SwampHeart
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Everything posted by SwampHeart
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Gavespawn's Artifact works best (IMO) on a Beastlord, he has a high volume of relatively accurate attacks with a built in re-roll of 1s to hit to help mitigate the downside. This is one of the few ways I think a Beastlord actually works really well in a list - he becomes a very solid blender. The command ability is very solid but requires planning, I think the best way to implement it is to summon spawn rather than purchase them in your list. When you purchase them their random movement can be very difficult to account for when trying to plan out a turn (stacking the command ability on a single unit multiple times is a game changer) - however when you summon them you know where and how they can come in and thus you can plan for it much more easily (and can bank the points needed so you can guarantee it). Unravelling Aura is solid, there's not much to it but its nice because its just an always on ability. The last trick with Gavespawn that I really like is using our 'make a spawn from a dead hero' ability to create really tricky scenarios for your opponent. This requires some understanding how pile in mechanics (closest enemy model) and things like that but you can really use that spawn to make it hard for your enemy to pile in or get closer to an objective with clever positioning. Sorry for the wall of text there but I hope that helps a little with Gavespawn specifics. Outside of those most of the army works just like any other BoC army - cheap bodies, a few good if glass hammers, very fast. My general suggestion is to focus on board control - learn to fan out fast score early, you're going to lose models by the handful but who cares if you jumped the lead early and can grind out protecting it. Hopefully this is more productive than complaining about SCE (its tired and old, they're an army and some people even like them).
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Looks like a pretty solid list but I think you're probably going a little too heavy into the characters. I'd drop the Volcanic Axe Beastlord for sure. I'd also probably swap out the 10 man Tzaangor unit for a few more Ungor units to give you more effective screening options. Those 2 changes free up 270 points - maybe pick up 2 Raider units for 160 and another Ungor unit for 60 - that'll leave you 50 left over for either an extra CP (always helpful) or an Endless Spell of your choosing. I think between the big block of Tzaangors and Enlightened you've got a solid hammer and a solid blob - using summoning should get you good backfield presence and you can use your Ungors to harass and block out the table.
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Can't use him, he's Brayherd. At least not in matched play.
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I actually don't like the GW models, I'm converting mine out of Marauder Horsemen horses and Gor bodies. Its a big time intensive but its easy green stuff work.
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They're a rock solid unit. That said I've tried them in large numbers and never been in impressed. I use mine in 5s just to run and grab objectives or charge light shooting units and the like. Their base size is a bit unwieldy and can be very hard to get wholly within for the GBS if they get too big. But as you said they are incredibly fast and relatively punchy - I normally use 2 units of 5 in many of my lists as very early game missiles and to deal with things like LoN dogs.
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That's why you need the All Seeing Eye + a Battalion! Worst case scenario you start out with 3 CP and best case I'm sitting on a bank of 6. Sure I never use anything but the 3 book ones but when you've got that many you can spend them freely.
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I've actually come around to really liking this. It means that I'm free to marshal my CP for the 3 main book abilities which are super useful. I don't mind spending 2 CP a turn for 2 6" runs because I know I'll still have CP for battle shock and that's my only other real need. At first it was frustrating because it doesn't feel great - not having this huge trigger that is a combo starter. But once I stepped back from it and realized that it really just helps move us more towards our primary competitive goal (aggressive, early game sustainable board control) I saw it as a strength. Its another element that I'm sure frustrates players who want BoC to kill and punch their way to victory but its actually a subtle strength that basically steers you towards winning with our army via stunting and stalling your way to victory.
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Can slotting in the Phantasmagoria from BoC be a valid option? I would think giving you the benefit of fitting several units (thus lowering drop count) as well as unlocking a decent cheap core screen in Ungors might be workable. Phantasmagoria is expensive at 200 points but do the benefits justify its inclusion or are cheap Kairics the better mandatory battle line option?
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EDIT - Not sure, re-read the specific rules and I don't know that I have a solid answer.
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Played in another 3 game 1 day-er this weekend. Decided to try something very different from my usual builds. Went 2-0-1 with the list and got 2nd (lost out to DoK) but it was fun to go in a different direction than usual. the list was: -Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - General (Ancient Beyond Knowing), Hailstorm -Great Bray Shaman - The Knowing Eye, Vicious Stranglethorns -Tzaangor Shaman - Gryphfeather Charm, Tendrils of Atrophy -40x Ungors - Spears -10x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungor Raiders -10x Ungor Raiders -10x Bestigors -6x Skyfires -6x Enlightened on Disc Phantasmagoria of Fate
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Thanks for the insight - I think its definitely a different vein than my original line on Skyfires originally was, but I'm going to change up my build and get some tests in with Skyfires now.
