Demigryph Knights? Tweaking the Keywords a bit while giving the charging lance a +1 to wound if he has charged as well. This could be the 260 point cheaper version of Leon, while giving Bretonnia a much needed monster unit. It could be called a Archduke on Gryphon or something similar

Oh? Well we definately missed that from the Alpha version, as we felt that was more then fair. We will let you know how it went Also, you mentioned working with several people, will the battle time include artwork as well?