SwampHeart

Overall solid - a few thoughts though: -Why the double Beastlord? Without an artifact of some sort his overall damage output is very poor and his CA far to situational to build around. You could save 90 points there pretty readily. -I wouldn't pay for the spawn - you're better off summoning them in. They're too unreliable movement wise to count on them being in place for the Gavespawn CA. You can instead summon in to the ability and save 100 points. -I'd also sub in 5 Centigors for the 10 hounds. You can summon in hounds early for back field pressure where Centigors are SUPER fast (when in range of a Bray Shaman) and pack more of a punch when they drink. For the same points you get a more effective unit (less bodies but the same wounds). -I'd consider dropping all your bestigors to 10. They're more flexible that way and become more effective bullets. Pick up another 120 points there - could even just go with 4 units of 10 even. -Are you intending for the Raiders to be a major damage source? If not I think MSU raiders is a better choice - gives you better board presence and lets you take more advantage of their pre-game move to block off various parts of the board. I think you've got a lot of good pieces - just a few here and there that I think you could better leverage.

I'd consider changing out your spell on your Shaggoth to hailstorm. Sundering Blades is great but without a bonus to cast I feel like it isn't reliable enough - sure its the average result but I seem to always find it doesn't cast the turn that matters. Other than that I think you've got most of the good components in the list - low drop, bestigors, etc. Cogs and the Wall are to taste - I've never had a ton of success with them, again because we get no bonuses to cast.

This is the key - its a marginal boost and the opportunity cost is incredibly high (i.e having an absolute awful artifact and command trait). You'll be able to reliably summon all the back field pressure need with Gavespawn and get access to a far better artifact and command ability (that you can summon in to).

I'm super curious as to how - I see 2 + 2D3 plus however many command points you're going to dump into it (which is a huge waste of CP). Ultimately you're gunning for a big summon when the best summoning you can do is the low end of the chart. Summoning hounds, ungors, and chariots is the best use of the points available. Additionally every CP you put into primordial call is one you can't spend on a guaranteed 6 to run, a re-rolled charged, or an auto pass battle shock and I find all 3 of those are far more useful than a few extra summoning points.

Really curious as to the decision of all herd here? Seems like you'd be better off playing Gavespawn by a wide margin.

Unfortunately they are not - so you can save yourself 160 points there pretty easily.

Yeah but it also means you're counting on a 7 for the charge (which is the average but still not something I'm fond of counting on). It also means you're spending a CP and telegraphing your plan to your opponent. I feel like if I played against it I'd just screen my vulnerable edges during my movement phase and block your available avenues. It could though be really effective during on the double turn, but then again so is just moving and charging the Chimera. I'm not saying its an entirely bad idea I just don't see it as being a consistently effective tactic. Feels more like a trick that'll work against a person once and then they'll know the read. On top of all that you have to take the really subpar Darkwalkers Gavespawn to make it work and spend a CP. Just doesn't seem like a good overall investment in cost/opportunity cost.

You're correct - I misread your original post and thought you were referring to Shadowbeasts. The Command Ability would work but why bother - on turn 2 with a chimera you should have the ability to charge anything you like regardless right? Why spend a command point to do what it can already do?

Unfortunately it doesn't work. Darkwalkers gives Warherd and Thunderscorn the ability to ambush as if they were Brayherd. The chimera doesn't have any of the relative keywords to be able to take advantage of this.

Regarding Centigors - I used the Marauder Horsemen horses and Gor torsos. It takes a little work to get everything right but if you have a Dremmel tool it makes a lot of the work pretty easy. I just ground down the saddles and straps and the like and then green stuffed fur over the top. I also suck at greenstuff/sculpting but fur is about the easiest thing you could try to do (and there are LOADS of tutorials out there).

I think it depends a lot on what your opponent has - as you said if they've got shooting they're going to be heavily prioritized. If you're facing an army with a lot of shooting then I think you play them aggressive, get in, shoot at something and try to chomp as much as you can. I will say that regardless of your opponent you want to use the Chimera to bully smaller units and more fragile units. The Chimera hits but against a big unit or a really tough unit he'll end up feeling underwhelming. Overall its definitely a 'touch' piece for sure - you've got to make a lot of your choices with the Chimera based on what else is on the table at the time.

Its not about if its interactive - its about if there is counter play. There is counter play to summoning because you understand its positioning and requirements so you can play to limit summoning avenues, deny resources, etc. Again - interactivity and counter play are not the same thing. I don't want to be able to stop your allegiance ability or main gimmick if you will. I want to be able to make decisions in the game that allow me to control the impact of that gimmick. And as I've already said - if you can't control the gimmick then its impact should be limited. The Bad Moon missile effect is a GOOD example of this concept.

Not really no - interactive is the magic phase, you roll dice, I roll dice. There is a push and pull on both players part - a mechanic with counter play simply means I have the opportunity to deal with how it impacts me. SCE Deepstrike has counter play - screening, movement, etc. The Nurgle ability has counter play because the targets have to be within 12" of one another so you can manage it. The Nurgle ability to move the dial with a spell is interactive because both players are involved in its usage. They mean two distinct things - no one is asking for Allegiance abilities to be interactive, I don't want to be able to turn off high tide. I just want the option to play well and mitigate it. And if I don't have that option (like with the Bad Moon) then ability should have a smaller impact to compensate (like the Bad Moon).

Counter play doesn't mean the rule has to be interactive. It means that you can counter it via your own play.