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It's a very open Battalion - basically 1-4 of any non tzeentch hero, 3-8 [Core Units, basically Gors, Ungors, Minos) and then 0-8 [Any other non tzeentch unit in the book], 0-2 Ghorgon or Cygor. It gives you the opportunity for your units to deal MWs to units in a radius when they die.
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You said "Ironically i think BoC battletome is just not good enough to field hordes of models competitively." which implies hordes are a bad competitive choice. I disagree, hordes are a great competitive choice, just for a different reason than their ability to kill things. You didn't say 'BoC horde armies aren't good at killing things' you stated flat out that BoC horde armies aren't competitive. If I've misunderstood the words you chose, I apologize.
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I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army. Sure they don't have access to tons of sweet synergistic buffs but that's not the point. The point to take advantage of your move 12-16 units of 20-40 models to create sustainable board pressure while you outscore. Yeah plague monks get lots of bonuses, one of those isn't being at the center of the table or deeper on turn one without spending a single CP. This type of thinking is why people are so in love with Desolating Beastherd - its killy so therefore it must be good. But it isn't, it attempts to reorient an army that is designed to win by creating early scoring advantages into an army that wins in combat. I've tally'd up close to 30 games at this point since the book came out including 2 different 1 day 3 round events and I've yet to be ahead against a skilled opponent on units destroyed at the end of the game. Yet somehow I've managed to come out the winner in the majority because my only goal was be ahead on objective points on turn 3. TL;DR - Stop trying to win games by being the best fighty army, learn board and objective control.
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You don't feel this is a waste of his overall combat potential? I've considered him as my herdstone character but at 180 points with a decent combat profile it seems like a waste to have him just sit the backline all game.
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I've watched his reports - what I don't agree with is that the generic traits and artifacts are better IF you don't have Shaggoth general. Also that does bring up our fairly limited battleline selection once you have a Shaggoth general. My current list for example only have 2 battle line if I go shaggoth rather than GBS or BL.
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So I've been heavily vacillating regarding the Shaggoth. What have folks overall experiences been with him and how did you use him? I've played him a handful of times and I just feel like he needs to be the general to be effective and if he's the general I'm going to need to give up Gavespawn to do so.
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He's a really nice tanky flying character which obviously helps in certain scenarios. I often make mine Tzeentch (not just because I'm already running Tzeentch BoC) because then he's a flying character wizard so he's a great addition for 3 Places, Duality and the like.
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Whatever the most recent medium it was released in which should be all metal for the aforementioned models.
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I was using Gors for awhile to some effect but only ever as a tarpit unit (they aren't an effective damage dealing unit at all). That said I've recently swapped to a unit for 40 Ungors and instead and for the same job they're better. The one weird edge case where I think Gors do better is actually because of their 32mm base - because its larger than 1" you get a slightly larger buffer for keeping your opponent away from an objective but again that's a pretty niche use of the unit. As far as damage dealt - the gors and ungors feel similar to me but the ungors are more durable thanks to the increased body count.
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I'd argue almost all math/theory hammer that is worth looking at has taken this into account given that AoS is a game of synergy. Sure some people just do the math in a pure vacuum but most of the time you'll see a slate of samples including various combinations of the buffs available to the unit. I think people sometimes get wrapped up in thinking that people who analyze units, engage in math hammer, and the like either don't test what they're talking about or are somehow ignoring other more random elements of the game and that simply isn't true. Obviously math and theory aren't the only tools you use to develop and list and an opinion on an army/units but they are part of it. I know that I could roll all 1s one day and my opponent all 6s, but that isn't an excuse (for me) to fall back on emotional reasoning (such as man my opponent had a good run of saves, really wish I had rend -2 instead of one). I'm also not suggesting everyone needs to play this way - different strokes for different folks (as I've talked about many times). Theory hammer and math hammer are just another tool in your tool kit to help you make good unit evaluations and build stronger lists. If you love Bullgors and they work for then have at it - but the counter is this, don't expect me to take your small sample size of success with the unit and alter my own data on them. I use Bullgors as an example here since they've been discussed quite a bit for a few pages. Gors are also an interesting example of this, I had success with 30 Gors over Ungors but in my tests using Ungors they have performed better at the desired role.
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Has anyone had a lot of success with this spell? Being a 7+ to cast and an army with 0 bonuses to cast I feel really reluctant to rely on using it.
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I've done both, I'm a pretty big fan of enlightened - I own 9 on foot and on disc. I use 40mm - that's what the basing FAQ says to use.
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They're the best screen for the 'safe' enlightened trick.
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It would only affect the base armor save - any 'save' taken after damage isn't termed a 'save' in game terms.