I agree - a perfectly reasonable army wide special ability.

Every unit on the table, one unit per quarter, any other clarification?

There's a bit of irony there right? Talking about people making sweeping statements about how the game will be ruined whilst making your own sweeping statement (where both are inaccurate). I don't think Sleboda has ever said it'll ruin the game, only that an army wide ability of random starfall probably isn't great game design. The various Nurgle abilities are all fine because they have ranges and specific triggers. The concern is if this Gloomspite ability doesn't have those same limitations. Will that be the case? We don't know and its fair to say 'Hey we don't know how this works so you can't say its bad game design' but I don't think the appropriate response is to bring up an oranges to apples comparison of Nurgle's MW abilities.

The issue is we don't know how its going work - if it is D3 to D3 then I don't think many people will have concern. But also the Nurgle ability does have a range limitation (all targets must be within 12" of one another) so there is a counter play element to its efficacy. Additionally for it to be available every turn you'd need the command trait (one you can't stop) and then it requires a spell to be cast - which means again there is counter play. I think the thing some people are worried about it (and its very hard to tell because again we have so little information) is that there will be no counter play at all. I'll wait until we see how it works because its all speculative until that point. I'm mostly here because I think a few people are being demonized for a view point that I can understand even if I don't share it.

I don't think its unfair to voice concern - maybe it is premature but what is a forum if not a place to discuss your hobby.

I don't presume to speak for Sleboda but I think he was more using that as an example of his potential concern. I'm reserving my judgement until we see the rule but I can say that if its just a purely random set of happenstance mortal wounds I don't think it'll contribute to positive game play experiences. But again - none of us know - it may be far more tame or there may be some counter play in it.

We don't know the rules so its impossible to say how similar or dissimilar this rule is from those. Most of those that you mentioned have some form of counter play (which this may also have, we don't know yet).

Yeah, I'm super pumped to lose my already fragile BoC characters to a mechanic I can't play around *eyeroll*. I'm going to hold back on declaring that the sky is falling because as others have said - we haven't seen the total mechanic. But I can say with certainty that no it doesn't only help the game.

Yes - you may stack it on a single unit as many times as you have CP to do so.

Its hard to describe in text but effectively the goal is to charge with Enlightened and Ungors and then use the Ungor pile-in to pin and block the unit you've charged where their only legal target (for most of the unit at least) is Ungors. This where clip charging becomes a big deal as well - you basically charge the Enlightened at a corner and then use your Ungor pile-in to prevent your opponent from piling towards the enlightened.

Yes - neither are exclusive to one another. You can include almost every unit in the army book with minimal requirements which allows you to easily achieve a one drop army. They reference the same thing generally speaking - the idea is to take full advantage of Tzaangor Enlightened (who get full re-rolls if an enemy has already attacked) so what you do (and there are several ways to do it) is get a screening unit (usually ungors) in front of Enlightened who are then killed off. After the Ungors are killed off you can pile in your Enlightened (who are right behind the Ungors) so that they get to attack with their full re-rolls but weren't made vulnerable to attacks at the same time. If you'd like to see it in action I'd suggest checking out Doom and Darkness's YouTube videos as its something he uses often. I do run Phantasmagoria of Fate because I like having a one drop army. Here are two of the lists I've used: List One - Gavespawn -Beastlord - Mutating Gnarlblade -Great Bray Shaman - General (Unravelling Aura), The Knowing Eye, Wild Rampage -Tzaangor Shaman - Tendrils of Atrophy -Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (Ally) -10x Bestigors -10x Bestigors -40x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungor Raiders -10x Ungor Raiders -5x Centigors -6x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc Phantasmagoria of Fate Prismatic Palisade The general focus of this list is using board control paired with summoning to create a lot of pressure on my opponent. You've got 3 hammers that are mostly there to help you slow down other hammer units but depending on the match up you can bully with them as well (especially with Wild Rampage). Positioning and good charges are a major part of being successful with this list - you want to make sure you've got really only one hammer in at a time or else you run the risk of losing a fragile unit before it gets to swing. Another major to key to success is good summoning - this list likes to spend points early, dogs and chariots are a favorite of mine. The idea is just to summon chaff to pressure objectives and either force your opponent to keep units on objectives or abandon them and let you score. List Two - Dragon Ogre Shaggoth -Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - General (Ancient Beyond Knowing), Gryph Feather Charm, Hailstorm -Great Bray Shaman - The Knowing Eye, Wild Rampage -Tzaangor Shaman - Tendrils of Atrophy -6x Dragon Ogres - 3x Crushers, 3x Cleavers -6x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc -6x Tzaangor Skyfires -10x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungors -10x Ungor Raiders -10x Ungor Raiders Phantasmagoria of Fate This list is my more elite list - it uses the Dragon Ogres as a defensive pivot (they're fairly durable with decent punch near the Shaggoth) while the main damage dealers are the 2 Tzaangor units. This list takes more advantage of the above mentioned 'screen charge' but also uses a similar summoning strategy as the first list. The primary idea with this list is to pick your fights and leverage your hammers to help you win specific sections of the board (again with the focus on winning the scoring game). I think the key to using this list well is understanding where you can successfully apply pressure, especially with the Skyfires (who need to be charging pretty often to really be worth their points). I certainly don't think these are the only viable lists but these are 2 I've had success and fun with it so hopefully it'll be a spring board for some ideas.